Anastasia Irene Maria Monomachos of Byzantium MONOMAHINYA - Parents Identity of Anastasia Irene Maria Monomachos of Byzantium MONOMAHINYA

Maria Skleraina

https://books.google.se/books?id=a5GFAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA147&dq=M...

Byzantine Empresses: Women and Power in Byzantium AD 527-1204. By Lynda Garland, page 147.

The link broke and didn’t show me, but we should be able to find.

It’s a Routledge Book (quality publisher) and we consulted for Empress Theodora’s family. Lynda Garlands publications page here:

https://researchers.uq.edu.au/researcher/13969

https://books.google.com/books?id=6JY2fpMTkKwC&lpg=PA150&vq...

Awesome information, Erica!

I got a screen shot before the link broke again - I urge to read the whole bio for Zoe, it’s spicy!

https://media.geni.com/p13/94/fe/33/c4/5344485d7684e2b5/594eb51a-81...

The “Greek Princess” name is not given and her parents not confirmed, and sadly, footnote 81 didn’t make it into the view.

We’re getting there, though.

I read it! It was like reading a novel! lol Quite a romance!

So was empress Zoe into magic?

Russian Wikipedia has a good article on the Greek princess, I sent through google translate.

Monomakhina
Birth
OK. 1030/35
Constantinople (?)
Death
1067
Genus
Monomakhs
Father
Constantine IX Monomakh (?)
Mother
Konstantin's wife - Elena Sklirena or his mistress - Maria Sklirena (?)

—+

So they’re not certain either.

Here’s more comments

http://genealogy.obdurodon.org/findPerson.php?person=monomakhina

Monomakhina of Byzantium
b. unknown – d. 1067 [1]
Marriages
Vsevolod Iaroslavich Andrei (m. ca. 1053) [4]
Vladimir “Monomakh” Vsevolodich
Ianka Vsevolodovna
The youngest of Jaroslav ’s sons, and some say the favorite, Vsevolod was the last of the Jaroslaviči to marry. His first marriage was to a “cěsarica gr´kyna,” [5] a Greek princess, who has no name in the PVL. Because of the typical lack of a name, historians have felt at some liberty to assign her one, as well as a familial line. The most common ascription is that she was the daughter of Constantine IX Monomachus, the third husband of Empress Zoe. [6] Like so much else in regard to these marriages, this is conjectural, as Byzantine sources do not record her marriage or many details of Constantine IX’s family.144 The ascription to the house of Monomachus comes from the famous appellation of her firstborn son,Volodimer Monomax. While this leads an observer to the conclusion that Volodimer had a connection to the house of Monomachus, [7] it does not necessarily require his mother to have been the daughter of the most famous member of that house. Perhaps a safer assertion would be simply that she was a Monomaxina, and to stipulate that her exact parentage is unknown. [8] Even were she not the daughter of Constantine IX, there would have been no question that he could have, had he wished, arranged marriages for all of the members of his extended family. Thus, for the purposes of her participation in the world of dynastic marriage it is not necessary that she be the daughter of Constantine IX, just a Monomaxina.

Darnit. lol I thought the info Markku had shared had shed more light on the controversy of whether she was Constantine's daughter or not and this puts us right back where we started. That certainly does have a lot of references. Erica, at this point I have to bow to your expertise as to whether the info from Markku carries more weight than these other sources that state it's all conjecture. I guess you can tell, I really like the info Markku shared. There is such detail there.

Just for your information as it seems like you actually do not know anything at all Erica.
Quote
"Thus, for the purposes of her participation in the world of dynastic marriage it is not necessary that she be the daughter of Constantine IX, just a Monomaxina."

Reply
Constantine IX Monomachos reigned11 June 1042 – 11 January 1055. Under this time he was Emperor. Before that he was not an Emperor. None of his sibblings would have been prince or princess, not before or after his reign. Only his children would have been entitled prince or princess, "Princess is a regal rank and the feminine equivalent of prince (from Latin princeps, meaning principal citizen). Most often, the term has been used for the consort of a prince, or for the daughter of a king or prince." If it says married to a Greek princess, it can only mean the daughter to the Emperor, and the emperor at that specific time was Constantine IX.

Traditionally the kings and emperors at war with another royal house, would if needed to avoid defeat offer a tribute to the opponent as a truce, by marrying a daughter to the king in war with, or to one of his sons, this tribute was common all around Europe for a very long time, it's a practise that require that the one to be married away actually is the one they say she is, if not, a sister, or cousin, it must be negotiated and approved by the other part. In a way, this practice is considered as a small loss in prestige for the king or emperor, and there will be a chance that it will be silent down in the records.

The counterpart would not easily be fooled, by a king or emperor giving away somebody other under false pretension that this actually was a princess, when it actually could have been a decoy to fool away the opponent, they were in fact both interrogated and examined very thoroughly regarding their skills and education, a pesant girl would not have had a chance to pass as a princess, and if another noble woman pretended to be one (daughter of the ruler), she would have needed to act for the rest of her life, such a women would not be that easily to find not even 1000 years ago.

https://www.geni.com/discussions/216948?msg=1441772 As a curator I rely on written records and citations, and in this area of Byzantium, on historian interpretation.

There seems consensus she was of the house of Monomachus and she was nobility. There seems consensus she was known by varying names and they point to the same person. But there does not seem to be proof that she was in fact his daughter. I’ve been uploading all the references I can find. Feel free to continue.

Based on what you are saying then, @Ulf Martinsson , if it were the case of the king giving his daughter for marriage to keep the peace, it could be likely that the resulting relationship was not necessarily a good one. One theory then, could be that she has no name due to the fact that once she produced a child for him, Vsevolod may have decided to end the relationship and have all records of her existence destroyed. (as I understand it, people can sometimes be petty that way)

Plus, I don't believe you need to be rude to make a counter point. Erica does good work. She knows quite a bit, and like everyone else here, she is merely trying to keep the stories straight.

Have a great day.

Thank you, Jerry. It’s an interesting area. BTW the Byzantines referred to themselves as Romans, not Greeks; and from what I can find of historian interpretation, she was “the Russian princess.” (Not helpful). And that the Kiev people were eager to take her in - i.e., a prize chip in the bargain.

If she was a Constantine daughter I agree would most likely be from Maria, not her cousin Helen Monamachos The earlier wife.

Reasoning: she would have made a better marriage.

It's sorry that many of you seems to be a lot unrealistic when it comes to solve problem, or as I read it, invented problems. Theodosios Monomachos was the father of Constantine IX Monomachos, Constantine was also the nephew of another Theodosius Theodosius Monomachos who tried and failed to continue as Emperor 1056, was exiled and vanished, anyway, thus, his father was a brother to Constantine but not known by name and not an Emperor. So when you talk about the House of Monomachus, we still only have one profile in focus for the candidate as the father to the princess, one wo was Emperor, lived under the right timeframe to have a daughter to be married 1046, this only fits on him, the daughter was young, had her first child 7 years after marriages. Thus, it was NOT a sister to Constantine, any would have been older than that, she could have been a sister to his Nephew Theodosios, but he was not an Emporer at that time 1046, he tried 1056 and failed.

When you create problem by stating that she was a menber of that family, but you do not know how, you make it hard for other to take you seriously, the only gulty solution is the only solution you reject and you do it in such a way that you must invent a lots of IF, and OR, and what about etc. that leads long away from the simply facts that she must have been a princess, she must have been the daughter of the emperor at 1046 and the emperor that year was Constantine.

Question, the name of the father to Theodosius Monomachos is not known either, should we then delete this profile Spiros Monomachos and let the son float freely alone? Suck on that one.

Ulf, maybe you’re willing to dispute with published historians and genealogists, but I am not. Find citations. Upload to profiles. There’s a case, but you are not an expert in the histories of Kiev and Byzantium, and no one is going to quote you (or me) as that expert - even If it’s “logical.” We don’t know enough.

I'm not the one disputing experts, they agrre that she belonged to Monomachus, they also agree that there is a lack of contemporary sources, but they still (some of them) actually can place her where she ought to be. You can't.

This is how you usually reason,

Spiros Monomachos oh no, think IF he had a brother, another N.N. Monomachos, IF so, it's only 50% chans that the one we now hav as the father to Theodosius is right, or WHATABOUT IF there was yet another brother, then it's only 33% chans that we have set up the right father, whos name we don't know, the only solution we can see, is to disconnect Theodosius from his father, because we can't assume that it's 100% right, best so.

Citations. :)

It's quite tragic to see how you lack the ability to read and understand what you're reading.

In MedLands it says "Possible relative of Emperor Konstantinos IX, the precise relationship (if any) is not known: 1. [MARIA] [Irena] ([1030/35])-1067)."

then it says, " No doubt her belonging to the Monomachos family has been assumed, firstly because her son is generally known as "Vladimir Monomakh", and secondly because Emperor Konstantinos IX Monomachos ruled in Byzantium at the date of her marriage"

Well, NO DOUBTS, exept from you who cut the line.

Then we can speculate how the titles passed on among the sibbling to any emperor, or to cousins, or maybe parents etc, but they did either belonge to a dynastic clan, or they did not. Monomachus did NOT. He married into the title Emperor. 1 This means that he, only and not his sibblings, or any cousins held any equivalent titles as "prince, princess", He had the title Emperor, only his child could have any title as prince or princess, his wife Zoe would have been the Emperess, the other ones had no such titles.

3 things did survive without the need of contemporary documents.
1. Her title. Princess
2. Her nationality, Greek
3. Her family name, Monomachos

Doing the math can only place her as a child of Constantine.
His wife Zoe was born around 980, she was absolutely not the mother.
She was married away as a very young girl, likely under 10 years old.
Maria Skleraina is the only wife called a mistress, because the church would not recognize that marriage. Maybe, he had a bunch of other nameless mistresses, but of them we do not know anything, not even if they existed.
One among all the historians that place her as the mother is the Swede Alf Henriksson.
Anyway, what we should be 100% sure of, is her father Constantine because he was the only one that could produce a princess.

Citations with links. We cannot cite “Ulf’s logic” for all the people who will look at the citations so far and note the published “uncertainty.”

Ulf, I am more than happy to go against Wikipedia, if need be. But it “has” to be a published “authority“ making the claim. I imagine you can find where I cannot.

HI all! how many of my nice dashes -linck in the area, I must have already passed around here ;D
(the world is Mine! But I didn't take administration so I was unaware of this nice hot discussion:))
I think Irene of Alania is connected to Constantine IX Monomachos, byzantine emperor by mistake.

I found an exhaustive French description of the numbering of his loves (I would say to start by numbering them chronologically:)

Lynda Garland again.

http://www.roman-emperors.org/annadal.htm

It is possible that this cousin Irene was the 'Alan princess', a hostage at court who had been mistress of Zoe'sthird husband Constantine IX Monomachus.

In this case she would have been in Constantinople since c. 1054. However, Isaac Comnenus' wife was still producing children in 1096 and it is therefore unlikely that she had been Constantine's mistress more than 40 years earlier. It would also seem unlikely that Anna Dalassena would have sanctioned her son's marriage to an ex-imperial mistress, though in the interest of the family she might have been prepared to overlook an earlier palace liaison.

Repost:

Separated Irene of Alania from Guarandukht Monamachos (the 5th partner).

French Wikipedia has the daughter as legitimate and from the 2nd wife

https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantin_IX#Unions_et_post%C3%A9r...

Erica Howton wrote
"There seems consensus she was known by varying names and they point to the same person. But there does not seem to be proof that she was in fact his daughter. I’ve been uploading all the references I can find. Feel free to continue."

So if not Constantines daughter, do you have ANY other indications at all, about ANY other Emperor at that specific time, that belonged to the Monomachus family THAT could have been her father instead? Name please! Give us only one second probable candidate as her father, or mayby a third candidate, can you produce that?

There is no point in crossing the river to fetch water.

This is logic.
One of these is the father of Vsevolod Yaroslavich wife

1 Paulos Monomachos
2 Theodosios Monomachos
3 Constantine IX Monomachos, byzantine emperor
4 Spiros Monomachos

Number 1 would be rúled out, too old. three left. (There is no point in bringing in more totally unknown to have existed candidates or any mailmen).

Number 2 is likely the grandfather according to chronolgy. This leaves us with only number 3 or 4 as the potential father.
In this case, as the mothers to them is unknown, just as the wife to number 4, and perhaps the mother to Vsevolod Yaroslavich wife, it doesn't matter which of them who actually was her father, Constantine or his brother not known by name.

The easy solution could have been to set in a third dummy brother, replacing them both (3 and 4), being son of number 2 in the list, which would give her the right belonging to the right family in a quite reasonable order.

The hard solution that you choosed, is to cut her off completly, distrusting that she belonged to this family and at the same time accusing the few sources to be incorrect,
or by imagination fabricate more unknown family members, more distant away from Constantine which at the same time, using this approach, would rule out completly that she was a princess, which again would be to reject what is known.

*I begin to understand @Ulf's reasoning, [[then on how to report any doubts we will have to indulge but ..]]
**however, I am still focused on Emperor IX:
***I would like to insert the mother, ( from ML, wiki, & wiki tree )
****@Erica glad you concorde on Irene that was a mistake, now I insist on an almost little significant detail:
#3-Maria (partner);
#4-Zoe (wife)
{{or to write inside, somewhere, a better reconstruction than the French one}}

PS. 3 clones of 2018 to destroy cutting the parents of:
Empress consort Martha-Maria, CLONE

CUT parents to NOOB George II Bagrationi, CLONED LINE (1054-1112)

Super long CLONED LINE followed until Георгий II (Злой) Багратион Кахетинский, CLONED LINE waiting (C) dont merge (but continues CLONED with his brother down to 1600 :))

(area well frequented by excellent experts and attentive guardians I would say :)))