Abigail Roark (unknown) - To the detractors of family oral traditions about Abigail

Cherokee genealogists have very good records, and of course are quite familiar with Dragging Canoe. She was not his daughter.

By the way, she’s in my own tree (Abigail (unknown) Roark is your third great aunt's great grandmother.). I’ve been looking into her for 10 years. The rest of my tree area has been easy enough to verify. But this Abigail was mixed up by people with

With a later Abigail, whose descendants filed claims, which were rejected.

The whole story is explained better here:

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/54197476/abigail-roark/flower

Hope this helps you understand.

Not enough detail at Findagrave.com. They may once have had a detailed discussion, but not now - just short back-and-forth "Yes she was/No she wasn't".

I seem to recall a more detailed discussion, including documentary evidence (or lack thereof), DNA evidence, and so forth, right here on Geni. (A search of Discussions on "abigail roark" turns up 13 different discussions.)

As for oral traditions, I can confidently state that they may at best contain a small kernel of truth, but almost always are heavily embroidered to "improve the story". Got several of them, and so far have busted every one.

Luckily I had copied the research notes formerly posted on Findagrave into the geni profile “about.” It’s interesting they’ve been removed from the Findagrave page; I pointed to it because I wanted the researcher’s points as she made them.

But it’s not only her research. Ancestry trees had had floating around “proof” photos of Abigail & Charles Roark - who lived and died before photography. F.A.G. currently has an image of unknown provenance for her. Charles Roark was not only mixed up with a different Charles Roark, he was given fanciful “his father was smuggled by a Catholic Priest to America” origins.

We have a large, determined, energetic & imaginative family here! :) I’m proud to be part of them, finding my Roark great aunts was very helpful to my tree.

The evidence supporting Abigail as Cherokee is slim for context reasons also. There were indeed some well known liaisons between traders and Cherokee women. The women (generally speaking) lived in their home villages with their sisters, brothers and children while the traders conducted their business, sometimes over a wide range. (Hope I’m saying this right.). The farmer / pioneers, on the other hand, were bitter enemies of the Cherokee - “especially” Dragging Canoe. Aside from the known fact that he had one son, that’s it ... it’s pretty inconceivable that the fiercest anti European warrior of his time would find any advantage at all in letting a daughter marry out.

Which doesn’t stop the internet ...

I’ll copy / paste a quick summation from https://www.wikitree.com/g2g/699954/abigail-a-kwee-gay-la-unknown-r...

“ Abigail Roark, Polly Reed Roark and Raven Canoe were three separate women, the two white women were married to two different Charles Roarks- one of VA and one of NC, both of Dutch decent with no NA. Raven Canoe, by all Cherokee documentation is a myth as Dragging Canoe had one son who died before having children and the entire Moytoy line has been disproven- see the Cherokee Genealogy group on fb- they have access to all Cherokee records and have researched the Moytoy/Pathkiller/Canoe lines extensively. The children listed are a mix of children from Polly Reed, Charles Roark of NC, Abigail Roark of NC and Abigail Roark of VA. We need to base genealogy on facts alone. The Oklahoma Census and Rolls proves that E-su-tee was male."

I am familiar with the sources that you presented and have carefully examined them. The author of the information provided on this page for Abigail Roark (unknown) entitled "diambiguation" doesn't deny the possibility of Abigail Roark of Ashe as being American Indian nor does he/she abstain from using the name "Raven Canoe" in referring to her.
From this information, I make the hypothesis that the children of Charles Roark that were born in Virginia are those of Charles Roark of Grayson Virginia and possibly his wife Polly Reed; and the children born in Ashe County NC are those of Charles Roark of Ashe and Abigail. Se below:

Children of Charles of Grayson Co VA, son of Timothy Roark never left VA. Charles of Grayson was living in VA with wives Polly Reed (md. 1800) and Isabella Hale (md. 1823)
Sarah Taylor b.1775 Washington County, Virginia
Jane Pope b.1789 Virginia
Jane Roark b.1790 Virginia, United States
Timothy Roark b. 1790 Augusta County, Virginia
Martin N Roark b.1802 Grayson County, Virginia - mother, Polly Reed?

Children of Charles Roark of Ashe County NC from wife Abigail Raven Canoe

Rebecca Vanover b.1778 Ashe County, NC
Jesse Roark b. 1778 NC
Mary “Polly” Lewis b.1785 Ashe County, NC
Kiziah Susandra Price b. 1787 Ashe County,NC
Martin Roark b.1790 Ashe County, NC
Eleanor Lewis b. 1794 NC
Charles B. Roark, JR b.1795 NC
Abigail Mahala b.1798 Ashe County, NC

Now it's not all that unlikely that some of the children born in Virginia counties bordering NC are indeed those of Abigail, but this maybe can be a good start at sorting out this confounded family.

Also, i have seen a Catherine Roark b. 1784 on some of the lists of the Roark family. However, I believe that she was Catherine Perry b. 1784 to Cornelius V and Abigail Easterd who is often confounded with Abigail Roark. She was the only one on record from Vanover/Roark families that filed for membership in the Cherokee tribe, and she was rejected.

Also, in the book "Tell Them They Lie: The Sequoyah Myth" by Traveller Bird, it's written on page 46 that Dragging Canoe's first wife Eni and his daughter Ewi were captured::

"the Choctaws told Dragging Canoe's first wife that she and
her daughter, a child of six, were wanted by Dragging Canoe on White Ridge to help in his camp. Of course, it was a ruse. The Choctaws captured Eni, and her child Ewi. Months later, Dragging Canoe learned that his wife and child had been sold to the whites in Virginia. Through messengers, the whites began to negotiate for the exchange of prisoners. By the end of 1789, Dragging Canoe had exchanged
three black and two white prisoners for his wife Eni. But the whites demanded all white prisoners in the Cherokee Nation in exchange
for his daughter Ewi. Therefore, the parley dragged on. Dragging Canoe had no assurance whatsoever that his daughter was safe, other than the white Indian agent's written message, sent through bribed friendly Cherokees."

Also on page 72 it is written:

"At daybreak, one day in September 1794, the white army surprised the village of Tsisdvnoyi, where they opened fire with their cannons, and slaughtered Indian warriors, women and children. Both of Dragging Canoe's widows, and two of his daughters, were killed, as was Bloody Fellow."

This event happens in this story after Dragging Canoe is killed in battle, which is a different account of his death from that which you can find in wikipedia etc. Also, on page 38 it is written of his father:

"Dragging Canoe was trained from birth for his position as war chief of the nation. Nineteen years before, his father Gvlihudhanisi, chief of Tellico (Tahli or Taliwa), located on the Long Island of the Holston (Cherokee) River, was one of the twentyfour village chiefs who were murdered by the soldiers at Fort Prince Ceorge under a pretense "peace treaty" between Governor Lyttelton and Attakullakulla."

And of his mother on page 44:

"The Beloved Woman Oh, mother of Dragging Canoe, pondered over what method to use to dispose of their unwanted guest."

Again, the account in this book of the parents of Dragging Canoe differs from the Attakullakulla and Ollie Ani'-Wa'Ya found in the rest of the accounts of his life.

So I'm am really curious about what is the Cherokee nation's opinion of this work or what information they may have to debunk it?

You would need to ask the Cherokee genealogists. I have, and the answer I got is that Dragging Canoe had one known son.

I suggest you post the links to the sources you quote so we can examine for ourselves in context.

By the way, what’s your descent from Abigail Roark?

Here’s a link:

http://americancherokeeassociation.com/ancient-cherokee-knowledge/t...

Here’s about the author: Traveller Bird; apparently a controversial book on Sequoyah.

https://books.google.com/books?id=eqfhtZ0-NkIC&lpg=PR46&ots...

https://5019.sydneyplus.com/Heard_Museum_ArgusNET_Final/Portal/Port...

Where does the name “Raven Canoe” come from? It’s not in Traveller Bird: he called her “Ewi.” It’s not in Hicks, which has been debunked.

There’s another book calls her “Jane.”

How does “Dragging Canoe’s kidnapped daughter” reconcile with this?

https://www.ancestry.com/boards/topics.ethnic.natam.nations.cheroke...

“I am really interested in the kidnapped daughter of Dragging Canoe, i have been told that she was named later, MARTHA TILDA SNOW, and also that she is my great grandmothers, grandmother. I was also told that many people thinks that Little Owl is a boy, but it was really a girl, and that she was the one kidnapped. And that Dragging canoe also had a brother named little owl. ...”

Martha "Tilda" Allen

I don't really take seriously that any character in Traveller Bird's story could be Abigail. It just really shows that not all the Cherokee accounts of Dragging Canoe and his children are consistent with the Cherokee establishments official position. There are allot of political controversies involved with the Cherokee identity and prejudices also which has to be taken into account when doing this research. Also, I doubt that Dragging Canoe, who had so much status among his people that he wouldn't have abundant squaws giving him opportunities, that he would only have one child. Just because only one child is documented doesn't mean he had no other descendents. But I too am not convinced that most of these children attributed to Dragging Canoe on the internet are any more than just fictions born on the internet. But if they are more than that, then possibly they originated in literature like Traveling Bird's. And as for Dragging Canoe being the father of Abigail, the only possible evidence that I've seen reference for this that would have any weight of credit is the old Bible in the Davidson family that contains a geneological record about this, which I have not contacted anyone yet to verify this claim. Maybe some families have records like this and heirlooms from Abigail but are not so willing to share with the public so openly since they may be concerned about them getting stolen either to get a good price for them or maybe to be destroyed for political reasons. As for the census records marking Abigail as a free white female, I would think it is likely that if any Indian woman or mixed race married to a white man that could pass for white would not too unlikely do so to avoid being taxed.

As for my self, I am also a descendant of Abigail through her daughter Rebecca who married Richard Vanover. She was the great grandmother of one of my gx3 grandmothers and one of my gx3 grandfathers who where siblings and the children of Charles Vanover, one of Rebecca's sons. It has been passed down from my maternal grandmother's maternal grandmothers and probable through grandfathers and great aunt who were married to a Roark who was a direct descendant of Charles Roark and Abigail of Ashe that there was a Cherokee woman way back generations. Nothing more was reported that that: not a name nor a place in any recorded ancestoral lines, not any embellishments nor any stories nor any Cherokee traditions passed down. Regardless of what the truth is about Abigail, it interests me to attempt to crack a historical mystery like this, and it can show me insights about how accounts about historical people and places can become confusing after hundreds of years.

Commenting solely to say:

Please, please don't use the "s----" word to describe Native women. I'm sure that you're unaware of this, but it's experienced by Native folks as profoundly racist and misogynistic.

I realize that wasn't your intent, so hopefully you'll appreciate knowing this in the future so that you can avoid ever using it. Thank you.

Cherokee genealogists have been clear Dragging Canoe had one “known” child by unnamed wife who died young; they don’t say he didn’t have other wives and children. In fact I know an enrolled EC member whose family tradition includes descent from him, but they don’t know who or how.

So this is much like doing any sort of pre record genealogy, where tracking down the story origination gives a clue, that’s why I asked your line.

The Traveller Bird story has a ring of an “actual” (as opposed to internet) story about it, and his other published book was of traditional tales. The story doesn’t tell us what became of Ewi; Bird didn’t cite documents so we don’t know his source; and publication is from the early 1970s. I can see that in the 1990s “Ewi” became Jane, or Matilda, or Raven, or Sarah Naky, or Abigail ... :):)

We know about the two Abigails being conflated, and the “Cherokee ancestor” is a rejected claim c 1902 in the Vanover side. Is that perhaps your oral tradition?

I was especially interested in this Sequoyah story because a rejected claim in my family is from a supposed other child of Wurteh, Sequoyah’s mother.

Traveller Bird’s account of Dragging Canoe and his family is fiction. When American militia’s destroyed the Cherokee towns in 1776, Dragging Canoe’s family and followers moved west, below Chattanooga to the area where Tennessee, Alabama, and Georgia come together. There is ZERO evidence that any member of his family had any connection with a white spouse or partner. He was violently opposed to white settlers and settlement and spent his entire adult life fighting white encroachment. It’s theoretically possible that he has biological descendants through daughters, but if so they are unknown and would not be intermarried with whites in the 18th century or remain in the East after 1839.

I wonder why it is that Dragging Canoe got picked as the Fictitous father. Could have at least tried someone didn’t hate settlers.

Traveler Bird's work is not fiction. It's a biography, a collection of written and oral sources from people who were associated with Sequoya and Tsiyu Gansini. It doesn't matter if it contradicts the "officially established version" of these figures, or even downright lies about specific things that happened. "The Officially Established Version" is not above lies either. But some stuanch scientismists want to move the goal posts and make history like a hard science.

Anyway, that is interesting too why they would choose Dragging Canoe a Abigail's Lnu's alledged father? It would seem that it would save themselves' trouble if they were applying for citizenship in the Cherokee Nation. Or even to be believable, "Charlie who sold fishing bate out on the corner." etc.

You might want to track down the Vanover rejected claim and read exactly what she was suggesting.

But I’m not sure that claim is the origination of the Abigail Roark Story; it’s a Vanover Story from the Roark niece. And I “think” the legend is also in non Vanover lines.

My family has (of course) vague stories of Cherokee Ancestry, with no specifics. So one of my thoughts was it’s from this Abigail and would put Story origination in the 1880 - 1910 time frame.

(Meaning - that’s when my great great aunts married Roarks).

Hmm - possibly earlier. Edith "Edy" Matilda Ross was Arkansas 1843 - 1883.

As far as I know, I'm not descendant from Cornelius Vanover V and Abigail Easterd whose daughter Catherine Perry's descendants were rejected from membership in the Cherokee nation. There is a Perry who was married to one of my 3x great grandparents who was descended from Cornelius V's half-brother, Richard Vanover and his wife Rebecca Roark who was one of the daughters of Abigail Roark of Ashe, but I have not been able to trace her to Catherine Perry, daughter of Abigail Easterd. My great aunt told me recently that my g grandmother and her mother identified themselves as Cherokee and felt very certain about that, and my gx grandmother would have grew up acquainted with her mother, her uncle Vanover, an aunt married to a Roark who was direct descendant of Abigail Roark and her husband also who was the son of her uncle Vanover. So there doesn't seem to be any indication that they argued about that because of doubt. My grandmother, who did allot of geneology research decades ago, discovered something in the records that made her reject the claims, but I think that it was about Abigail Easterd, and I don't know if it was because of the dubiousness of Cherokee claims or if it was because we were not descended from her.