James Monroe, 5th President of the USA - Presidents and Charlemagne

Regarding Trump, I read this, Andrew Mackenzie "No formal record of Malcolm's parents but according to local oral tradition he was known as Calum mac Anndra - Malcolm son of Andrew. The use of the name Andrew suggests that these MacKenzies were of the family known as the Babaich, who claim descent from a follower of Barbara Stewart, daughter of Andrew, Lord Avondale, and wife of Roderick, the last chief of the Macleods of Lewis."

Barbara Stewart there would be a gap of 2-3 generations unknown of course, between them if they were connected,

https://www.geni.com/path/Charlemagne+is+related+to+Roderick-MacLeo...

Ha!

I would think there is a chance that the two Mackenzie s in Trump's tree have some kind of connection...

Andrew Mackenzie

John MacKenzie

They are related: https://www.geni.com/path/John-MacKenzie+is+related+to+Andrew-Macke...

Ann MacLeod

...daughter of Donald Campbell

and

Ann MacLeod

...daughter of Alexander MacLeod and Ann MacKenzie ; mother of Malcolm "Calum" MacLeod

were in-laws: https://www.geni.com/path/Ann-MacLeod+is+related+to+Ann-MacLeod?fro...

Ann MacLeod (daughter of

Scratch the last line in my post above, "Ann MacLeod (daughter of", please. I meant to erase it.

Ann (Campbell) McLeod is the mother of Colin MacLeod (son of Donald MacLeod)

and Ann (McLeod) McLeod is the mother of Colin's wife, Henrietta Effie MacLeod (daughter of Alexander MacLeod)

No blood relationship between Colin MacLeod and his wife, according to Geni.

Max Eugene Monroe I don't understand your reply; Ha!

Well, only ca.2 % of all people in our world seems to be interested in genealogy, for the rest, it's probably a big joke, ha, + lol!

Private User I also wondered what that was all about, but on second glance:

Max Eugene Monroe is James Monroe, 5th President of the USA's fourth great nephew!

Directly descended from the president's brother.

https://www.geni.com/path/James-Monroe-5th-President-of-the-USA+is+...

James Monroe, 5th President of the USA is my 22nd cousin twice removed's husband.

James Monroe, 5th President of the USA is Ulf Martinsson's 22nd cousin twice removed's husband!

It wasn't that long ago they, someone, cut off James Monroe, 5th President of the USA lines, leaving him with only 24 instead of 10000 plus ancestors.

Max Eugene Monroe
No in-law relationship was found.
No blood relationship was found.

Private User Re: "The use of the name Andrew suggests that these MacKenzies were of the family known as the Babaich, who claim descent from a follower of Barbara Stewart". Note the use of the word follower. They are not claiming descent from Barbara Stewart, just from someone who worked for her.

Roderick MacLeod is the son of Colin MacLeod and Henrietta Effie MacLeod and grandson of the two Ann McLeod in-laws mentioned in my previous post.

Tamás Flinn Caldwell-Gilbert

You wrote, " just from someone who worked for her".

But it's your intrepretation of, "who claim descent from -a follower of- Barbara Stewart".

I read it differently, a follower of, become, spread out from = someone that emanated from Barbara = some successor from her marriage with Roderick MacLeod, 10th of Lewis, and not his other wife, as a consequence for this reason, hence the naming of the group Babaich.

One of the many synonyms to the word follower, is actually also the word heir, (at least in Sweden), so i take it as some offspring, descendant of her, Barbara.

It does make sense that "follower" could mean descent of...

If I were listing my family, I may say my 5th great grandparents were such and such...followed by such and such...and so on...

So I would be a follower of them in descent.

This was the profile that was cut off,
David Munro, 3rd of Katewell
as the father to
Major Andrew Monroe

David was the fourth great grandson of,
John Munro, 11th Baron of Foulis

It is, (thru some other line), still fully possible, that the President James Monroe, would be something like a fifth grandson to John Munro, and this is the more likely line in that clan.

Follower can mean "successor". I think it can also refer to a descendant whose exact relationship is too hazy to ascertain. Of course, successor means either heir or direct descendant.

https://www.etymonline.com/word/follower

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/progeny

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/successor

http://files.lib.byu.edu/family-history-library/research-outlines/E...

https://www.archives.com/genealogy/family-history-mcclure.html

Etymologically the word has both concrete and abstract meanings, all originating from ca.1200. I would tend to apply more concrete meaning in the context of discussions of genealogical lineages. There are synonyms for the abstract meaning (disciple, servant) that would allow for more clarity.

There is a definite similarity between the terms "successor" and "follower".

I hope this link works right. It is an example of the authentic Scottish usage of "follower" from "Hereditary Succession in the Protestant Line unalterable. In answer to the Scots Bill of Security" (1619), p. 18 of the pdf copy:

"The third was Don Liberche, who assisted King Don Alfonso, at the taking of Lisbone, and from him, and his Followers, the towne of Almada tooke her name, of which they were Lords..."

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Hereditary_Succession_in_the_P...

https://books.googleusercontent.com/books/content?req=AKW5Qadjc5Kol...

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Hereditary_Succession_in_the_P...

In modern English, "The town of Almada was named after Don Liberche and his followers."

This little book is clearly on the subject of genealogy and "hereditary succession" is even part of the title.

I don't know what causes it, but a lot of my "working" links later turn up "broken" only on this website.

Hugh Munro, 4th of Balconie also fits to be the grandfather of the president (as a couple of others), married to a cousin, (at this point in time, there would be a lot more such intermarriages within that clan), making me convinced that between Andrew Monroe and John Munro 11th Baron, or his father, any N.N. Munro sons in 4-6 generations would connect them, so even with unknown, or more exact names on them, they could be represented as a single row of 5 N.N.,sons just in order to build the line within that clan to connect them with the president. (We don't have to do it here on Geni, but in a thought cogitation it fill a purpose).

Max Eugene Monroe would be my ca. 20 to 22nd cousin according to that, and it would be so regardless some few missing names.

In Spanish, the same quote I posted above translates "followers" as "family".

El tercero, don Liberche,que se hallò con Rey don Alfonso en la tomade Lisboa, y del y de los suyos tomò nombre la villa de Almada, de que fueron señores.

The third, Don Liberche, who met King Alfonso in the capture of Lisbon, and of his and his family took the name of the town of Almada, of which they were lords.

https://books.google.com/books?id=uaf3iO7nqfoC&pg=PP4&lpg=P...

https://translate.google.com/#view=home&op=translate&sl=es&....

I think what happened was "family" or "progeny" sometimes got loosely translated from Spanish and/or other languages (Latin perhaps, etc.), in the older English (and Scottish?) texts, as "followers". I doubt that it caused as much confusion for the old genealogists as it does for current/modern generations.

Who is Barbara Stewart?

She's here

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Rory

The Mackenzies were the family of the 1st wife. She was divorced, starting a feud. Why any Mackenzies would be supporters of the 2nd wife is a puzzle.

Not divorced at all.
In 1541, Roderick took for his second wife, the **** widowed Barbara Stewart ****from Orkney, daughter of Andrew, Lord Avondale, and by this lady had a son, likewise named Torquil, and surnamed Oighre (the Heir, to distinguish him from the disowned Torcuil). About 1566, the younger Torquil was drowned along with sixty attendants in a storm while sailing from Lewis to Skye across The Minch.

This younger Torquil, halfbrother to Torquil, died at an age of ca. 20-25, no children recorded, but he could as well have had one or two bastards, not allowed to inherit anything, they could in fact be the missing link between Barbara Stewart and the president Trump. I think it's impossible to check out.

Siobhan (Mackenzie) "eloped with a cousin of his, after which Roderick divorced her."

Two bastards are mentioned, as supporters of the Mackenzie faction. But they wouldn't be connected with Barbara Stewart or Andrew Lord Avondale.