Samuel, Tsar of Bulgaria - Samuel, Tsar of Bulgaria

Stephan von Taron's book (translated into German) is here: https://archive.org/details/desstephanosvont00step/page/124/mode/2up

The relevant section is page 124, but there is no mention of children.

https://archive.org/details/TheEarlyMedievalBalkans/page/n215/mode/1up

Origins of the Cometopoli are not known.

It’s good reading. Samuel was not a Bogomil; his father (Nicolas) has gradually built up power & territory in Western Bulgaria; it does not seem a marriage alliance with the rulers of Eastern Bulgaria was needed.

This is about Maria of Kachen’s family:

http://www.gandzasar.com/principality-of-khachen.htm

https://groups.google.com/forum/m/#!searchin/soc.genealogy.medieval...

+Ripsimija >>

[INTERLEAVED COMMENT & QUESTIONS - At this generation the confusion between
sources begins to mount. Assuming that Nikola Kumet, husband of Ripsimija,
is the same individual as Nicolaos Comes, husband of Ripsimia shown by Rafal
two generations further on, there is disagreement as to his ancestry. Rafal
does NOT show Nikola/Nicolaos as being son of Boris I Michael (as shown by Ed
based on RFC). (Britannica notes that Boris had 4 sons, but only identifies
two of them, Vladimir the 1st son, and Simeon the third son). In fact, Rafal
does not show Nikola/Nicolaos as being a descendant of Boris I Michael at all,
but rather as being married to Boris I Michael's presumed granddaughter,
Ripsimia. Rafal shows Ripsimia as being the daughter of Symeon (Simeon I
'the Great') tsar of Bulgars, born ca 865, died 27 May 927, the third son of
Boris I Michael. Does anybody have more detail on the sons of Boris I
Michael that could establish definitively whether Nikola/Nicolaos is one of
those sons?

Alternatively, does anyone have more definitive source material on Ripsimia
which might also be helpful? A post from Todd Farmerie on 29 Apr 1999
stated:

"While it has been speculated that Hripsime, wife of Nicholas, was Armenian
(which explains the names Samuel and David given her sons) I know of no
source that enables her parentage to be determined."

This clearly conflicts with Rafal's information. Does anybody have access to
any material that could resolve these differences?]

However, the same posts
confusingly refer to Ivan Vladislav as grandson of "Car" (tsar) Samuil, who
traditionally is shown as Aaron's brother. The post from Todd Farmerie on 29
Apr 1999 cited above continued;

"Likewise, the fraternity of Samuel, David, Moses and Aaron based on late
tradition, and recent work has suggested that, while Samuel and David are
sons on Nicholas, Moses and Aaron might be representatives of the older
dinasty of Bulgarian rulers."

Such a split would have a bearing on the descent we are considering. Does
anybody have access to any research that might clarify all this?]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simeon_I_of_Bulgaria

Simeon also had several daughters, including one who was arranged to marry Constantine VII in 913.[61] The marriage was annulled by Constantine's mother Zoe once she had returned to the court.[106]

Christian Settipani answered!

He writes: "Unfortunately, I don't know who is the author of the wikipedia notice, but he obviously didn't understand what I wrote at all.

I said: "Rhipsimé, whose name refers as an Armenian, "but not necessarily a noble one") (p. 282, n. 3).
That is all. I say nothing more on this subject and there is nothing more to say!"

His work has been incorrectly cited and it does not make any claims to the parentage of Rhipsime. She has an Armenian name and that is as far as the matter goes.

Since his book was the only real citation for this connection (on French Wikipedia), which turns out to be a mistake, and because every other piece of scholarship which we have found from both the Bulgarian and Armenian perspectives does not mention the connection between Rhipsime and Ashot II of Armenia, I am now fully convinced that we can disconnect Rhipsime and Ashot for good.

The English Wikipedia article for Samuel of Bulgaria cites Samuel l'Arménien, roi des Bulgares by Samuel Adontz as the source for this connection, but that is incorrect as well. Adontz writes that her name is a popular Armenian name but says nothing more (pg. 386 in book, pg. 42 on archive.org). https://archive.org/details/Adontz2018SamuelRoiDesBulgares/page/n41...

I appreciate that you guys have begun researching this topic. However, there are multiple sources which have not been examined yet. Most of us have day jobs, but are pouring a lot of our extra energy into trying to access this information. I'm glad that Christian Settipani emailed you back. But I still don't feel that this one incident is sufficient evidence to delete the connection once again, as I see you have already done. I will continue reading through some of the original sources. I found a hard copy of the Universal History that is only $34. I will need at least a week before I can purchase/receive/read the book. I will Zvonimir Matovski, Zvonko Jukka Ilari Heikinheimo Sam Clark Dibrell Private User

Erica Howton I would also like to respond to two comments you made.

1) Political Motivation Link - Of course there are political motivations involved in the approval or disproval of geneologies. Hence the current discussion. However, let's not forget the Macedonian, Armenian and Pontic genocides that occured in the early 20th century. There may be deliberate misinformation in order to discredit these hereditary lines as well.

2) I already attempted to address the issue concerning the European Royalty connection to King David, but I guess I will try again since my previous comment was removed. I will keep it as short and sweet as possible.

Mariamne I and King Herod had two sons - Alexander III and Aristobulus. Alexander married Glaphyra - a Cappadocian princess and Aristobulus had a son named Aristobulus the Younger who married Iotapa of Commagene. Therefore, the descendants of the Hasmoneans married into the lines of the Macedonian Ptolemaic dynasty, the Commagene and Cappadocian royal families, the Syrian Severan dynasty of Rome and the Emesan dynasty. Their descendents became rulers of the Byzantine empire - and they were intermarried with the French House of Anjou during the Crusades, and the establishment of the medieval Kingdom of Jerusalem. This is how the French, British and Scottish families are connected to the Ancient Hebrews.

I found this discussion after Eudokia Komnene - the Byzantine princess was removed from her parents. And I was interested to find that there were more connections. Now, both of these lines are disconnected and I still haven't received sufficient evidence to support removal for either.

Elisha Kayne Stephen von Taron / Stepʻanos Tarōnecʻi's book in a German translation is here: https://archive.org/details/desstephanosvont00step/page/124/mode/2up If you speak a bit of German it will save you 35 dollars.

Samuel Adontz devotes multiple pages of his book, Samuel l'Arménien, roi des Bulgares, to the work of Stephen von Taron, although he refers to him by the name Asolik, and I cannot find anything in there to support this connection either. (pg 36 on archive.org) https://archive.org/details/Adontz2018SamuelRoiDesBulgares/page/n35...

Thank you very much Tamás Flinn Caldwell-Gilbert I will read them as soon as I can. Probably tonight.

Elisha Kayne Hunter College has a copy of The Universal History of Step'anos Tarōnec'i in its library so I will hop over there today after class to take a look at it and report back with my findings.

Tamás Flinn Caldwell-Gilbert I really do think it's important for us to read the original sources and texts, rather than simply rely on the internet. I appreciate your diligence and the time you are spending on this. Thank you.

I also attempted to contact Mr. Settipani last night through a completely different scholarly communication path (at the Collège de France website), but unfortunately ran into a minor glitch with the MS Outlook program and was told to "try again tomorrow". (When they say they're sending the code to your phone, it doesn't help much to look for it in your email inbox while repeatedly hitting the "send verification" button.)

Not that I don't trust Geni curators and expect to get the same answer -- I just think it is sound policy to obtain corroborative evidence whenever possible, especially for cases involving many interested parties such as this one.

I admire Tamas for directly addressing the relevant author with the question, as it was exactly what I had planned to do myself. Maybe tomorrow evening, with better luck. :D

Can we get Wikipedia fixed?

Also, maybe Tamas would be willing to upload his Settipani email to the relevant profiles. He can obscure his own email address, perhaps.

This book is new (2018). Samuel is discussed here:

A History of the First Bulgarian Empire. Steven Runciman (2018). Page 195.

https://books.google.com/books?id=e8VqDwAAQBAJ&lpg=PP1&pg=P...

The primary sources for his parents are the monumental inscription from 1015/1016 (uploaded to profiles) & another book already mentioned.

Elisha Kayne I think your other questions would need separate discussions. A sourcing effort is profile-focused.

Erica Howton I wasn't bringing up any questions, simply responding to comments you had made previously on this thread. I feel that the information is relevant, since the relationship between Ripsimia and Ashot is related to the lineage of Eudokia and John II Byzantine Emperor. Ripsimia is their direct ancestor, and both relationship connections have been severed.

Erica Howton Thank you for the extra source information.

As a quibble: I would phrase it as “we cannot find evidence to support parent connections.”

Of course if evidence is found, connections can be made.

Wikipedia can't be fixed, it is too fluid and free-form to control that way, but I have come to appreciate it very much for its own unique character. In many important ways, it is much like this website.

And I agree with you about including Christian Settipani's email as a source of authority on the relevant profiles.

What we have here is a difference in perspective about how evidence should be utilized. You believe that evidence of their relationship should be provided in order keep the connection. I think that evidence should be provided to disprove their connection before their relationship can be denied. Political issues that have developed during the 20th century has likely caused many genological records of the Macedonians, Armenians and Pontic communities to be lost. Certain books may have become unavailable and once well understood historical events might be denied, especially in modern texts. Therefore, we need to look at sources that were written prior to 1900 if we want a more accurate assessment of events. If you guys can provide information that proves that the parents of Eudokia Komnene and Ripsimia are someone else - then the lineages can be altered. Otherwise, these established personages should be left in tact for the preservation of history.

I agree with Erica's last post as well, about the proper way to handle the problem within the profiles themselves and a fair policy for potential future corrections.

https://www.geni.com/discussions/208255?msg=1367788

Elisha Kayne You have state the problem very well, and I agree with you.

You really need to do a separate discussion for Eudokia.

For Rhipsime, we have firm near contemporary evidence establishing that we don’t know her parents. We have current day scholars examining history is ways us amateurs can only appreciate, putting the genealogy into context. They don’t have origins for her other than “Armenian.”

And we have one of the most respected medievalists today clearly stating “we don’t know her parents.”

So this isn’t even a speculative connection, a “could be.” It’s a firm NO.

I should also say this is my ancestry also (according to Geni). And I do not want false claims in my history.

Wow, go Tamás Flinn Caldwell-Gilbert and Erica Howton! Very impressive.

So we've found no proof whatsoever for her parentage. She has a common Armenian name and that's it.

To my mind, linking her to any set of parents at this time would seem to shut down the possibility of further research. I'd suggest that Jason cuts the relationship and keeps a reference to this Discussion on her profile or Curator Note, so further research can call us back here if primary proof is found by historians.