Elizabeth Wentworth - With so much evidence refuting it, why does she continue to be identified as the daughter of Thomas Wentworth?

Started by Private User on Monday, October 19, 2020
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Ah, Debra, if only .. :)

There are some terrific family books, in my own case the Moss Record can’t be beat. But precious few were any good at all on English origins.

I am “lucky” enough to have been subjected to the worst of the worst - The Reed Book. There were something like 11 Reed - Read - Reades arriving to Colonial America, but according to Reed (I think he was FC) they all descended from the noble family seated at Maidstone.

What gives me pause about Margaret Stafford are some points.

1. There is a disputed record; she either married “Robert Dinham of Devon” or she didn’t marry at all. So we can’t eliminate by “married elsewhere.”

2. Humphrey Stafford and Ann Neville must have left more records. I don’t think it’s right to dismiss without at least an attempt to examine Probate, property, IPMs, etc. Visitations are notoriously poor at the Tudor generation, and we’ve already seen that the Notts VisitTion

(Continued)

Is either “off” or incomplete.

3. Dunham’s did marry in to some of the same families, so there is an affinity in place.

4. The Wikipedia article for Humphrey Stafford describes him as taking especial care to marry his daughters off well, and that it cost him quite a lot in dower etc. it occurs to me that by the time he reached daughter 7, he was ready to get her into a wealthy family.

5. Since this Dunham line daughtered out (No one surviving), there was no reason to trumpet the royal connection ... until I.C. Dunham fabricated his ancestry.

Who is Margaret Stafford? I don't find her on the Donham pedigree at all. On that visitations chart I only find Robert Donham/Dunham married unknown STANFORD of Derbyshire.

You must be relying on some other source that identifies her as a Stafford.

I agree with you about looking into the family of the Duke of Stafford, since that ought to make it easy to rule her out of a marriage with any Dunham -- if she exists at all. I think Wikipedia just picked up on the hearsay evidence out there.

Nothing wrong with that visitation pedigree for Dunham, except it doesn't SAY "Stafford" or "Margaret" for that matter. Just "_____ Stanfford, of Derbyshire".

The Dunham family is also represented in the Yorkshire visitations. Same family.

"Since this Dunham line daughtered out (No one surviving), there was no reason to trumpet the royal connection ... until I.C. Dunham fabricated his ancestry."

Yep, I bet he made great conversation at the dinner table. :D

Erica Howton I see it now!! Happy dance!

On the Yorkshire chart the same Robert Dunham is married to Elsabeth, doughter of Sir Edmund Sandford of Darbyshyre.

************************************************************

It confused me for a moment, but here it is. It is on the Yorkshire 1563-1564 Visitations:

https://archive.org/details/visitationofyork1618flow/page/n113/mode...

Here is the father-in-law for your Robert Dunham. Elsabeth/Elizabeth is the sister of Brian Sandford. And I just happen to have a Brian Sandford on my very early (Nottinghamshire era) family tree. My Brian is the father of Katherine, wife of John Denman, Esq.

So my Katherine Sandford might be the niece of this Elizabeth Sandford.

Sir Edmund Sandford

Sir Edmund Sandford

He's been duplicated, naturally. But not very well developed.

Nice, going to study.

https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000157628839862 Has John l & ll confused and the children born in the 1490s by a wife born 1499. So yeah, the Notts Visitation has issues. :)

Yorkshire Visitations for the win. They even have the birthdates for John ll’s children, I’m adding to profiles now.

Yay!!

I can add images of the Yorkshire pedigree if you like (already have them copied to my personal files).

Got it! Can you work on the Sandfords? Bet you they’re in pieces on Geni.

This is the authentic Visitation, 1530

https://books.google.com/books?id=ve0OvvM9qr8C&pg=PR3

They didn't do any more, they were extinct.

The charts in Harleian #4 and #16 are the attempts of different heralds to extend the pedigree.

Erica Howton yes, I would be happy to do as much as I can with them. Can you make that private Sandford profile public? The merge comparison shows them to be duplicates.

Sir Edmund Sandford

https://www.geni.com/search/matches?id=6000000004575044749&src=...

Brian Johnson thank you for the link, I look forward to checking it out.

Incidentally, I was busy looking for info on the Sandford family when I saw your post. I have a few sources already including a genealogical book on the family that I'm having trouble locating, but I know it's here somewhere. I'll explore other sources as well.

On page 6 of Brian's book, Heraldic Visitation of the Northern Counties in 1530, Volume 41 (which can be read, although not in pdf from my location):

THIS YS THE DYSSENT OF SYR JOHN DONHAM OF KERLYNGTON

[First, it describes the arms, which are quarterly. Then it begins with Robert.]

ROBERT DONHAM, married doughter of Sansford of Derbyshire.

[Afterwards, it only lists Robert's son, John Donham; and his grandson, Sir John Donham.]

So far (and it's really early, first glance) I get from this that it doesn't change anything we already learned about these three gentlemen. My best guess would be that the later editions simply added more information, getting it mostly correct. Perhaps the Nottinghamshire clerks drank too much beer that day.

Ha!

Sir Edmund Sandford De zombified and there’s a Musgrave wife. Did she wander over from Cumberland?

Actually this works well with “Dinhams of Devon”, which Looks like the origins of Robert. They were sheep keepers and cloth merchants. So were the Musgraves when they weren’t raiding the Borderlands.

Ha!

Sir Edmund Sandford De zombified and there’s a Musgrave wife. Did she wander over from Cumberland?

Actually this works well with “Dinhams of Devon”, which Looks like the origins of Robert. They were sheep keepers and cloth merchants. So were the Musgraves when they weren’t raiding the Borderlands.

Tong visited Sir John at home in 1530, and wrote down what he was told on blank sheets. The manuscript used for the book was a copy, but it was an early copy, with no indication of being doctored at all, though copyists can never be relied on for exact spelling. There's another copy, but they weren't compared. However, this is one of the most reliable of all the published Visitation books.

Harleian #4 (Vis Notts) contains a number of known major errors. The manuscript it's based on was a workbook compiled by Richard Mundy, an arms painter who lived about 1630. Mundy was a friend of the heralds and could get access to their Visitation records. But he didn't copy them verbatim. His style was to combine them, and make additions of his own, sometimes whole extra pedigrees from dubious sources. In this case, he converted the 1569 pedigrees from written-out format to chart format, and then joined on the 1614 charts. But the record for 1614 had already been doctored at the College.

It's unlikely there was a Dunham pedigree in the 1569 record, as the last of the line was dead by then. There was one in the 1614 record, because it's also in another copy, made by other arms painters. But it's obviously an insertion, so we don't know where it came from. Especially we don't know why Sansford was changed to Stanford. The double-f means nothing because there's "Godffrey" Foljambe in the same chart.

Harleian #16 (Vis Yorks) is from a heralds' workbook. It was started by Flower, who copied out previous Visitations and added his own. Then it passed through various hands and a lot of additions were made. Many charts were extended and many extra pedigrees were added. Some of the added material is guesswork and some is blatantly fake.

All the same, it would have been an interesting book if edited properly. But Norcliffe took away a lot of the value by rearranging the pedigrees alphabetically and not noting the different hands. So we're left with important early information all mixed up with total junk, and we have to try to figure out which is which. In general it's iffy to rely on anything in this book that you can't find in a better source.

The compiler of the Dunham chart was aware of a line from Sir Edmund Sandford back to Edward I (so he thought. It's not right, but the heralds were all at sea with ancient aristocracy. The editor's correction isn't right either). So identifying Robert Dunham's wife as Sir Edmund's daughter looks a bit "convenient".

There's another Dunham chart in the manuscript that passes for Glover's Visitation of 1584-5, but it's copied straight from Tong and not extended at all. However, it does say "..... dau. of ..... Stafford, of co. Derby", so Isaac can't be blamed entirely for bringing Staffords into it.

The Musgraves had a presence in Yorkshire, with a mayor and a couple of sheriffs, etc..

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Heraldic_Visitation_of_the_Nor...

Margaret Sandford

This Margaret (Musgrave) Sandford's mother was a Stapleton.

Will of Richard Basset of Fledborough, Notts

https://archive.org/stream/testamentaebora07claygoog#page/n159/

Mentions a trust deed of 1506-7 - trustees included John Dunham, knight, and John Dunham, esq.

We are filling out nicely. I had done a lot on the Bassets over the last couple of days.

I’m getting a picture of North of England landed gentry who flew a bit under the radar, and / or daughtered out. Am I right?

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