Ashot II the Iron, king of Armenia - Ashot II the Iron, king of Armenia is King David of Israel's 66th great grandson.

The connection point at  N.N., son of Johannes Moustakon Arscruni looks seriously dodgy and needs to be researched properly

Thanks, I knew I could count on you to point out any weakness in the line. :D

Geni told me my connection to king David through this link through ashot II was no longer valid. They notified me in dec 2019 that I was descended from king David through this very connection only to turn around and notify me in late February 2020 that this connection was no longer valid and didn't count. Pretty damn frustrating to say the least

Here we go again...

Joni Danielle Sneed, BSN, RN, yep.

https://www.geni.com/discussions/209089?msgI am related to Ashot II the Iron, king of Armenia https://geni.com/xtd5r

Hello cousins, it is very nice hearing from you.

Private I share your disappointment but do not despair, because in my heart Ashot II is really our g-grandfather and link to King David. We are 10th cousins twice removed, although it is through my unproven line which I plan to work on as soon as possible (must visit a library for that).

Donald Fredric Comstock we are 11th cousins once removed, and all of us here (including Jason) have similar kinships showing for Ashot II, according to the Geni calculator.

Two things:
1) I used to have Ashot as a great grandfather and I don't anymore. Now he's my 20th cousin 25 times removed (blood) and 24th great uncle's 7th great uncle (in-law). That's the way of the Tree, tain't it so? LOL Same as Queen Elizabeth used to be a direct cousin (12th I think) and now she's not.

2) How could both Ashot and his brother. Abas, be King? Did Ashot die without sons?

Dianne, it is common knowledge that Ashot II died without male heir. It's in all the history books, and that's how his brother proceeded to the throne. His daughter, Ripsime, an Armenian, married Nicholas of Bulgaria (also an Armenian), and that's how Samuel of Bulgaria came to be. Bulgaria was ruled by Armenian nobility at the time. So I guess you could say it had been annexed by Armenia, so to speak.

Just a correction: we do not know the parents of Rhipseme. No authority of his time notes daughters of Ashot, and we do have a near contemporary study from Stephen de Targon.

It's all very nice to see that we all want to find our lineage to King David BUT all that is impossible because all Family records where destroyed when Jerusalem was destroyed in 70C.E. so any lineage can't be traced back to King David unless the Romans kept them.

See this discussion:

https://www.geni.com/discussions/200747?msg=1322923

I've found good sources for Vasak's mother's relation to Manuel Arsacid. Cyril Toumanoff, in his article 'The Orontids of Armenia", writes that Smbat V married in "643 a princess of the Arsacid dynasty, daughter of the Magister Manuel." The article gives some helpful sources too, so that part of the tree seems accurate. (I'll add this to their Geni profiles).
Now we just need to source the relationship between Manuel and Johannes Moustakon.

Noah
8/22/2019 at 6:44 PM
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A pdf of Toumanoff's article is available here: https://ia800200.us.archive.org/21/items/TheOrontidsOfArmenia/Touma...
See page 340 for the information on Smbat V.

Noah
8/22/2019 at 7:15 PM
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There's a reliable source of biographical material for Manuel Arshakuni here: https://www.degruyter.com/view/PMBZ/PMBZ15865

It doesn't name his parents and only says " M. scheint zu der Familie der Arsakiden gehört zu haben, wenn man einer früheren Mitteilung des Sebeos trauen darf, daß Konstans II. den Smbat Bagratuni mit einer Frau aus dieser Familie verheiratet habe (Sebeos, cap. 32, p. 108 [Gugerotti cap. 42, p. 111])." ["Manuel seems to have belonged to the Arsacid family, if one can trust an earlier statement by Sebeos that Constans II had married Smbat Bagrutni to a woman from this family"].

Manuel Arshakuni

Easy come, easy go in my case, after stewing about it for a minute. I didn't know I was related to any of these people before I came here. By the time I leave, who knows where things will go. I'm just along for the ride. My brain is happy here.

Most of us didn't come here looking for King David, I assure you. He was a womanizer, among other things. He just happened to be one of a large group of royals in his day. I'm still directly descended from many, many royals and nobles all across Europe. So they say.

But I take it Queen Elizabeth II has the singular distinction of being directly descended from David. Even Elizabeth I (my 7th x 1) is no blood relation to him. But II has at least one major issue with her pedigree:

Shoshana

Why hasn't that been corrected by now?

"7th x 1[1]" (oops).

I take it research needs to be done on Shoshanah.

——

This profile looks OK, I added source info:

N.N. Arshakuni

----

https://www.degruyter.com/view/PMBZ/PMBZ18043

: Surname: Bagratuni.

T: Protospatharios and candidate, later Drungarios and Kuropalates.

V: S. was a high Armenian nobleman from the Bagratuni family and the eldest son of Varaz Tiroc '( # 8567 ), with whom he had been exiled to Africa by Emperor Herakleios (610-641). Approx. In 645/46 he appears to have been recalled by Emperor Constantine II and appointed protospatharios and candidate. After the death of Varaz Tiroc ', Constantine II appointed him governor of Armenia and awarded him the Kuropalate title that his father had already held. He is also said to have been appointed Drungarios. S. married a woman of the Arsakid family (approx. 646). His father-in-law was '''Magistros Manuel''' ( # 4698)

Cool no doubt in my mind.

Thanks for the information Debra. I just wish Geni would work out this misunderstanding on their end. I believe what you say too I just don't have the information to back it up. One question though, would you happen to know anything about Sephardic Jewish ancestry from Spain? I am trying to find out information I have on a grandmother of mine that I believe to be descended from King David but through David's exilarch descendants that went to Spain. I figured it couldn't hurt to ask at least. Thanks anyways though.

Daniel

Daniel, that is a really interesting subject for research which I have yet to explore more fully. If your grandmother is indeed descended from King David (and I wouldn't doubt it), she likely descended somehow from noble ancestry. Perhaps this might help (or at least get you started in the right direction)?

https://www.ancestry.com/search/collections/17362/

This is a search page for "Noble families among the Sephardic Jews" which is accessible online (although there might be a fee for the service, it's a pretty good service nevertheless).

This book also looks very interesting to me, although I'm not sure where one might find a rare copy of it I'm sure it exists somewhere.

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Noble_Families_Among_the_Sepha...

A review of the book...

https://academic.oup.com/ahr/article-abstract/43/3/608/54526?redire...

Also (some would say that most Spanish names could be considered Sephardic):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_Jewish_nobility#Spanish

This also looks very promising.

https://www.sephardicgen.com/books.htm

Thank you for the information Debra. My 18th Great Grandfather's name was Sir Walter Blount. He was a knight and part of English nobility and apparently a friend of John of Gaunt, Duke of Lancaster (Also my grandfather) and John of Gaunt married Sir Walter Blount off to a Spanish noblewoman named Sancha De Ayala my 18th great grandmother. Anyways, my understanding is that Sancha Ayala had Jewish ancestry and supposedly was descended not only from Spanish conversos but from the line of David through the exilarchs. Everything seems to point to that I am just trying to find the link, something solid and verified. Anyways that is what I am trying to find is another verified link to King David. A lot of people are descended from Sancha Ayala, you might be too. Thank you again for the information.

Daniel Wayne Peacock
Sancha de Ayala is my 18th ggm as well. Hello cousin.

King David of Israel is Sancha Blount, Lady de Ayala's first cousin's husband's 74th great grandfather.

Ripsimia is Sancha Blount, Lady de Ayala's sister's partner's 13th great grandmother.

Ashot II the Iron, king of Armenia is Sancha Blount, Lady de Ayala's 20th cousin four times removed.

Sancha's first cousin, Juana de Mendoza, La Ricahembra was the daughter of her mother's sister. This lady was married to a Spanish nobleman who was certainly Jewish, and he was King David's 74th g-grandson.

Alonso Enríquez de Castilla, 1er. Almirante Mayor de Castilla, Señor de Medina de Rio Seco

That's about as much as I can glean from the Geni relationship calculator. By the way, I'm fairly confident that she's also my 19th g-grandmother (through my most reliable paternal lineage).

From Wikipedia, regarding the marriage of Juana de Mendoza and Alonso Enriquez de Castilla:

"In 1387, Alonso Enriquez, posing as a servant, asked Juana de Mendoza (widowed by the Battle of Aljubarrota, August 1385), if she would marry his Lord (himself). The disguised Alonso received the answer that Alonso Enríquez was the son of a "marrana" (family of converted Jews), at which the supposed servant slapped her. Revealing his trickery, it is said that was requested the presence of a priest to marry them "for let it not be said that any man had raised his hand to her who was not her husband." It is also said that on one occasion, having arrived late at night, he had to sleep with his company in the field, receiving the explanation the following day from the haughty Mendoza that "No self respecting Castilian woman would open the doors of her castle to anyone at night.""

They had 13 children together.

Alonso Enriquez of Castille was John of Gaunt's 3rd cousin twice removed; and was also the 1st cousin of Constance of Castille (daughter of Pedro I, King of Castille and Leon and wife of John of Gaunt, with whom she had two children).

There’s a lot of information in the Geni profile for Sancha Blount, Lady de Ayala

“The marriage of doña Sancha de Ayalá to Sir Walter Blount, Kt., in 1373 (probably at Sodington in Worcestershire) is an important event, at least for genealogists. The union brought some exotic bloodlines into the English aristocracy, and later into many families on both sides of the Atlantic. Any marriage more than six hundred years ago is likely to have millions of descendants today, so our descent fromdoña Sancha is nothing special; still, it's interesting. ...”

Ggp

Ggp