Lijsbeth Sandersz Sanders, SM - Parentage Change

Sharon Doubell, when you have a moment, can you check the details of the changes to see whether it should be reversed?

Thank you dear!

So, the main problem is the addition of this profile> Abraham SANDERS probably van Guinee which has no sources, but was part of a gedcom import?
Suzanne Evelyn Ubick I'm disconnecting this relationship pending the provision of primary sources.

FFYP says of Gerrit Sandersz: as father
"Lijsbeth Sanders+ b. b 2 Mar 1659, d. c 1743; It is possible that these individuals may be biological father and daughter. However, no baptism has been identified for Lijsbeth, and so the likelihood is that her father was not 'white' while Gerrit Sanderdz: was described in the record as from Blechsum | Blixem | Bletsum, i.e. Blexum or Blexen, viz. Blexum, ein Dorf mit einer Kirche im Budjadinger Lande, in der Grafschaft Oldenburg. Now Blexen in Niedersachsen | Lower Saxony. It may be that Lijsbeth's father was a slave somehow connected to Sandersz:, but for now he remains the only candidate who fits the name / time / location profile2"http://www.e-family.co.za/ffy/g17/p17071.htm

We need primary sources that show Lijsbeth as documented as Sanders

cf Lijsbeth Sandersz van de Kaap, SM

Exactly (the main problem is the addition of this profile Abraham SANDERS probably van Guinee which has no sources, but was part of a gedcom import) and agreed (It may be that Lijsbeth's father was a slave somehow connected to Sandersz:, but for now he remains the only candidate who fits the name / time / location).

Thanks Sharon Doubell, hoping we can find those primary sources (but I won't hold my breath) as it would be nice to button parentage down with documentation.

I was just thinking that the Sanders name must have come from some document.

Agreed, hopefully we can find it. I have been looking, in my spare time, for any documents of surnames which appear in my line. Some documents are not catalogued as yet, so it is time consuming. Maybe with time and patience...like much in life! 😜

Further to our conversation, I found something today that could explain some of the issues with Lijsbeth Sandersz van de Kaap, SM. Mind you, only some of the issues. ;)

Apparently, some people believe her to be a direct slave with the initial name of Lijsbeth van Cabo (van die Kaap), which would mean that her parentage cannot be known. However, that seems doubtful to me as direct slaves were usually named for where they came from, like Louis van Bengale. It is more likely, given she is "from the Cape," that she is a "half-caste" as they were called. I know that the Fifty First Years Project notes that "Lijsbeth Sanders was born before 2 March 1659 (de Caep de Goede Hoop), most likely in the household of Hendrick Hendricksz Boom and Anna Joris given that her putative mother (Lijsbeth Arabus) had been re-allocated to them by the time of the 1657 muster. She was said to be 12 years old when sold in 1671." They also note that "Circa 1658 Lijsbeth Arabus and Gerrit Sandersz: may have been in a de facto relationship but this is not proven. This candidate relationship is offered with a view toward further discovery in the record of the biological parents of Lijsbeth Sanders."

Whatever the case, she called herself Lijsbeth Sanders and I have not yet found information on her parents.

A further twist in the tale is that there were two Lijsbeth van die Kaaps, and these two are often confused in Family Trees.

I found the following extract today from "Die Blanke Nagesalg van LOUIS VAN BENGALE en LlJSBETH VAN DIE KAAP written by J.L HATIINGH, specifically pages 6 to 12. [As I am sure you read and understand Afrikaans, I won't translate.]

"Uit die hofsake wil dit blyk dat daar eintlik twee Lijsbeths van die Kaap was een waarvan Anna van Guinee die moeder was. Reeds sedert 1670 verskyn die name van Anna en Evert van Guinee as vryswartes op die Kaapse monsterrol en dat hulle twee, soms drie kinders gehad het. In die 1691 monsterrol word haar twee dogters as Maria en Lijsbeth van die Kaap aangegee (V.C. 39 Monsterrollec). Maar Willem Teerling het getuig dat toe Louis hom in die pad gesteek het, is Lijsbeth van die Kaap na haar moeder by Abraham van Guinee en Abraham het 'n vrou gehad wat in die 1692 opgaafrol as Pladoor van Guinee beskryf word. Die ander Lijsbeth was dus die dogter van laasgenoemde. ...
Uit die testament blyk dit dat Louis oor drie minderjarige dogters beskik het. Die oudste was toe ongeveer sewentien jaar want sy is op 6 Oktober 1680 as Elizabeth, vernoem na haar moeder, in die Kaap gedoop. Armosyn de Grote, ook 'n vryswartin, was die getuie (N.G.K., GI 1/1 Doopregister Gemeente Kaapstad. 6.10.1680). In 1683 is sy as driejarige saam met haar moeder deur Louis uit slawerny vrygestel. Die vrystellingsdokument maak daarvan melding dat Lijsbeth twee kinders op die tydstip gehad het maar daar is geen aanduiding dat Louis nogeen voor hierdie datum gedoop het nie. ...
Hierdie drie dogters het mettertyd onderskeidelik bekend geraak as Lijsbeth Louisz, Anna Louisz en Maria Louisz om hul herkoms aan te dui. Die name het ook ander vorms aangeneem soos Lovijs, Lowies of Lowise en soms selfs as Lourens. Afgesien daarvan dat dit op 'n van gedui het, was hulle ook onder ander name bekend wat alles grootliks bemoeilik. Daar is by tye gepraat van Lijsbeth Glim of Glam terwyl hulle
moeder teen haar dood as Lijsbeth Sanders bekend gestaan het. ...
Lijsbeth (Sanders) van die Kaap het in die negentiger jare by die Drakensteinse vryburger Jan Herfst, ook bekend as Herst en soms Herbst, onderdak gevind. By hom het sy ook twee dogters gehad wat gebore is nadat sy uit die gevangenis vrygelaat is weens die diefstal van Jacob Cornelissen van Bengale se juwele. Sy was hiervoor in 1696 gegesel en moes drie jaar in kettings aan die ~gemene werk~ arbei (C.J. 6 Oonpronklike regsrolle en Notule. fol. 142, Louis van Bengale vs. Jan Hars 14.11.1715). Die oudste dogter was Clara en diejongste Gerbregt wat op I Oktober 1702 gedoop is. ...
Johann Herfst het in 1690 'n vryburger geword nadat hy 'n tydlank as opsigter by die Kompanjie se veepos in Hottentots-Holland werksaam was. In 1708 is hy weens ouderdom van die Stellenbosse militere monsterrol gesbap maar is eers in 1728 oorlede. Teen die tyd het Lijsbeth alom bekend gestaan as Lijsbeth Sanders. Lijsbeth Sanders was al oor die tagtig toe sy ongeveer 1742/3 oorlede is. Op 25 Februarie 1738 het sy 'n dokument geteken waarmee sy aan haar oudste dogter, Lijsbeth Lowise haar slavin Griet van die Kaap met haar ses kinders skenk in ruil vir die voorgaande vier jaar se spys, drank en huisvesting wat sy by haar ontvang het. Die enigste voorwaarde was dat sy haar nog vir die res van haar lewe ook moes versorg. Albei Lijsbette het die dokument met kruisies onderteken (M.O.O.C. 14/1/16 Bylae tot Boedelrekeninge, fol. 14, Lijsbeth Sanders en Lijsbeth Lowise. 25.2.1738 en by behorende stukke). ...
LlJSBETH (SANDERS) VAN DIE KAAP
Slavin van Mathijs Coemans wat haar op 3.3.1671 aan Adriaan van BrakeI vir f160 verkoop wat haar weer kort voor 1680 aan Louis van Bengale verkoop. Op 27.7.1683 word sy deur hom vrygestel om hom vir nog 'n jaar tedien. Hulle gaan op 17.3.1687 'n troubelofte aan wat weer op 28.12.1688 teruggetrek word. Teen 1700 het sy 'n vaste verhouding met Johann Herfst, van Duitse herkoms."

I'll keep digging when and where I can.

That's great Valeta - please add it to the profile, and keep us updated on what you find.