Samuel, Tsar of Bulgaria - Samuel, Tsar of Bulgaria

Thank goodness!

Thank you Jason Scott Wills it is much appreciated.

This is not about King David, (there might be few or more generations missing, we probably never know). This is about Ripsimia and Ashot II.

Thank you for correcting the line.

We at Geni have been asked to review this discussion and the connections in question.

I'll start by saying this: it is a disservice to genealogy and Geni in particular, to suggest that users (including curators) should not question lines that are undocumented or poorly documented. To the extent possible, we expect the shared historical lines of the World Family Tree to be constructed in accordance with the Genealogical Proof Standard ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genealogical_Proof_Standard ) Obviously when we get to these ancient lines we can't expect to find indisputable proof of every connection, but that is no reason to discard all reason.

At this point Private User has provided a list of sources that I believe would have to be refuted before breaking this connection again. It appears Jason has no interest in continuing to push for separating the line, so this matter is likely closed unless someone else wants to take it up. Bear in mind however that Geni fully supports the notion that historical lines may be severed if there's insufficient evidence for them.

Mike, your posting is much appreciated.

It’s disheartening to put heart, soul, passion, intelligence, research and kindness into the collaborative geni tree only to be “shouted down” by cries of “disconnected ancestors.”

There is no crying in genealogy, only examining the evidence.

Thank you Mike Stangel for joining this thread, I appreciate that the sourcing is being considered seriously. I look forward to helping where I can and engaging in constructive conversation.

Thank you Mike Stangel I appreciate your acknowledgement of the issue. I understand that the curators of this site have a tough job. While Eudokia's parents haven't yet been reinstated - I appreciate Jason's willingess to hear us out and to restore Ripsimia. I apologize if I got a little heated in my posts - I felt like I was being ridiculed. However, I've cooled down, and I am happy we came to an understanding.

We are all needed to build the reputable world tree. Historical individuals are fascinating and it is not self-evident that all of them have quality source material existing and in some cases sources found, will probably never reach a consensus. I have had my own learning curve to accept that.

Curators here understandably have millions of profiles to work and managed with, in the same time helping people with their questions. I have understood that they do that voluntarily, we should always remember to give thanks to them also.
I have learned so much and found great articles and sources shared here in Geni by you Erica Howton and Anne Brannen. Thank you so much! And thanks to you all who do work here to improve Geni.

This topic is of interest to me, as well as old books. I contacted now a few universities in Bulgaria to find out more about some of these individuals, sources and their origins.

Lets continue research - Kind regards, Saga

Private User, RE your post:
sources showing that Hripsime is Ashot II's daughter are here:

Cyril Tumanoff, Manuel de Généalogie et de Chronologie pour l'Histoire de la Caucasie Chrétienne (Arménie-Géorgie-Albanie)
Armenian Soviet Encyclopedia
René Grousset, Histoire de l'Arménie
Continuité des élites à Byzance durant les siècles obscurs
Suny, Ronald Grigor (1994), The Making of the Georgian Nation: 2nd edition, p. 27. Indiana University Press, ISBN 0-253-20915-3
Rapp, Stephen H. (2003), Studies In Medieval Georgian Historiography: Early Texts And Eurasian Contexts, p. 383. Peeters Bvba ISBN 90-429-1318-5.

Do you have access to them? (I'm battling to find anything but a frontspiece - will keep trying)
Can we quote the validating piece from each of them and the primary source which it references? As it stands at the moment, the profile doesn't have enough data on it to validate it.

I can find this in Medlands:

ASHOT Bagratuni, son of SMBAT Bagratuni “Khostovanogh/the Confessor” & his wife Hripsime --- (820-890, bur Bagran).
m KOTRAMIDE, daughter of --- ([825]-). The primary source which confirms her marriage has not yet been identified.
King Ashot I & his wife had six children:
1. SMBAT Bagratuni ([850]-murdered Erndjak 912). Kirakos Ganjaketsi's History of Armenia records that Ashot was succeeded by "his son Smbat" who ruled for 24 years but "underwent martyrdom in Christ at Dwin, hanged from a tree by Yusup, Apuset's son"[49]. He succeeded his father in 890 as SMBAT I "the Martyr" King of Armenia. The succession was disputed by his uncle Abas, but Smbat was crowned in 892 at Širakawan [Erazgavork] by the Caliph's representative, the ostikan of Azerbaijan. He also confirmed the treaty of friendship with Emperor Leon VI[50]. King Smbat's policy of independence provoked the ostikan Afshin to declare war on Armenia from neighbouring Azerbaijan, during which the Armenian katolikos was captured, although the latter was ransomed when King Smbat's military victory forced the Azeris to sue for peace[51]. The war was temporarily halted in 902 when the Caliph agreed Armenia's separation from Azerbaijan, the Armenian tribute being paid direct to Baghdad, although the latter decision was disputed by Azerbaijan[52]. Yusuf ostikan of Azerbaijan organised a general rebellion against King Smbat, who sought refuge in the fortress of Kapoyt Berd "Blue Fortress" in Aršarunik but later surrendered and was tortured to death, his headless corpse being exposed on a cross in Duin[53]. The Histoire of Jean VI Catholicos records in some detail the torture inflicted on King Smbat and his death, noting that he had reigned for 22 years[54]. The De Administrando Imperio of Konstantinos Porphyrogenetos records that "Symbatii…principum principis" was beheaded "ab Aposata Persidis"[55]. The Tables chronologiques of Samuel of Ani record that "Sembat-Tiézéracal" was killed by "Iousouf fils d´Abousidj, ostican" and that, after his death, "notre pays resta 7 ans sans maître"[56]. m ---, daughter of --- King of Abkhazia [Colchis/Kolkhis] & his wife --- (-after [895]). The name of Smbat's wife is not known. The Histoire of Jean VI Catholicos refers to "la reine des arméniens, femme de Sempad et fille du roi de Colchide" when recording that she took refuge in "la forteresse de Kars" during an attack by the Arabs but that she was captured and taken "à Tovin"[57]. The same source records her subsequent release[58]. It is not possible to identify her father from this passage. See the document GEORGIA for the various possible candidates. Garsoïan dates these events to [895][59]. King Smbat I & his wife had five children:

a) SMBAT . The Histoire of Jean VI Catholicos records that "le sbarabied Apas frère du roi Aschod" rebelled against "Sempad", son of the latter, but that peace was restored after King Smbat sent as hostages "son fils qui portait son nom et Aschod fils de son frère Schahpour" to Abas[60].

b) ASHOT Bagratuni (-[928]). The De Administrando Imperio of Konstantinos Porphyrogenetos names "Asotium…et Apasacium" as the two sons of "Symbatii…principum principis"[61]. The Histoire of Jean VI Catholicos records that "le chef des eunuques…[de] Afschin" took "Aschod le fils du roi" and "la femme de Mouschegh, frère d´Aschod", who had been captured "dans la forteresse de Kars", and returned them to King Smbat[62]. Kirakos Ganjaketsi's History of Armenia records that "his son Ashot" succeeded after the death of "Smbat Bagratuni" and ruled "at the order of Emperor Romanus for eight years"[63]. Defeated by Yusuf ostikan of Azerbaijan, he was crowned in 914 as ASHOT II King of Armenia by Adarnase II King of Iberia. The Histoire of Jean VI Catholicos records that "Aschod fils de Sempad" was made king "par le roi des Ibériens"[64]. After visiting Constantinople, he returned to Armenia with Byzantine forces to fight ostikan Yusuf and his cousin Ashot, whom Yusuf had installed as anti-king of Armenia[65]. After Yusuf's fall and recall to Baghdad in 919, King Ashot was granted the title Shahanshah [King of Kings]. m ([917]) MARIE of Kachen, daughter of SAHAK Sevata & his wife ---. The Histoire of Jean VI Catholicos records that "le roi Aschod, fils de roi" married "la fille du grand ischkhan Isaac [Sahak] surnommé Sévata", dated to [917] from the context[66].
http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/ARMENIA.htm#GagikIdied1017B

I know Medlands isn't the be all and end all, but it does provide primary source texts to search in, so it's a useful start.

I find this by following some of those hints that you give: http://www.promacedonia.org/vz1b/vz1b_6_1.html

It cites a "993 letter found in the village of Herman on the east shore of Prespa Lake, which Samuel had made to commemorate his father" as validation of the name of Nicholas and that of his wife, Ripsimia, but doesn't validate parents, indeed - perhaps the opposite:

cf "There is no doubt that this same arrangement of the Slav municipality was preserved by the Bulgarian masters in the 9th century after the Macedonian Slavs joined the Bulgarian state. However, for a better and more solid connection with the center of the state, these Slavic municipalities, even under Prince Boris, were grouped in larger administrative units, preserving the old tribal affinity of the individual municipalities, on the one hand, and, on the other, the old terms: (1) for such a separate area as that mentioned by the Archbishop of Hinkmar of Decem comitatus at Boris [7] , and 2) for the manager of such an area. Such were ( ) Taridin at Boris for the District of Brest [8] and ( ) Drister for the Strumitsa region at Simeon. [9] Thus, by their nature, these comets or committees were included in the number of Bulgarian boyars, [10] who later appeared under the name - almost semi-independent masters with their strongholds and troops [11].; as far as their origin is concerned, some of them, at least for the first time, have emerged from the midst of the local population and as substitutes for the former tribal princes, will have been elected persons who established themselves by the central authority; and others, judging by their names - Krakra, Elemag, etc., and then at Simeon, were appointed directly by the prince and king; in each case they were the highest representatives of the local population, defended his interests before the authorities, and therefore enjoyed great authority and influence throughout the area - they were - "powerful", and sometimes reached such a power that they decided to oppose the central government, as the father of our comitopulus was in this case. What role he played in the uprising itself cannot be established, for no credible notice or document speaks of him; his personality never stands out as an actor both in the uprising and beyond. It is only recently that, on the basis of two authentic notices, it was conclusively established that his name was Nicholas and that of his wife, Ripsimia, [12] by this is the end of a delusion that, based on some forged documents in the late 15th or early 16th century, has been kept since the time of Jesuit priest Daniel Farlatti (+ 1773) for almost two centuries in ours and inforeign historical literature. [13] Therefore, in the absence of such information, it seems necessary to assume that he died at the beginning of the uprising and that his sons continued on his behalf. It also remains unknown which area governed the House of Nicholas, and hence the exact center of the uprising cannot be determined; but bearing in mind that the last Bulgarian Patriarch Damian Drustarski, after the conquest of the eastern half of the kingdom in 972, fled to Sredets, as is evident from the second diploma of Vasi-Leigh II, [14] it can be assumed with some certainty that the patriarch sought shelter and protection for those personalities in the western free half, in the hands in which power was at that time, which were the comitopulates, hence the possessions. of their father formed the Sofia District together with present-day Northern Macedonia, and hence the center of the uprising was originally the town of Sredets, or Byzantium, which was important in its geographical and strategic location."

Everything here seems to indicate that there aren't any sources to place her parents.

Possibly something in the titles you've posted has the sources we need? Can you post the data that you're referencing in them?

It seems that Private User has simply copied the sources cited in the Wikipedia article for the Bagratuni Family Tree (a family tree which does not mention Ripsimia). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bagratuni_family_tree#Sources

So far I have been able to get my hands on the Soviet Armenian Encyclopedia, whose articles for Ashot II and Samuel of Bulgaria can be found here respectively: https://hy.wikisource.org/wiki/%D4%B7%D5%BB:%D5%80%D5%A1%D5%B5%D5%A... and https://hy.wikisource.org/wiki/%D4%B7%D5%BB:%D5%80%D5%A1%D5%B5%D5%A... I do not speak Armenian, but Google Translate is good enough to make it clear that there is no mention of Ripsimia in either article.

Suny, Ronald Grigor (1994), The Making of the Georgian Nation: 2nd edition, p. 27 – Page 27 deals with 6th and 7th century Georgia. Samuel of Bulgaria and Ripsime do not even appear in the entire book and mentions of Ashot II make no reference to children.

For Rapp, Stephen H. (2003), Studies In Medieval Georgian Historiography: Early Texts And Eurasian Contexts, p. 383. Peeters Bvba ISBN 90-429-1318-5 and René Grousset, Histoire de l'Arménie, I have ordered copies of the books through my library systems and they should get here by next week.

This leaves Cyril Tumanoff, Manuel de Généalogie et de Chronologie pour l'Histoire de la Caucasie Chrétienne (Arménie-Géorgie-Albanie)
Settipani, Christian, Continuité des élites à Byzance durant les siècles obscurs

Unfortunately both these book are very obscure in the U.S. and I am having trouble getting my hands on them. I have tried ordering them through InterLibrary Loan, but if a library does not want to mail them to me then I might have to take a field trip to Princeton University. :-)

Lastly Medlands: It seems that Medlands used to have Ripsimia as the daughter of Ashot II 13 years ago, but it since has been removed, which I think is very significant. https://soc.genealogy.medieval.narkive.com/xrwf98Jq/ripsimia-of-bul...

Medlands mentions that "RIPSIME, daughter of --- (-before [992/93]). Samuil, later Tsar of Bulgaria, names "my father, my mother, my brother…Nicolas…--- and David" in a monument erected in [992/93][111]. Adontz quotes the monument (in Bulgarian) in full, including Samuil’s mother’s name. However, on the subsequent page he states that "du nom de la mère il ne reste que la dernière lettre" and that "Michel de Devol permet de le rétablir en témoignant que le père de Samuel s’appelait Nicolas et la mère Ριψίμη"[112]. Unfortunately, he gives no citation for this statement but on an earlier page quotes a passage inserted in another text written by "Michel évêque de Devol", and cites a German secondary source although it is not at all clear from what he writes that this is where the passage naming Samuil’s mother can be found[113]. No other information is known about Ripsimé. However, one somewhat outlandish scenario appears to reconcile the conflicts between the different primary sources, discussed below under Ripsimé’s supposed son Aaron, which relate to the parentage of her supposed four sons: that Ripsimé was the anonymous Armenian wife of Ivan, brother of Tsar Peter I, who married Nikolaos as her second husband, and that Aaron and Moisei were her sons by her first marriage, while Samuil and David were born to her second husband. This possibility seems too remote to justify recasting the presentation of the families in the present document." http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/BULGARIA.htm

They are clear that nothing is known about her.

Lastly, Private User. Just copying a list of citation from a random wikipedia page without knowing anything about their contents and claiming that they support a very specific correction is not OK. If you want to cite sources then please only do so if you know exactly what they say, otherwise it is a waste of time for those of us who have to track them down.

Gee Tamás Flinn Caldwell-Gilbert, that's useful. Thank you. So just Wikipedia references :-/

RE"For Rapp, Stephen H. (2003), Studies In Medieval Georgian Historiography: Early Texts And Eurasian Contexts, p. 383. Peeters Bvba ISBN 90-429-1318-5 and René Grousset, Histoire de l'Arménie, I have ordered copies of the books through my library systems and they should get here by next week." We should wait until you get this before we proceed.

RE "Settipani, Christian, Continuité des élites à Byzance durant les siècles obscurs" - Justin Swanstrom did used to have access to some of his stuff. Perhaps we could persuade him to look and see if he has anything on this.

https://books.google.com/books/about/Continuité_des_élites_à_Byzanc...

(Search inside)

No results for Ripsimia - did you find anything?

Nope.

I did learn it was a common name with a sainted “ancestress.”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hripsime

https://books.google.com/books?id=9fkPAQAAIAAJ&q=Ripsime&dq...

Hripsime being the mother of Ashtot I may be the reason for the connection?

Maybe the citations here will be easier to chase.

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Armenia-8

The parents listed for this individual are speculative and may not be based on sound genealogical research. Sources to prove or disprove this ancestry are needed.

Research suggests that this person may never have existed.

___

Wikipedia. Nicholas Komes. According to the Armenian chronicler Stephen of Taron, the family originated in the Armenian region of Derdjan. Nicholas was married to Ripsime or Hripsime, a daughter of King Ashot II of Armenia.

Fabpedigree. Ripsimja of the Bulgars, possibly daughter of Ashot II of Armenia.

Rootsweb. Ripsimija Bagratuni, born 911 in Armenia. Died 969 in Macedonia.

——

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicholas_(komes)_

According to the Armenian chronicler Stephen of Taron, the family originated in the Armenian region of Derdjan.[1][2] He was married to Ripsime or Hripsime, possibly a daughter of King Ashot II of Armenia.[3][4][5] The couple had four sons, David, Moses, Aron, and Samuel, who are collectively known as the Cometopuli (from Greek Kometopouloi, "sons of the komes"; Armenian կոմսաձագ Komsajagk).[1][2]

Maybe the citations here will be easier to chase.

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Armenia-8

The parents listed for this individual are speculative and may not be based on sound genealogical research. Sources to prove or disprove this ancestry are needed.

Research suggests that this person may never have existed.

___

Wikipedia. Nicholas Komes. According to the Armenian chronicler Stephen of Taron, the family originated in the Armenian region of Derdjan. Nicholas was married to Ripsime or Hripsime, a daughter of King Ashot II of Armenia.

Fabpedigree. Ripsimja of the Bulgars, possibly daughter of Ashot II of Armenia.

Rootsweb. Ripsimija Bagratuni, born 911 in Armenia. Died 969 in Macedonia.

——

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicholas_(komes)_

According to the Armenian chronicler Stephen of Taron, the family originated in the Armenian region of Derdjan.[1][2] He was married to Ripsime or Hripsime, possibly a daughter of King Ashot II of Armenia.[3][4][5] The couple had four sons, David, Moses, Aron, and Samuel, who are collectively known as the Cometopuli (from Greek Kometopouloi, "sons of the komes"; Armenian կոմսաձագ Komsajagk).[1][2]

1. PmbZ, Nikolaos (#26038.
2. ^ Jump up to: 
a b ODB, "Kometopouloi" (A. Kazhdan), pp. 1140–1141.
3. ^ Adontz, Nicholas (1938). "Samuel l'Armenien, roi des Bulgares". MAR Bclsmp (in French) (39): 37.
4. ^ David Marshall Lang, The Bulgarians: from pagan times to the Ottoman conquest, Westview Press, 1976, p. 67.
5. ^ Tom Winnifrith, Badlands, Borderlands: A History of Northern Epirus/Southern Albania, Duckworth, 2002, p. 83

Inscription in the National Historical Museum of Bulgaria citing Nicholas and Ripsime as grandparents of Ivan Vladislav, the son of Aron.

https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:National_Historical_Museu...

English: National Historical Museum of Bulgaria, in Sofia:
In the year 6523 (= 1015-1016) since the creation of the world, this fortress, built and made by Ivan, Tsar of Bulgaria, was renewed with the help and the prayers of Our Most Holy Lady and through the intercession of her twelve supreme Apostles. The fortress was built as a haven and for the salvation of the lives of the Bulgarians. The work on the fortress of Bitola commenced on the twentieth day of October and ended on the [...] This Tsar was Bulgarian by birth, grandson of the pious Nikola and Ripsimia, son of Aaron, who was brother of Samuil, Tsar of Bulgaria, the two who routed the Greek army of Emperor Basil II at Stipone where gold was taken [...] and in [...] this Tsar was defeated by Emperor Basil in 6522 (= 1014) since the creation of the world in Klyutch and died at the end of the summer

——

I think this validates Hripsime as wife of Nicholas. But not her parentage.

Nicolas, count in Bulgaria

—-

I guess what I’m not understanding is what’s ambiguous about the term “possibly the daughter of?”

Practice on Geni for all of history is to link within profile to “jump to” possible parents, and not to make it a tree link.

So far everything I’ve seen is “possible,” not certain. So why the sense of certitude?

David Marshall Lang, The Bulgarians: from pagan times to the Ottoman conquest is in my school's library. I will swing by after class is done to take a look at it.

Nicholas Adontz's book is here: https://archive.org/details/Adontz2018SamuelRoiDesBulgares/mode/2up It is in French but the sections relevant to Rhipsime are quoted in Medlands. http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/BULGARIA.htm "Samuil, later Tsar of Bulgaria, names "my father, my mother, my brother…Nicolas…--- and David" in a monument erected in [992/93][111]. Adontz quotes the monument (in Bulgarian) in full, including Samuil’s mother’s name. However, on the subsequent page he states that "du nom de la mère il ne reste que la dernière lettre" and that "Michel de Devol permet de le rétablir en témoignant que le père de Samuel s’appelait Nicolas et la mère Ριψίμη"[112]. Unfortunately, he gives no citation for this statement but on an earlier page quotes a passage inserted in another text written by "Michel évêque de Devol", and cites a German secondary source although it is not at all clear from what he writes that this is where the passage naming Samuil’s mother can be found."
It does not list her parents and it even introduces uncertainties into what her name actually was.

He seems to be my 35th great grsndfather.

The French wikipedia page for Samuel of Bulgaria writes "La mère de Samuel s'appelle Rhipsime (elle est peut-être d'origine arménienne1 ; Christian Settipani la fait fille d'Achot II Bagratouni et de sa femme Marie de Katchen)." https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_(tsar_de_Bulgarie) It seems we really need to get our hands on Christian Settipani's work as he seems to be the one to make the connection.

I agree. It seems that Ripsimia may be the mother of Samuel, Tsar of Bulgaria and the wife of Nicolas, count of Bulgaria. It looks like Jason Scott Wills has already made the correction on his profile.

Lang simply writes that "The death of this formidable warrior provoked a of sudden revival Bulgarian independence, centred on the western regions of Macedonia. It is a remarkable coincidence that this resurgence of Bulgarian independence was headed by a family of four brothers of wholly or partly Armenian descent - as in the case of Emperor Tzimiskes, who had overthrown the Bulgarian realm of Symeon, Peter and Boris II. These four brothers, David, Moses, Aaron and Samuel, are commonly known as the Comitopuli, their father Nicholas being a provincial comes or count, possibly governor of Sofia. Their mother’s name was Hripsime, a common and exclusively Armenian name, taken from that of one of the holiest martyrs of the early Armenian Church." (pg. 69). http://www.promacedonia.org/en/dlb/dlb_b.htm#p3

Mentions that their mother is Hripsime, which is an Armenian name. Nothing else.

There are references to Ashot & Marie here in French:

https://archive.org/details/LaurentLarmEntreByzIslam/page/n290/mode...

https://archive.org/details/LaurentLarmEntreByzIslam/page/n290/mode...

L'Arménie entre Byzance et l'Islam depuis la conquête arabe jusqu'en 836 Author J. Laurent

Some more citations here:

http://sites.rootsweb.com/~cousin/html/p141.htm#i16092

[S1037] DFA (Bagrat), online http://www.ut.ee/~votan/articles/bagrat.htm
, Part 2, V.
[S1578] Ian S. R. Mladjov, "Reconsidering Agatha".
[S1266] Agathangelos, Agathangelos, for the legend of St. Rhipsime's martyrdom.
[S1021] Milun Jevremoviæ (e-mail address), Re: Serbian line in "Re: Serbian line," newsgroup message 1999/02/23.
[S1197] Ian S. R. Mladjov, "The Bulgarian Descent of H.M. Simeon II".
[S204] Roderick W. Stuart, RfC, 309-37.

��The Bulgarian Descent of H.M. Simeon II,� Sega, April 13, 2002:
http://www.segabg.com/13042002/p0060016.asp�
http://www.segabg.com/13042002/p0060017.asp�
Download the complete English version of these texts as a MS Word document: Descent of Simeon II
�

I’m trying to upload the Word doc to profile. He gives bl origins for Ripsime.

Comments on his research here:

https://groups.google.com/forum/m/#!msg/soc.genealogy.medieval/bpQY...

Todd Farmarie on 5/14/02:

“...I would certainly be interested in exploring this further, but the details of the Bulgarian dinasty that relate will have to be further illuminated to know what to make of some of it. Mind you, I am not questioning it, but Bulgaria is probably the least well known (outside of Bulgaria itself) of the European royal dynasties. Some are not even aware of the conflicting claims about the four "brothers" who founded the second dinasty, and the placement of Trojan is far from uniform. Perhaps a discussion of the Bulgarian dinasty would serve as a useful precursor to the discussion of this Agatha theory.”

taf