John Ruthven, Music Master in Glasgow - This guy, was born in 1600s; not 1700s

why do you call him Music Master in Glasgow ???

and, why have you pegged his approx. date of birth
as:
Male
Birth:
estimated between 1663 and 1717 ???

that would NOT be possible
since; he had a son born

February 27, 1718

so, very likely
like his wife; born in late 1600s; and; NOT the 1700s

NEAL, you have changed dates on profiles

NEAL, you have changed names on profiles

have you also deleted a few profiles too ???

and, this is why you are out my half a century ???

I am trying to work from newest to oldest. date
and,i think I've done a pretty decent job
on most of the profiles I manage

the problem peadie profile,
you seem to NOT be able to understand this,
but, I did NOT set up this profile
someone else, did that

I started to get this profile ready
to add the correct information
for MARGARET MARION PEADIE
only to discover
you've renamed this file
MARION PEADIE ???

I'm dealing with snow storms in Canada
and, the other Ruthven person who is helping me
is dealing with wild fires in Australia
- this guy subscribes to a service which can get
birth certificates christenings; etc;
it might take us '5 days' to get the information up

NEAL, your information you've added
is actually the WRONG CENTURY

you've also added our profiles
and; typed comments on them
indicating, they are false ones...
without adding any real proof ???

I DO NOT know what your M.O. IS
however, I am finding it
very difficult to do this research properly
and, hang the right information
on the right profile
when you keep altering things
and, switching the names i'm trying to prove

- one only needs to look at the profiles
of marion peadie; & all the changes
to wonder why ???
what is the purpose to making all these changes ???

why is all this necessary ???

the strangest part of all this,
is you say you are NOT even
related to RUTHVEN

so, what is your real interest
in wanting to manage all my profiles ???

'cause i'm getting tired
of wasting my precious time
to put up information to answer your private emails
only for you to change what I put up
and; delete it

perhaps; you'll see
I think the problem is YOUR information
NOT mine !!!

until this profile reads
MARGARET MARION PEADIE

I am not putting the birth certificate here
i'll create another profile

EVIDENCE FROM THE RECORDS OF THE BURGH OF GLASGOW

1

25 April 1721: [The magistrats and toun council] Ordains the treasurer and his successors in office to pay to Mr. John Ruthven, musick master in this citie, five pund sterling, yearly, by four quarterly payments, commencing the first quarters payment at Lambass next, for his encouragement to continue and proceed in the teaching and improvement of musick for the benefit of the inhabitants; and thir presentis to continue during the magistrats and councils will and pleasure allenerly. https://archive.org/stream/extractsfromreco05glas#page/107/mode/1up
2

25 September 1725: [The magistrats and toun council] Ordain the dean of gild and bretheren to admit Mr. John Ruthven, musick master, burges and gild brother of the burgh as marrying (blank) Peadie, daughter lawful to umquhill James Peadie, merchant, burges, and gild brother thereof, and to remit his fynes and hold them as payed. https://archive.org/stream/extractsfromreco05glas#page/237/mode/1up

3

20 October 1726: John Ruthven, Musician,in Glasgow, was enrolled as a burgess and Guild Brother of Glasgow on 20 October 1726. He was admitted in right of his marriage to Marion Peadie, daughter to the deceased James Peadie, Merchant in Glasgow, burgess and guild brother. He was admitted gratis conform to an act of council dated 25 September 1725. https://archive.org/details/scottishrecordso43scotuoft/page/384

===EVIDENCE FROM THE OLD PAROCHIAL REGISTERS OF GLASGOW

1

23 May 1717: "Mr John Ruthven Marrion Peadie". [National Records of Scotland, Glasgow Marriages, 1687-1729, reference OPR.644/1/24] https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000120103466828&

2

27 February 1718: "Mr John Ruthven & Marrion Peadie a lawfull son John wit Alexr Porterfield James Christie & John Pollock". [National Records of Scotland, Glasgow Baptisms, 1707-19, reference OPR.644/1/9] https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000120280005041&

3

'''13 September 1719: "Mr. John Ruthven & Marrion Peady a lawfull daugh[ter] Anne wit Alexander Porterfield & James Christy". [National Records of Scotland, Glasgow Baptisms, 1719-28, reference OPR.644/1/10] https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000120282000874&
4

23 April 1721: "Mr John Ruthven & Margaret Peadie a lawfull son John wit Matthew Cuming & John Pollock". [National Records of Scotland, Glasgow Baptisms, 1719-28, reference OPR.644/1/10] https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000120281765103&

5

17 January 1723: "January 17 1723 Mr John Riven & Marrion Peadie a lawfull daug Barbara wit Alexander Porterfield & James Christie". [National Records of Scotland, Glasgow Baptisms, 1622-31, reference OPR.644/1/2] https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000120274672449&

6

4 March 1725: "Mr John Ruthven & Marion Peadie a lawfull son James wit James Christie & Alexander Porterfield born on thursday the 18th february last at 3 a clock in the Afternoon". [National Records of Scotland, Glasgow Baptisms, 1719-28, reference OPR.644/1/10] https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000120282153055&

7

8 October 1727: "Mr John Ruthven & Marion Peadie a lawfull son Alexander, wit, James Chrystie & Alexr Porterfield". [National Records of Scotland, Glasgow Baptisms, 1x719-1728, reference OPR.644/1/10] https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000120282789961&

8

15 February 1732: "The Cittie of Glasgow Record of Mortalitie in Anno 1732 ….. ffebr 15 Mr John Riven Musician". [National Records of Scotland, Glasgow Deaths, 1723-39, reference OPR.644/146] https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000120128436821&

9

3 March 1732: "The City of Glasgow Record of Mortalitie in Anno 1732 . . . . . March 3. Merion Peadie relict to the desiced Mr John Riven Musikener". [National Records of Scotland, Glasgow Deaths, 1723-39, reference OPR.644/1/46] https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000119973441855&

COULD I ASK WHAT EXACTLY HAPPENED TO THIS LINE

old information

→
Alexander (Thompson) Ruthven
her father
Marion Rennie - Ruthven

her mother
Alexander Ruthven
→
Robert (Witherspoon) Ruthven, SR
his father
Margaret Thompson - Ruthven
his mother
Robert Ruthven
→
John (Henderson) Ruthven
his father
Margaret Witherspoon - Ruthven (1754)
his mother
John Ruthven, Weaver in Glasgow
→
John (Peadie) Ruthven
his father
MARY HENDERSON ( 1687 - 1747)
his mother
John Ruthven, secundus, grocer in Glasgow
→
John (Hutcheson) Ruthven
his father
Marrion aka Marion Margaret Peadie - Ruthven

his mother
John Ruthven, Music Master in Glasgow
→
George (Reid) Ruthven
his father
Elspeth Hutcheson - Ruthven

his mother
George Ruthven
→
William Alexander (Clerk) Ruthven
his father
Isobel Reid - Ruthven - Birth: November 16, 1626
Daughter of James Reid
William Ruthven, resident of Brechin
→
William (Gray) Ruthven
his father
Marion Clerk
his mother
William Ruthven, Writer in Edinburgh
→
Sir William (Halyburton) Ruthven
his father
Mary Gray - Seaton - Ruthven
his mother, Daughter of Sir Patrick Gray, 4th Lord Gray andMarion Gray
Sir William Ruthven of Ballindean, Kt.
→
William Ruthven, 2nd Lord Ruthven Castle
his father
Janet Halyburton, Lady Dirletoun Castle - Birth: circa April 19, 1503
Daughter of Patrick Halyburton, 5th/6th Lord Dirletoun Castle
and Margaret Douglas - Halyburton
William Ruthven, 2nd Lord Ruthven
→
Catherine Gray of Buttergask - Stewart - Ruthven
his mother
Daughter of Andrew Gray, 2nd Lord Gray, Son of Patrick Gray, Master of Gray and Annabella FORBES-Gray
and Elisabeth Stewart, Countess of Argyll, Daughter of John Stewart, 1st Earl of Atholl and Margaret Douglas, Fair Maid of Galloway
Catherine Buttergask

William Ruthven, Lord & Master of Ruthven Castle- Birth: circa July 12, 1478
-Ruthven Castle, Perthshire, Scotland
Son of Knight and Sir William Brentford Ruthven, 1st Lord & Master of Ruthven Castle
and Lady Isabel Livingston - Lindsay - Ruthven, Countess of Brentford

http://www.geni.com/people/William-...64458449390117010?through=546...

William Brentford Ruthven, 1st Lord & Master of Ruthven
is the 14th great grandfather of Susan Lynne Schwenger.

what was the original information on this profile
before it was changed to
john Ruthven, music master in Glasgow ???

the Canadian Ruthven
refer to the original settler
as, a master weaver ?

there is also a fair bit of information
also on this thread, before a lot of geni.com
got corrupted with changes

John Ruthven, Music Master in Glasgow

I also will make sure I check
THE CANADIAN IMMIGRATION forward
by changing the name to being
in capitals
- and; putting jr. and. sr. etc.,
into the proper fields
-PLEASE DO NOT CHANGE THE NAMES
OR; ADJUST THE CAPITALS to lower case
(if that is necessary, i'll do that after I have things verified)

- UNTIL I am finished; if you have issue with things,
kindly, type the problem to this thread,
so, I might address it,
I am gathering
photographs of people
photographs of graves
birth and death certificates etc.,
since CANADA was pioneered
there was NOT very much here but bush
when these folks first immigrated to this region
- HOPEFULLY the Canadian side will end up with all the correct information on Ruthven, on this side of the pond

this info I had before some changes happened

MY LINEAGE

You
Susan Lynne Schwenger
→
Lynda Mae Handy - Schwenger
your mother
Murray Bruce aka Muff Schwenger
your father
→
James aka Jim Edward Handy JR.
her father
Viola Mae Drury - Handy
her father, Daughter of Dr. George Walker Herbert Drury
and Eva "Effie" Teresa Kopitoski - Drury,
Daughter of Daughter of Michel aka Michael Kopitoski aka Kopitoskie aka Kopetoski aka Kopotoskie aka Kopitowsky - Born August 18, 1853, Died January 13, 1933 (79) Hastings County, Ontario, Canada
& Amelia Annie Musclow - Kopitoski - Born March 4, 1855.
Daughter of Johann Gottfried (John) Musclow and Emilie Caroline Friederike (Amelia) Schroeder
(Michael Kopitoski)
James Edward Handy Jr.
→
James aka Jim (Ruthven) Handy SR.
his father
Ida Eva Morton Russell - Handy
his mother, Daughter of Robert James Russell and UNKNOWN Morton - Russell
→
Marion (Rennie) Ruthven - Handy - Satchell
his mother
Edward Handy
his father, Son of Charles W. Handy & Mary Gibbons-Handy,
Son of Benjamin Thomas aka Ben Handy Esq. (The Handy Circus Troupe & Astley's Circus)
and Mary Huntley - Grant - Handy - Catawba Tribe
Daughter of Chief Neil Huntley - Catawba Tribe
Marion or "Merne" Ruthven - Handy - Satchell

→
Alexander (Thompson) Ruthven
her father
Marion Rennie - Ruthven

her mother
Alexander Ruthven
→
Robert (Witherspoon) Ruthven, SR
his father
Margaret Thompson - Ruthven
his mother
Robert Ruthven
→
John (Henderson) Ruthven
his father
Margaret Witherspoon - Ruthven (1754)
his mother
John Ruthven, Weaver in Glasgow
→
John (Peadie) Ruthven
his father
MARY HENDERSON ( 1687 - 1747)
his mother
John Ruthven, secundus, grocer in Glasgow
→
John (Hutcheson) Ruthven
his father
Marrion aka Marion Margaret Peadie - Ruthven

his mother
John Ruthven, Music Master in Glasgow
→
George (Reid) Ruthven
his father
Elspeth Hutcheson - Ruthven

his mother
George Ruthven
→
William Alexander (Clerk) Ruthven
his father
Isobel Reid - Ruthven - Birth: November 16, 1626
Daughter of James Reid
William Ruthven, resident of Brechin
→
William (Gray) Ruthven
his father
Marion Clerk
his mother
William Ruthven, Writer in Edinburgh
→
Sir William (Halyburton) Ruthven
his father
Mary Gray - Seaton - Ruthven
his mother, Daughter of Sir Patrick Gray, 4th Lord Gray andMarion Gray
Sir William Ruthven of Ballindean, Kt.
→
William Ruthven, 2nd Lord Ruthven Castle
his father
Janet Halyburton, Lady Dirletoun Castle - Birth: circa April 19, 1503
Daughter of Patrick Halyburton, 5th/6th Lord Dirletoun Castle
and Margaret Douglas - Halyburton
William Ruthven, 2nd Lord Ruthven
→
Catherine Gray of Buttergask - Stewart - Ruthven
his mother
Daughter of Andrew Gray, 2nd Lord Gray, Son of Patrick Gray, Master of Gray and Annabella FORBES-Gray
and Elisabeth Stewart, Countess of Argyll, Daughter of John Stewart, 1st Earl of Atholl and Margaret Douglas, Fair Maid of Galloway
Catherine Buttergask

William Ruthven, Lord & Master of Ruthven Castle- Birth: circa July 12, 1478
-Ruthven Castle, Perthshire, Scotland
Son of Knight and Sir William Brentford Ruthven, 1st Lord & Master of Ruthven Castle
and Lady Isabel Livingston - Lindsay - Ruthven, Countess of Brentford

http://www.geni.com/people/William-...64458449390117010?through=546...

putting this here for the curator - ben angel ?

Dear Susan,

I have been tinkering with the family tree of the family of Lord Ruthven but I do not think that I have altered the line of ancestry you have identified for yourself.

I have been trying to find out more about Sir William Ruthven and the two sons that are present of his family tree. As things stand this does not look right, and it would be nice if the genealogy could be proved. I am not related to this family but I am interested in them. A link to him follows:

Sir William Ruthven of Ballindean, Kt.

My attention was drawn to John Ruthven, Music Master in Glasgow, because of my particular interest in the burgesses and guild brothers of Glasgow.

I hope that this answers some of the questions you have.

Kind Regards,

Neil

John Ruthven has been identified as the son of George John Ruthven and Elspeth Hutcheson, and the grandson of William Alexander Ruthven and Isobel Reid, BUT THERE IS NO SUCH PERSONS AS GEORGE JOHN RUTHVEN, or WILLIAM ALEXANDER RUTHVEN!

A man named William Ruthven and his wife Isobel Reid did have a son named George Ruthven, whose baptism was registered at Brechin on 4 January 1663, but he is not the same person as George John Ruthven. This NONSENSE has been published in at least ten pedigrees published by MyHeritage, and identified by Geni as SMARTMATCHES

https://www.myheritage.com/matchingresult-27d82aff1958d4298f0ef6205...

Unless I hear a convincing argument for not doing so I propose to disconnect these invented profiles from the Ruthven family tree, and delete them.

WHY HAS SOMEONE REMOVED THE WIFE
OF SIR WILLIAM RUTHVEN, KT ???

William Alexander (Clerksone) Ruthven
his father
Isobel or Isoble Reid - Ruthven
his mother

→

William Ruthven
his father
Marione Clerksone
his mother
→

Sir William Ruthven, Kt. Knight
his father
Mary Gray
his mother
→

William Ruthven, 2nd Lord Ruthven
his father
Janet Halyburton, Lady Dirletoun Castle (Ruthven)
his mother
→
Catherine Gray of Buttergask
his mother
William Ruthven, Master of Ruthven , 1st lord of ruthven
his father
→

Elizabeth Stewart
her mother
Andrew Gray, 2nd Lord Gray
her father
→

John Stewart of Balveny, 1st Earl of Atholl
her father
Margaret Douglas, Fair Maid of Galloway
her mother
→

Joan Beaufort, Queen of Scots
his mother
James Stewart, the Black Knight of Lorn
his father

I have already replied to you enquiry.

In a pedigree published in the Ruthven Family Papers it has been claimed that John Ruthven (Music Master in Glasgow) was the great-grandson of John Ruthven, third Earl of Gowrie. He is said to be the son of another John Ruthven, who may have been associated with Kilmarnock, but the author could not identify his grandfather by name, or provide any evidence which proved the claimed relationship with Earl John.

https://archive.org/details/ruthvenfamilypap00cowauoft/page/62/mode...

The pedigree published in the Ruthven Family Papers conflicts with another seven pedigrees published by MyHeritage, which claim that John Ruthven (Music Master in Glasgow) was the son of George Ruthven and Elspeth Hutcheson, residents of St. Ninians parish in Stirlingshire, whose baptism was registered at St. Ninians on 4 May 1688.

https://www.myheritage.com/matchingresult-28bcc236b7dd6a11edc4a6395...

Presently, it is not possible to confirm or refute the ancestry proposed by either of these pedigrees (The old parochial registers are unhelpful in this regard, although the baptismal registers of St. Ninians parish do suggest that George Ruthven’s son may have remained there, married, and had his own family. Details are given in the profile overview). In view of this conflict, and because of the lack of evidence, I believe that John Ruthven, Music Master in Glasgow, should be disconnected from the family tree of George Ruthven and his wife Elspeth Hutcheson. I also believe that his relationship field should be locked in order to ensure that his profile is not the subject of a wrong merge in the future. In the event that proof of relationship is eventually found the profile can be unlocked in order to allow his ancestry to be progressed.

the john Ruthven, I am searching for
was born 1687 ?
I think he is a weaver
but, you say music master

i'll add a few more things I found to media

thank you
susan

What single piece of evidence was it that led you to believe that John Ruthven was born in 1687? If you have evidence (not a claim or an opinion) you should share it.

If you have evidence that identifies John Ruthven as a weaver you should share it. All of the evidence so far discovered identifies him as a Musician, or Music Master. On 25 April 1721 the magistrates and town council of Glasgow agreed to pay him five pounds sterling annually for the: "teaching and improvement of musick for the benefit of the inhabitants". https://archive.org/stream/extractsfromreco05glas#page/107/mode/1up

witherspoon maybe wotherspoon and could also be weatherspoon

Susan Lynne Schwenger, it looks like a lot of the images you've added to this profile are about people other than John Ruthven. Can you help re-tag them to the appropriate profiles?

https://www.geni.com/photo/view/6000000008442250405?album_type=phot...= for example appears to be a William Ruffin/Ruthven.

Sir William Ruthven of Ballindean, Kt. looks like the man who goes with https://www.geni.com/photo/view/6000000008442250405?album_type=phot...=

And so forth.

Mary Campbell is the Mary Campbell who married James, 7th Lord Ruthven of Freeland but the sketch's caption says Mary Campbell married James, 6th Lord Ruthven of Freeland. That is incorrect; the wife of the 6th lord and mother of the 7th was Lady Mary Elizabeth Leslie. So the book containing https://www.geni.com/photo/view/6000000008442250405?album_type=phot...= is wrong. Use it cautiously.

This info; i believe should go here

William Ruthven
mentioned in the record of Alexander Ruthven

Name: William Ruthven
Sex: Male
Wife: Marioun Clerk
Son: Alexander Ruthven
Other information in the record of Alexander Ruthven
from Scotland Births and Baptisms, 1564-1950

Name:
Alexander Ruthven
Event Type:
Christening
Event Date:
20 Nov 1608
Event Place:
Edinburgh, Midlothian, Scotland
Event Place (Original):
Edinburgh Parish, Edinburgh, Midlothian, Scotland
Gender:
Male
Father's Name:
William Ruthven
Mother's Name:
Marioun Clerk

clerk =clerksone Marioun = Marione

None of that information is about John Ruthven, so it will not be added to this profile. It should instead be added to the profiles of the people mentioned.

Susan Lynne Schwenger -- as Private User points out above, the profile that this tread focuses on -- John Ruthven, Music Master in Glasgow -- has a great many documents attached in the Media section -- at the time of this writing, 98 -- most of them added by you, and most of them not about this John Ruthven at all.

Could you move them to where they belong?

The sheer number of documents means that there is essentially no real information, since it's almost impossible to sift through them to find things that actually have to do with this profile.

YES, i WILL move them to where they belong
neal wanted to see them
in order that we both properly tag them

i have confirmed that tthe right one is 1688, not 1687 (not sure; where exactly the 1687 came from) ?

ashley
- we have been trying to prove the bloodline
between LORD 2
and, this fellow

- so, yes, all of the documents uploaded
are important to this blood line

-and, must be sorted to the correct spot

but, it all begins at JOHN RUTHVEN, music maker

if i scatter them all over the place
then, it is NOT easy seen
how all the parts of the whole puzzle fit together

i have likely put 500 hrs of work into this RUTHVEN THING

and, NOW, i think i have all the pieces of the puzzle

i didn;t upload them to one spot
to make life difficult !!!

i uploaded them, so, ANNE & NEAL could see them all
and, then, he could help me sort them to the correct spots

Susan Lynne Schwenger -- as I have written to you in several places, none of the documents you have been uploading are useful to the issue that you are interested in.

Here is what I said last time:

I went through the lineage you posted here, going back to John of Gaunt.
All of it is in Geni and is just fine, and isn't necessary to discuss,
UNTIL
we get to John Ruthven, Music Master in Glasgow.
That's where the line, as you have it, breaks down.
Nothing else is relevant, and all the extra information not only doesn't illuminate anything, it makes things very hard to follow.
As we have said, what is missing is evidence of THIS John Ruthven's parents.
We have evidence of him, and his marriage, and his work life, and that is all very clear.
And we have a birth record for the John Ruthven that was born to George and Elspeth.
You want for it to be accepted on Geni that John Ruthven in Glasgow is the same John Ruthven that was born to George and Elspeth in Stirling.
It is possible that he is the same person, but there is no evidence that he is.
Until that evidence is found -- if indeed it exists, which it looks like it doesn't -- Geni policy at this time is to leave John Ruthven's parents unknown.
Niel has provided an extensive explanation of the various issues about his parentage, in the Overview for the profile. So a discussion of the various pedigrees given for him, and the problems with him, is there.
That's where things stand at the moment.
No discussion of peripheral relatives, or other pieces of the line, will help in this.
The only thing that will change anything will be a paper trail that makes it clear that the John Ruthven born in Stirling to George and Elspeth later moved to Glasgow and married Marion Peebles.
It would be wonderful if their marriage record listed their parents! In some places, at some times, that has been true.
But alas, not in this case.

That is what we need -- it's only that link that needs to be addressed. The other pieces are not helping, because there is a piece that does not exist. At least as far as we have seen so far.

I have a family history that starts at
(that I Know of) John and Margret Marion Peddie(Peadie)
of 1695.

Their children I have listed are

Anne(1719-1814),
John (Apr.25 1721-?)
maried Mary Henderson on May 17, 1747.
A son who pass on in infancy,
James (1725-1808)
married Lillian Henderson,

Alexander whom died in 1727

and Thomas who
married Margaret Nesbitt,

Duncan who
married Jean Brown,

Archibald who
married Elizabeth Morrison.

Robert (1777-1852) who
married Margaret Thompson
(1770-1863).

Their son John (1799-?).
He stayed in Glasgow.

His children were:
Margraret,
Agnes,
Jesse,
Jean,
Mary,
Kathren
and John

.In 1863 he went to USA.

Alexander's children were:

Robert (1831-1910) single,

George (1833-1907)married
Christina Carins (1846-1932),

Alexander(1834-1870) single,

William (1835-1923)single,

margaret (1837-1916)
married William Blain,

Marion (Merne) Ruthvn (1839-1903)
married Edward handy
remarried William Satchell,

John Ruthven(1840-1916)
married Frances Stevenson(1849-1888),

James (1842-1929) married Eleanor Maguiness(1849-?),

Mary (1844-?) Married John Black,

Isobelle (1846-1939) married Patrick Fitzpatrick.

I got more and more information
about it my Grandfather
did all the research on our family history.

https://www.genealogy.com/forum/surnames/topics/ruthven/79/

i'll check this with my records