Koddo VAN GUINEA, SM/PROG - Koddo not from Guinea but of Arab origin / from Hormuz

Koddo van Guinea, SM/PROG Koddo brought by ship La Maréschal

Gary Neville van Wyk, can you please add Patric Tariq Mellet and Jan Marthinus Blomerus to this discussion. They would be able to assist us to confirm the accuracy of this document in so far as the DNA of the ancestors are concerned.

Patric Tariq Mellet

Jan Marthinus Blomerus, b2..h1

Thanks

Johan Beaurain

@Johan, all discussion welcome. I see an autocorrect type in my opening post: the ship was "raiding" not "reading" up to the Red Sea....

So, he's saying that
Koddo and Sabba are Cornelia Arabus and Lijsbeth Arabus?
And originated in Abyssinia?

I can't find his documentation on that link, though.

cf Lijsbeth Arabus, SM/PROG

cf Cornelia Arabus, SM/PROG

"The only clear primary documentary evidence found to date for Company slave Koddo is that of her baptising 2 children (maybe twins?) on 6/9/1665: “de moeder Koddo, diens kinderen Maria, Derkje” " so she's still being called Koddo in 1665

But Mansell suggests here: http://www.e-family.co.za/ffy/g6/p6534.htm
tha Cornelia Arabuss was born in 1647 in Madagascar.

baptized before 23 August 1665 de Caep de Goede Hoop.

and possibly had already had these two children
1.Armosyn Claasz van de Caep+ b. c 1661, d. 1733; This candidate relationship is offered based on Mansell Uphams extensive research on the women of this period, and his process of elimination of other women who may qualify to be the mother. There was a very small pool of company owned slave women who could have been the mother.
2.Claas Cornellisen van de Caep b. c 1663; candidate relationship, perhaps further evidence of this relationship will surface as I add records.

I am of the opinion that we are discussing the same person under different names.
A few years ago we had my Wifes DNA analyzed and it was found that her founder mother was Lisjbeth Arabus from there the remark about the L3B3 DNA. Lisjbeth was my wife's 9th great-grandmother. (she is also my 8th great-grandmother)
Out of the Arabus story springs a discussion.
The Arabus name and possible the princesses were given to them by the Admiral to 1 to romanticise and 2 to hide his whereabouts on the trip.
You can Google it.
His story about the dhow, pirates and princesses was not true. What really happened was that he run into an English fleet and have to withdraw with much damage to his ships.
On his way to the horn of Africa, he abducted some "royal' children at Madagascar.
When reaching Cape Town he didn`t enter but wait at a nearby enclave and send a boat to Cape Town requesting permission and hear if Jan van Riebeeck had any canvas for sale. Permission was granted and he gave the two princesses and their brother to Maria van Riebeeck. The boy seemed to have died soon after.

On the next visit of inspectors, Maria has to hand the slaves back to the Company and Jan gets a reprimand.
Delia Robinson partakes in the discussion. There are two versions of the Admirals story, one in English and one in French. Luckily I am fluent in French.

I also had correspondence with a learned person from Malaysia who confirms that Malaysian Dna originated mostly from Indonesia and that Malaysian Royalty became rulers of Madagascar.
Madagascar had a strong royal house until modern times.
I hope this will help.

If we look at the birth dates of Lisjbeth Arabus and Koddo from Guinea Lisbeth definitely cant be her granddaughter.
Koddo van Guinea, SM/PROG

Very interesting Dries. I've never heard the story about my granny in that much detail.

I just got it wrong: Koddo cant be the granddaughter of Lisjbeth van Guinea. They are of the same age.
I agree according to the profile foto on MyHeritage she was a "looker"

I considered removing that - for exactly the reason of your response.

http://www.e-family.co.za/ffy/g6/p6297.htm link with thanks First fifty-year project /Delia Robertson.
Because of what part of my response?

A picture that is not her, that objectifies her as a sex object elicits the "looker' response. As a slave she is likely to have been a rape victim. The kind of culture that created that life experience for her is the same culture that does this and says that.

I know that you will have me for that one:)- I agree, I am so fed up with drawings, photos. ext of naked women been used to advertise from toilet paper to mouthwash.
But you shouldn't let that influence your objectivity in making a decision.
It is a fact that with the information that is available to us Lisjbeth Arabus cant be the Grandmother of Koddo of Guinea. The age difference is too small. They could at the most be related to each other if they have the same DNA.
Gary Neville van Wyk`s link to Mansel Upham. Wordpress. com 2020/03/; had nothing to do with either Lisjbeth or Koddo; or he should show me where to find it in that interesting link. He is using Lisjbeth`s story to try and hide or justify his opinion. Why???
The links between the two profiles should be served as there doesn't exist any sourced relationship

Glad you agree on the pic. I've replaced it.

No link has been created between the two on geni.

Remarks about Indonesian royalty in Madagascar interesting. SE Asians[Malays] reaching Madagascar about 1500 years ago by outrigger an amazing feat of navigation. Modern Malagasys are an almost equal mix of Bantu African & SE Asian DNA varying by location. The SE Asian DNA is mainly female.

That's fascinating

Koddo is of course the African name for Cornelia Arabus so is her sister SABBA / LIJSBETH Arabus van Ethiopia. They have African mit/DNA L3b3 not ARAB DNA.

They were "given" to the Van Riebeeks in 1657 by Amiral Gilles de la Roche St. Andre a French Navy Amiral of LOUIS the 14TH. In 1658 the girls were given to Dutch free sttlers.

Patricia, It doesn`t right a wrong if you just say it. That is the utmost nonsense. Please make a study of the content and if you find anything that confirms your story of African names please bring it to our attention.
I have followed your maternal line up to Lijsbeth : http://www.e-family.co.za/ffy/g6/p6297.htm

Apologies, the link I provided to a recent piece by Upham was broken.

Here it is in full:

https://mansellupham.wordpress.com/2020/03/21/the-dregs-of-the-stor...

He revised prior positions on these profiles. If he is correct, we would expect to find that their descendants have African DNA, but they are from the east coast of Africa and not the west coast. Let's discuss the evidence.

About Madagascar. It's history and makeup are complex, and it is best understood as having comprised multiple distinct societies with different histories, interactions, etc.

Upham is saying "Abyssian" girls, either Arab and/or East African origin:

"Before departing from Table Bay (April 1657), Admiral Gilles de-la-Roche-St André (1621-1668) presents Maria de la Queillerie, wife to Jan van Riebeeck, with two slave girls – Koddo and Sabba – in gratitude for Dutch assistance. Later renamed Cornelia and Lijsbeth, they are two Arab girls from Abyssinia [Ethiopia, Eritrea, Somalia and/or Yemen], aged 12 and 10 years respectively.[30] They are listed as Cornelia Arabus and Lijsbeth Arabus following their settlement at the Cape.[31] Blommaert states (incorrectly?) that the girls are bartered on Madagascar.[32] Since both the St Georges and La Maréchale had sailed along the Abyssinian coast and captured a Moorish prize and traded on Suqutra, the Arab girls would have been obtained during this time. "

on re-reading now a couple of months later, his argument is that they are of Arab origin. Maybe DNA comparisons can shed light on this argument.

mtDNA LINE: • Lijsbeth Sandersz, SM • Clara Potgieter, b2 • Isabella Potgieter, b1c3 • Maria Martha Vogel, c4d3 SM • Barbara Wilhelmina Steyn • Beatrix Steyn • Beatrix Magdalena Rademan, b1c3d6e7f9 • Jacoba Johanna van Eeden • Jacoba Johanna Aletta Martins • Elizabeth Jacoba Margaretha Martins • Jacoba Johanna Alettha Britz • Jacoba Johanna Alettha Botha

My wife`s mtDNA is L3b3. As you can see she is a direct descendant of Lijsbeth Arabus. through Lijsbeth Sandersz.
After reading the link to Mansell Upham`s Wordpress I can not, due to lack of better knowledge, disagree.
If you look at the distribution of the L3b3 DNA. You will see that Malaysia, Indonesia etc. are just as densely populated with L3b3.

As to the profile on Geni the easiest correction will be to AKA the profile.

@Dries, interesting. What do you mean "AKA the profile"?

On "Lijsbeth Arabus`s" profile in the ALSO KNOWN AS space you put "Koddo van ???."

I think Sharon will see about that

yes the problem is that we don't know where she came from. If Mansell is correct she is definitely not "van Guinea"! Seems like "Abyssinia" as a general location of where she was "acquired" but that could be many places, e.g. Eritrea, Yemen, and Mansell's gist is that the naming traditions in the family point to the origin being Hormuz.