Elizabeth Wentworth - With so much evidence refuting it, why does she continue to be identified as the daughter of Thomas Wentworth?

Should mention these families may have stayed Catholic and gotten themselves in big trouble under Henry Vlll / Elizabeth.

Nice era and location. Sherwood Forest, the Renaissance. However you're right the Reformation must have created a lot of strain on the fabric of that society. Reverend William Denman was deprived of his living under Queen Mary for being married (and I think he was only a rector, idk much about ecclesiastical heirarchy).

Turns out he had a wife (unknown) and several children, only a few of which were recorded in the church registers after Elizabeth restored him to his office (not sure what happened to the records which surely must have existed before then).

So, although he seems to have been one of the first to embrace the Reformation, I'm sure many other family members (like his brother, Francis "a priest", etc.) -- took their own side in the controversy. So much politicizing of religion must have created a lot of hardship on both individuals and whole families.

Duplicates:

First Family Group:

Sir Thomas Ughtred

Catherine Ughtred

*********

Daughter and spouse:

Katharine de Sandford

Sir Edmund Sandford, Jr.

********

Their daughter and spouse:

Elizabeth Margaret Dunham

Sir Robert Dunham, II
_____________________________________________________________

Second Family Group:

Thomas OWTRED

Miss MAULEY

Katheren Owtred

********

Their daughter's spouse and in-laws:

Thomas Sandford

Margaret Musgrave

Sir Edmund Sandford

********

Their son and his spouse:

Sir Brian Sandford

Elizabeth Greene

********

Their son and his spouse:

John Thomas Sandford

Katherine Sandford

********

Their son and his spouse:

Brian Sandford

Anne Dixon

********

Their son and daughter:

John Santifort

Marir Newcomen

https://ia802605.us.archive.org/22/items/testamentaebora05claygoog/...

Sir William Fitzwilliam, Kt.

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/120358536/william-fitzwilliam

https://our-royal-titled-noble-and-commoner-ancestors.com/p1501.htm

Whose mother is Margaret Clarell Margaret Clarell, ‘Dame of the Garter’

(Seems like I saw a Clarell somewhere in the set above posted; and there is a Owtred/Clarell connection somewhere here, too.)

_______________________________________

Which brings me to this reference I found for "Edmund de Sandford" named as one of the executors to the will of the same Sir Wm. Fitzwilliam cited above in this post.

https://ia802605.us.archive.org/22/items/testamentaebora05claygoog/...

"Testamenta Eboracensia, Or Wills Registered at York, Vol. III" pp.211-2 (223-4 in the pdf file)

https://archive.org/details/testamentaebora05claygoog/page/n223/mod...

https://ia802605.us.archive.org/22/items/testamentaebora05claygoog/...

I found the Clarell/Fitzwilliam/Sandford connection. Here, "Johannem Sandeford, armigerum" (in the original Latin) is listed as one of the overseers(?) of his will.

Sir Richard FitzWilliam, Sheriff of Yorkshire

Wife, Elizabeth Clarell:

Elizabeth Fitzwilliam

Eldest son, heir apparent, and executor of his will:

Thomas FitzWilliam, Of Aldwark

Other of his children listed in his will are sons Richard and Edward, and daughters Anna and Elizabeth.

So far, I've found Edmund de Sandford and John Sandford mentioned in connection with Fitzwilliam wills. In the same book, no less. pp.246-8 this time.

https://archive.org/details/testamentaebora05claygoog/page/n259/mod...

Johanni Sandford is also listed in the 1485 Inventory of John Carter, Citizen and Tailor of York -- as either a owing or being paid a sum of money. (p.303)

http://www.nottshistory.org.uk/monographs/dunham1924/dunham05.htm

"History of Dunham-on-Trent...Etc." by Howard Chadwick (1924)

This history actually pulled from the local records and seems fairly objective.

"We have already suggested that the head of the Saxon Clan or family who first settled here was called Duna, and that the settlement became known as Duna's estate or ham, and consequently the members and their descendents as de Dunham.

"An early mention of a de Dunham is in the Red Book of the Exchequer, which dates from the time of Henry II. The date of the following entry is 1155: (Translation) "For land given to the Count of Flanders in Dunham £40. Robert son of Hugo de Dunham £112 clear". "The same (Count of Flanders) £7 for land in Darlton.""

The author runs down the history of Dunham-on-Trent and the Dunham family, down to Sir John Dunham of Kirklington.
_________________________________________

I've been trying to remember where I saw an estate that was originally owned by the FitzWilliams. I just saw it yesterday.

Here we have the Musgrave/Sandford connection, in visitations of Yorkshire 1563 and 1564:

https://archive.org/details/visitationofyork1618flow/page/n229/mode... (pp.216-17)

Starting at the top, Sir Thomas Musgrave, Knight of Hartley Castle married Elizabeth, daughter of William Fitzwilliam of Sprotbrough aka daughter of D'ni Dacres

Sir Thomas de Musgrave, III

They had Sir Richard Musgrave who married Margaret (or Elizabeth), daughter of Sir Thomas Betham (sister of Sir Edward Betham). There may be a generation or two missing between this and the first one:

Sir Richard Musgrave, Kt.

Then they had Thomas Musgrave who married Joan Stapleton:

Sir Thomas Musgrave of Hartley

Then he and his wife Joan Stapleton had Margaret Musgrave, wife of John Sandford.

Margaret Sandford (wife of John Sandford)

Margaret Sandford

John Sandford

NEVIL, from the top (p. 227)

Robert de Vere, 3rd Earl of Oxford, Surety of the Magna Carta

Isabel de Bolbec, Countess of Oxford

_________________________________

Hugh de Vere, 4th Earl of Oxford

_________________________________

Robert de Vere, 5th Earl of Oxford

Alice de Saunford

_________________________________

From that point I played a quick game of Saunford/Sanford hopscotch, which took me into Shropshire and a few other places, but mostly dead ends.

Brian Sandford

This MP for Brian Sandford is a duplicate of the second Brian Sandford above (son of John Sandford and Katherine Pickering).

"The most outstanding member of this family was Bryan Sandford of Thorpe Salvayn, who fought at Bosworth field in 1485 and was rewarded by Henry VII with the stewardship of Castre, co. Lincs."

http://sandfordfamily.org.uk/theophilus-sandford/bryansandford.htm

Bryan Sandford

This is the MP (I accidentally linked the duplicate again in my last post). If you look at the lines of duplicates I posted earlier, it fits in reasonably well. Just a lot of loose ends, and missing the sister named Elizabeth and the daughter named Katherine.

http://sandfordfamily.org.uk/theophilus-sandford/bryansandford.htm

He should be the the g-grandson of Sir Edmund de Sandford, who was supposedly the High Sheriff of York in 1410. And there he is on the list, under the House of Lancaster:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheriff_of_Yorkshire

http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1386-1421/member/sa...

http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1386-1421/member/sa...

The chapter on Thorpe Salvin in Hunter's South Yorkshire (volume 1 page 309) says

Hopkinson's pedigrees represent sir John Salvin, grandson to George Salvin by the coheir of the lords Mauley of Doncaster, as lord of this place, and disposing of it, as well as of Doncaster, in the reign of Henry VI, which is scarcely consistent with what he says in his account of the Sandfords, the family who succeeded the Salvins at this place, that Sir Edmund Sandford, who lived in the time of Edward III, obtained this manor by his marriage with Joan, daughter of sir Thomas Oughtred. The late Mr. Blore, the antiquary of Derbyshire, who was led to look into this question in his researches into the history of the family of Rodes of Barlborough, who were connected with Sandford, states that sir Edward Sandford married Idonea, daughter of Peter, the fifth lord Mauley, who, surviving him, married Sir Thomas Oughtred, K.G. who were both living 18 Ric. II.; which sir Edward was the father of sir Brian Sandford, and of John Sandford, of Tickhill, living 18 Richard II.

But that was written in 1829. I'm slightly suspicious as it doesn't seem to have become general knowledge. I'd want to see what Blore wrote.

1399 - Grant by Thomas de Nevyll, Lord of Halhamschir, Roger Darcy, rector of the Church of Treton, and William de Hykelton, rector of the Church of Sprotburgh, to Edmund de Sandford and Katherine his wife and their heirs, of the manor of Hertyll [Harthill] with all
appurtenances: to hold to them of the chief lords of the fee by the services due and
accustomed, with remainder to the right heirs of the said Edmund for ever

1404 - Grant - Edmund de Sandford to William de Croseby Chaplain of Thorp Salveyn and another. Grant Htyll [Harthill]

1410 - Grant - Roger Morton Chaplain, John (?) de Mordon and Robert de Chaterton to Edmund Sandford Knight and Katharine his wife. Grant of lands in Hertill [Harthill] and Wodhalle and

1427­/1428 - Deed - Brian Sandford son of Edmund Sandford, Kt., and John de Symys [?] of Hartill - lands in Herthill [Harthill]

1429­/1430 - Deed - Robert and Brian Sandford: lands, etc in Yorkshire

1447­/1448 - Release - Release from John Sandford Esquire to Richard Bamstre of Herthill of lands in Wodhall next Herthill [Harthill]

1461 - Grant - Edmund Fitz William Esquire to Sir Brian Sandford and another. Grant Herthill [Harthill] and Thorp Salvayne. Dated at Herthyll

3 Apr 1527 - Marriage settlement Indenture between Edmund Sandford and Edward Eire. Covenants on the proposed marriage of the former's son to the latter's daughter. Herthyll and Wodhall - and Edward [E]ire's Bond to Sandford dated 20th April 1527

1 Feb 1535 - Grant - E Sandford Esquire to Brian Sandford his son. Grant of lands in Herthill [Harthill] and Wodhall

These were all from deeds relating to Shropshire and Thorpe Salvin, etc. etc. etc. (not Yorkshire or Nottinghamshire). No Denmans or Dunhams.

https://explore.library.leeds.ac.uk/multimedia/19509/YAS_DD5.pdf

Hi Brian, I appreciate all your help, you really seem to enjoy the research. Thank you!

I have to correct myself now, because I said "not Yorkshire" but I find this very intriguing:

1429­/1430 - Deed - Robert and Brian Sandford: lands, etc in Yorkshire

My Brian Sandford Sir Bryan Sandford, I should have been a young adult around about that time.

Edmund de Sandford esq and his wife Idonia paid 20s poll tax at Thorpe Salvin in 1379.

https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/YKS/WRY/ThorpeSalvin/ThorpeSalvin...

So there was definitely a wife of that name. But was she a daughter of Ughtred 1 or Ughtred 2 or Mauley or English?

If this Edmund's widow married Ughtred (d 1401), as Blore claims, then he isn't the same Edmund who was the Sheriff.

The confusion seems to stem from the fact that two Sandford families, distantly related, liked using the same names, probably because both shared the same ancient ancestors.

"Robert II belonged to the Askham branch of the Sandford family, being distantly related to Robert Sandford I*, and thus by marriage to Thomas Warcop II* and his son, Thomas III*. He was the second son of Edmund Sandford, who purchased the manor of Askham in 1373 from Sir Robert Swinburne*. His mother, Idonea, was an heiress...

"Despite his improved wealth and status, Robert showed scant interest in public affairs, and continued to live quietly on his estates. At various times in his life he made enfeoffments of his property at Helton Flechan and Askham; and on the marriage of his son, Thomas, to Margaret Musgrave, in February 1451, he gave the couple his manor of Knipe and various other properties in Westmorland."

Footnote reads in part: "Some unnecessary confusion exists as to the identity of this Member. Cumb. and Westmld. Antiq. and Arch. Soc. n.s. xxi. ped. facing p. 232 states that there were two near-contemporary Robert Sandfords, one the second son of Edmund and Idonea Sandford..."

Yet even though they realized there were two Roberts, they continued to have difficulty figuring out who the other one really was.

http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1386-1421/member/sa...

The other one is here, I guess:

"Son and heir of Thomas Sandford (d.c.1380) of Sandford and Burton by his w. Mary. Married by 1380, Margaret, 2 daughters."

http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1386-1421/member/sa...

Or it could be that the two Edmunds (m. Idonea / m. Katharine) were of subsequent generations. I don't know which one was sheriff, because Geni doesn't have a profile of Edmund as Sheriff. So I guess no one has figured it out yet.

Complete Peerage 2nd edition, for Thomas Ughtred jr (Volume 12 part 2 page 161)

He m., Istly, Katherine, who d. 25 Nov. (year unknown) and
was bur. in the Friars Minor, York.(*) He m., 2ndly, before (1391-92)
15 Ric. Il, Idonea, widow of Edmund DE SANDFORD (living Hil.1382/3),
of Askham and Asby, Westmorland, da. and h. of Thomas L’ENGLYS, or
ENGLISH, of the same.

(*) Test. Ebor., vol. 1, pp. 242-43. She is said to have been the da. of Piers de Mauley the Fifth, 3rd Lord Mauley, by Margaret, said to be da. of Robert, Lord Clifford (Ughtred Ped., p. 401; ante, vol. viii, note sub MAULEY[1348 P]). A mazer bearing the Mauley arms is mentioned in Sir Th0mas’s will.

So Blore conflated Ughtred's two wives.

And Edmund who married Idonea was dead by 1391-2 and probably never knighted. The sheriff was another Edmund. Wonder who he married.

Apparently the first Brian Sandford was the son of Sir Edmund, and he was the son of Edmund esq.

Which means Thomas Ughtred jr was Sir Edmund's stepfather, as opposed to father-in-law as shown by the chart in Harleian #16.

Which could mean the old pedigree-mongers garbled it. But it could be they're both right. This would mean Sir Edmund's wife was his stepsister, or she became his stepsister when their parents married. It's not that uncommon.

According to official and other records, one of the Edmunds (wife, Katharine) likely had sons, Robert AND Bryan.

Then according to parliament history there was the other(?) Edmund (wife, Idonea) who had sons, Robert and William.

One source speculates that Edmund had two wives, in which case Idonea as his widow must have been the second one.

(The Robert, son of Thomas Sandford, is believed to have died around 1403; and Edmund's son Robert was living in 1429. Thomas's son, however is said to have held the family estates, i.e. Sandford Manor, etc.. Yet I don't doubt that Edmund was also plenty wealthy, being sheriff, marrying well, etc..)

Leaving the son of Thomas aside, I will now try to construct a hypothetical tree:

Edmund m. 1st Katherine Owtred and together they had a son, Bryan. Bryan had a son named John. Bryan's grandson was also named Bryan, and was probably the knight who fought the 1485 Battle of Bosworth for Henry VII. With Katherine he also had a daughter named Elizabeth, who married Robert Dunham.

Katherine died, and Edmund remarried, this time to Idonea Lengleys (aka L'English). Together they had first William (who died without issue) and then Robert (m. "his kinswoman", Elizabeth Thornburgh and had a son named Thomas Sandford.)

1410 - Grant - Roger Morton Chaplain, John (?) de Mordon and Robert de Chaterton to Edmund Sandford Knight and Katharine his wife.

So it really is possible that someone named "Edmund Sandford" was alive enough to be appointed sheriff in 1410. Idonea died in 1420. Their children must have been pretty young at the time, because William died without issue and Robert lived 40 more years, until ca.1460.

...I think there are reasons why this genealogical problem hasn't already been solved sastisfactorily. Maybe it is partly because too many pieces of the puzzle are missing.

Hopefully this will be some good news for anyone interested in the Sandford family connections. This is the pedigree chart for SANDFORD OF ASKHAM on page 115 of the Visitations for Cumberland and Westmerland taken in 1665.

https://archive.org/details/pedigreesrecorde00sainrich/page/114/mod...

This is the family that wound up with the Sandford Manor estate and had members of the family represented in Parliament. This family's patriarch was Edmund, who married Idonae/Idonia, daughter of Sir Thomas L'English/English. I still don't know for certain if this was the man who was supposedly High Sheriff of Yorkshire in 1410, under the House of Lancaster -- but I believe it is possible.

This family is only distantly related to my Sandfords of Yorkshire and vicinity. The Sandfords of Askham (cited here) lived further north, close to the borders of Scotland; and I believe also owned a manor house near London, for use of members of parliament.

Please note that Robert (m. Elizabeth Thornbury) is actually the younger brother of William, and that both are sons of the elder Edmund and Idonia English. William died young without issue, so Robert was next in line for the inheritance of the estate and titles.

There has been some speculation (even on my part) that this Edmund might have married twice. But now that I see he was not closely connected to Yorkshire, I feel much more confident that the Yorkshire records showing another Edmund with a wife named Katherine and sons named Brian and possibly also a Robert -- are a separate family group.

I feel very confident that the Bryan Sandford on my family tree in Tickhill, Yorkshire, which is near the Nottingham county line, is the son of Edmund and Katherine (Unknown), because I find evidence of them in Yorkshire records. However, I continue to search for their marriage, burial, and birth records, for further corroboration.

And I think at this point, in the absence of conflicting evidence, it is fairly safe to assume that the Elizabeth who married Robert Dunham is probably also from the Yorkshire Edmund. I think she must be the elder Bryan's sister, aunt to my Katherine (Sandford) Denman.

And at this point I also agree that her mother (Edmund's wife) is probably Katherine Owtred.

Yay, such progress ! I am just believing whatever you say - Sandfords are not computing for me, yet.

Thank you, Erica. That's exactly how I felt yesterday. I'm sure there is still very much more to learn about them, but it is such a relief to finally be able to differentiate the two Edmunds.

https://archaeologydataservice.ac.uk/library/browse/details.xhtml?r...

Chart at the end.

Not very helpful. Thinks William had a son Robert, who was really his younger brother.

No mention of the sheriff or Thorpe Salvin.

For what it's worth, Ragg's correction to his chart is here, p. 339

https://archaeologydataservice.ac.uk/library/browse/details.xhtml?r...

William had no issue and his brother Robert was the heir.

Nothing new here.

Nicolson and Burn (1777)

https://archive.org/stream/historyantiquiti01nico#page/423/

Not all right, but a very good attempt for its day

Thank you so much, Brian. I really enjoy learning about the history of England, and the links you give us are very helpful.

You might enjoy this, Brian Johnson and Erica Howton

"A cursory relation of all the antiquities and familyes in Cumberland" by Edmund Sandford (1675).

This is a later reprint, and as the title implies it is quite brief. It's only about 70 pages, so not very many individual Sandfords mentioned here, but it does give us a first-hand account of the origins of the Cumberland/Askham homeland, by a "cadet" member of the Sandford family, named Edmund. There are at least three very brief pedigrees, Musgrave, Skelton, and Denton/Richmond. I have to read it later, after I get some sleep.

https://archive.org/details/cu31924104091438/page/n55/mode/2up?q=sa...

Amazing