Urraca d'Ivrea - Urraca doesn't exist?

Acá otro link a un libro donde se discuten las teorías de la casa de Ivrey o de los Anscarid
https://books.google.cl/books?id=a383AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA102&lpg=...

Here a link to a book where the origin an descendants of the House of Ivrea o the Anscarid are discussed
https://books.google.cl/books?id=a383AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA102&lpg=...

Sorry, Sofia, but modern redactions of older redactions of older accounts don't cut it. We need some official document (or at worst a chronicler) from her time or shortly after it, specifying who she was, who her parents were (or at least who her father was), and whom she married.

Somebody just dredged up a Mormon family tree "proving" that Grace Neale Waters Robins of Jamestown and the Eastern Shore "was" "Lady Grace O'Neil(l)", the Fictitious person cobbled up long after her time by faking her onto an Anglo-Irish pedigree and crocking the "parents' " dates (they were both born after she was).

That myth simply Will. Not. Die.

And it's so, *so* easy to disprove!

Erica Howton

Sharon Lee Doubell C
19/1/2020 at 8:37 AM
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NN is a perfectly fine way to indicate that the name of the profile in these relationships is unknown, if the relationships are undisputed.

But In the cases where not only her name but also her other relationships are unknown / disputed / spurious - this invites a mash up of trees if an unsuspecting Curator is brought in by a user with an agenda to merge this locked NN into a ready made profile connecting her back in to the spurious relationship. It is logical to avoid this happening, by leaving off the profile, and adding the assumptions about the relationships of the people we know on their profiles - not projecting them onto a profile which may not be the link that joins them at all.

While we know for sure that the Pope had a mother, and she was the wife of Gothelo; we don't know 1.whose child she was and 2. whether she was the same mother as the mother of his siblings. (Cawley presumes she is, but due to the absence of any evidence about it at all). That means that we need another (duplicate?) NN profile for this About data also attached to Berengario - which is even more contentious. It doesn't make sense.

Maven B. Helms PRO
19/1/2020 at 6:20 PM
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I don't know that we need any NNs attached to Berengario. Per MedLands he had three daughters for sure and a probable fourth - none of them named "Urraca" or "Iunca" or anything like that, none of them married to Gozelon I.

https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/NORTHERN%20ITALY%20900-1100.htm#Be...

Sharon Lee Doubell C
19/1/2020 at 6:50 PM
Report | Delete
I agree. But if you want to put the Junca research on an actual profile - that's where it would have to go. If it went on the Gothelo NN woman - it would be merged back into Berengrio's line sooner or later.
Hence - avoid all NNs in this situation.

I disagree. It's not the way we've handled similar situations: we've summarized the research into a single NN spouse. With locked relationships there is no more danger of re introducing what's not "proven" than any other relationship locked profile. Probably much less actually: not a high traffic area.

If you are concerned that a curator would disregard notes & locks, thats a different issue for a different discussion.

Let's take the issue of Curator behaviour to a curator Discussion.

Indeed. This is a genealogical discussion, and its been interesting "fact finding."

Erica Howton suggests that we "rename Uraccea back who she was, leave detached, mark fictional."

This is a good solution.

absolutely not

C
El perfil de Junca d'Ivrea, Princess of Italy fue actualizado por Sharon Lee Doubell. nombre
hace aproximadamente una hora · ver
Decisiones in-consultas- Inconsultation Decisions ¿cual es la prisa? ¿What's the rush?

OK Maven, I just wanted to help if I could.... reading some of the documents specially the books that examine antique chronicles of this family, not even the old historians are sure about the facts. There are two lines of info given by two different people living a little bit after that time, and in examining them nobody (I mean expert historians) are capable to get to a good conclusion about the real ancestors of this family, their marriages and their descendants.... so........ There you go.

Sofía

And Maven it bothers me to see that you thought I was trying to "prove" the ancestry of the lady in question at all costs, and you did not even bother to take a look at the info. I gave you all this info not for that, even you assume I did, I gave the info to let you see that so far nothing sure can be proved about it.... Not even through experts, not even through old chronicles written at the time.

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emond_du_Boullay

"King of Arms of Lorraine"

"Of Norman descent, he was born around 1510 in a place called "Le Boullay" located between Monnai and Montreuil-l'Argillé . Son of Pierre du Boullay squire, man-at-arms close to the family of Montmorency and Richarde des Chapelles governess of the daughters and nieces of the constable Anne de Montmorency.

"His grandfather Robert du Boullay known as "Marie" herald of arms of king Charles VIII had accompanied this sovereign in Italy, he would have received letters of ennobling there and would have died at the return of the expedition from Naples."

Boullay, a French historiographer authored books and manuscripts, and was employed in an official capacity with the Duke of Lorraine.

" February 5, 1542, Duke Antoine confers on him by letters patent the office of "prosecuting herald of arms of his hotel" under the title of "Clermont". He then resided in Etain and declared himself a "disciple of Jean Marot ". Very quickly attached to the person of the duke, he became first herald, then "king of arms" under the title of "Lorraine"."

"Doncques le dict Godefroy a la barbe premier duc de Lorraine Marchis: Espousa Gertrude fille ais née de Berengier le bon roy des Lombars, dont nyeut enfans pource luysuc ceda son frere Gozelon premier du nom second duc de Lorraine Marchis, qui espousa IONCA la seconde fille dudict Berengier roy des Lombars..."

"Therefore the said Godefroy the bearded first duke of Lorraine Marchis: Married Gertrude daughter of Berengier the good king of the Lombars...his brother Gozelon first of the name second duke of Lorraine Marchis, who married IONCA THE SECOND DAUGHTER of the said BERENGIER king of the Lombars..."

p. 33 in the pdf file copy of the book, "Les Genealogies des Tresillvstres Et trespuissans Princes les Ducz de Lorraine Marchis" (1549)

https://books.google.com/books?id=DTc8AAAAcAAJ&newbks=1&new...

https://familytrees.genopro.com/Azrael/Skaggs/source-source04424.htm

Hembra Urraca di Ivrea (Urracca de Italia, Ermengarde de Lorena, Urraca de Italia)Haga clic para ver Urraca di Ivrea en el árbol genealógico
Urraca nació en 0964 en Ivrea, Toscana, Italia . 1 El padre de Urraca era el rey Berengar de Italia II y su madre era Willa de la Toscana . Sus abuelos paternos fueron Margrave Adalbert (Los ricos) de Turín I y Ermengarda de Toscana ; sus abuelos maternos fueron el marqués Boso Medici de Toscana III y la princesa Willa de Borgoña . Tenía cuatro hermanos y cuatro hermanas, llamados Adelbert , Urracus , Wido , Conrad , Willa , Gerberga , Gisela yRozela . Ella era la segunda más joven de los nueve niños.
Cuadro de pedigrí de antepasados
Bonifacio de Lucca I * - b.0775 d.05 oct 0823
Adalberto de Toscana I - n. 0835 en Florencia, Toscana, Italia d. 0889
Berta - b.0805
Bonifacio de la Toscana - n. 0865 en Florencia, Toscana, Italia d. 0894
Duque Guy de Spoleto I * - n. 0804 d. 0858 en Spoleto, Umbria, Italia
Rothilde de Spolete - b.0832
Adelaide Carolingia de Italia * - b.0807
Margrave Adalbert (Los ricos) de Turín I - n. 0880 en Ivrea, región de Piamonte, Toscana, Italia d. 0932 en Spoleto, Toscana, Italia
<Desconocido>
Rey Berengar de Italia II - n. 900 en Bamberg, Alemania d. 06 ago. 0966 en Bamberg, Alemania
Bonifacio de Lucca I * - b.0775 d.05 oct 0823
Adalberto de Toscana I - n. 0835 en Florencia, Toscana, Italia d. 0889
Berta - b.0805
Marchese Adalberto (Los ricos) de Toscana II - n. 0855 en Florencia, Toscana, Italia d.17 ago 0915 en Florencia, Toscana, Italia
Duque Guy de Spoleto I * - n. 0804 d. 0858 en Spoleto, Umbria, Italia
Rothilde de Spolete - b.0832
Adelaide Carolingia de Italia * - b.0807
Ermengarda de la Toscana - b.0901 d.29 feb 0932
Sacro Emperador Romano Lotario Romano I * - n. 0795 en Altdorf, Baviera, el 29 de septiembre de 0855 en Pruem, Renania, Prusia
Rey Lotario (El Sajón) Lorraine II - n. 0835 en Alsacia-Lorena d. 07 agosto 0869 en Plaisance, Italia
Condesa Ermengarde de Tours * - n. 0800 en Alsacia, Francia d.20 mar. 0851
La princesa berta de lorena - n. 0863 en Florencia, Toscana, Italia d. 08 mar. 0924 en Florencia, Toscana, Italia
Conde Liudolf (El Grande) de Sajonia Oriental * - b.0806 d.0866
Waldrade de Alsacia - b.0824 d.0868
Hedwige de Friuli - b.0820
Urraca di Ivrea - n. 0964 en Ivrea, Toscana, Italia
Conde de Arles Boso (The Old) d'Arles III * - b.0800 en Turín, Italia d.0855
Duque de Borgoña-Transjurane Hubert d'Arles - b.0830 d.0864
Richilde de Amiens * - b.0800 en Amiens, Somme, Picardía, Francia d.0883
Comte d'Arles Theobald d'Arles I - n. 0860 d. jun. 0887
<Desconocido>
Marqués Boso Medici de Toscana III - n. 0881 en Florencia, Toscana, Italia d. 0936 en Arles, Toulouse, Francia
Sacro Emperador Romano Lotario Romano I * - n. 0795 en Altdorf, Baviera, el 29 de septiembre de 0855 en Pruem, Renania, Prusia
Rey Lotario (El Sajón) Lorraine II - n. 0835 en Alsacia-Lorena d. 07 agosto 0869 en Plaisance, Italia
Condesa Ermengarde de Tours * - n. 0800 en Alsacia, Francia d.20 mar. 0851
La princesa berta de lorena - n. 0863 en Florencia, Toscana, Italia d. 08 mar. 0924 en Florencia, Toscana, Italia
Conde Liudolf (El Grande) de Sajonia Oriental * - b.0806 d.0866
Waldrade de Alsacia - b.0824 d.0868
Hedwige de Friuli - b.0820
Willa de Toscana - b.0924 en Toscana, Italia d.0936 en Bamburg, Alemania
Rey Conrad Auxerre Borgoña I * - n. 800 en Borgoña, Francia, el 16 de febrero de 0863.
Conde Conrad de Auxerre - n. 0825 en Borgoña, Francia d. 0887
Adelaida de Tours y Alsacia * - n. 0810 en Tours, Indre y Loira, Francia d. 0866
Rey Rodolfo de Borgoña I - n. 0847 en Borgoña, Francia, 25 de octubre de 0912
Waldrada - b.0830
La princesa Willa de Borgoña - n. 0906 en Borgoña, Francia d. 0936
Conde de Autun y Metz Budwin de Autun y Metz * - b.0820 d.0867
Rey Boso de Provenence II - n. 0838 en Arles, Bouches-du-Rhone, Provenza, Francia d.11 de enero de 0886
Richilde de Arles * - n. 0826 en Arles, Bouches-du-Rhone, Provenza, Francia d.0883
Willa Gisele de Vienne - n. 0858 en Arles, Bouches-Du-Rhone, Francia, el 14 de junio de 0929 en Auxerre, Borgoña, Francia
Emperador del Sacro Imperio Romano Louis (El alemán) Romano II * - n. 0804 en Alsacia-Lorena, Australia, el 31 de agosto de 0875 en Italia
Princesa Trungard D'alsace de France - n. 0840 en Alsacia, Francia, el 22 de junio de 0896 en Arles, Bouches-du-Rhone, Provenza, Francia
Engelberge de Alsacia * - b.0827
* Hay generaciones anteriores para los antepasados indicados. Vea sus páginas para más detalles (haga clic en el nombre)
Familia Detalles de la familia de Urraca con el conde de Lorena y Verdun Gozelon D'Ardennes
Familia Conde de Lorena y Verdun Gozelon D'Ardennes y Urraca di Ivrea Haga clic para ver el conde de Lorena y Verdun Gozelon D'Ardennes y Urraca di Ivrea en el árbol genealógico
Tuvieron dos hijos y tres hijas, llamados The Bearded , Gothelo , Oda , Ada y Regilinde .
Detalles personales
Masculino Conde de Lorena y Verdun Gozelon D'Ardennes
Gozelon nació en 0967 en Verdun, Mosa, Lorena, Francia . 1 Murió a los 77 años el 19 de abril de 1044 en Ardenas, Lorena, Francia . 1

Hembra Urraca di Ivrea
Urraca nació en 0964 en Ivrea, Toscana, Italia . 1
Niños
Hembra Oda de la Baja Lorena
Oda nació en 0987. 2
Masculino Duque Godfrey (El Barbudo) de Lorraine III
Godfrey, conocido como El Barbudo, nació en 0995 en Ardenas, Lorena, Francia . 1 Murió a la edad de 74 años en 1069 en Verdun, Mosa, Lorena, Francia . 1
Hembra Ada d'Ardennes
Ada nació en 1000 en Ardennes, Lorraine, Francia . 3
Hembra Regilinde de Lorraine
Regilinde nació en 1005. 4 Murió a la edad de 62 años en 1067. 4
Masculino Duque Gothelo de Baja Lorena
Gothelo nació en 1008 en Ardenas, Lorena, Francia . 3
1 http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=PED&amp;db=micha...
2 http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=PED&amp;db=grnbr...
3 http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&amp;db=micha...
4 http://wc.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=PED&amp;db=jdp-fam&amp;id...

Sorry if I was curt, Sofia. I did try the link - but there's a small problem with Google Books links: they are not stable. One day you may get right through to the information, and the next you may be taunted by a blank page.

We've got several people here insisting that 16th century redactions are "good enough" as evidence for 10th century profiles. They're not, especially when they apply a Spanish name to a Burgundian profile that had absolutely nothing to do with Spain.

Grace Neale got overwritten by a Fictitious profile, complete with fake family tree that's found all around the Web, in less than two centuries (17th to 19th).

There's a lot of Really Really Bad Genealogy on the Web - bad guesses, wishful thinking, outright fraud - and a lot of it is "supported" by "family trees" and other dubious evidence. That's why primary documentation - legal documents and/or firsthand accounts from the person's own time or shortly after it - is so essential.

This Discussion is going on to 10 pages. Please read from the beginning if you want to contribute. Poor Maven is just pointing out that we need primary sources.

Please don't post in this Discussion now UNLESS YOU HAVE FOUND A PRIMARY SOURCE from the time of Gothelo.

Both Sharon Lee Doubell C and Maven B. Helms PRO only accept primary sources. Why do we not continue with this principle, so that this discussion can come to an end? Also an end to the many repetitions and others that cause fog.
And some people "from Geni", who put a lot of energy into this, get more time available to use it elsewhere. They also need relaxation and sleep.

Hey has anyone read these few lines found and kindly posted by @Erica?
-https://www.geni.com/photo/view?album_type=photos_of_me&amp;id=6000...
-or https://media.geni.com/p13/0f/7a/ee/2e/53444851fbdd17ad/83e818a4-ed...
It concerns the motive, the period, and the reconstruction of the adjacent facts. I must say that it is a very interesting, plausible, and extremely relevant truth. And I'm afraid that in a corner maybe nobody has read it.

At this point I ask on behalf of all the others who are now also asked to be silent and silent in a corner:
Erica Howton can you please show method B of how to treat an NN profile under discussion?
(In case to cut, to destroy, to hide and to block it will always be in time:)

"This tree has been isolated from other trees on Geni: Tree is fictional"

Trouble with the citation is that it isn't specific about the parents of Pope Stephen IX, so doesn't support anything except that he was of high German nobility. (Also, it's not a primary source and does not cite any primary sources.)

We've been up, down and around this subject for nine whole pages now and are no nearer to answering the question, "who was the wife of Gozelo I?".

Well, the sources apparently did exist until the midst of the 1500c, and according to them no matter if they were first or second-hand, the wife of Gozelo was a daughter of Berengar II of Italy and his wife Willa named Junca. Buy it or not.

Noticed an error in Willas profile, it says that she died ca. 963, her husband died August 966, after that she spend her remaining life in a nunnery in Bamberg, the date of her death is not known exactly, but it should be after her husbands anyway, not before.

Please don't post in this Discussion now UNLESS YOU HAVE FOUND A PRIMARY SOURCE from the time of Gothelo.

Livio, putting a smiley face next to personal insults doesn't stop them being inappropriate.

Pido disculpas por mi desconocimiento ¿pero acaso esto no es un debate en un foro de discusión en donde para llegar a una conclusión consensuada con todos los participantes se debe llegar a un común acuerdo? Parece que hay una decisión tomada en Navidad 25 12 2019 y ejecutada el 28 12 2019 Día Mundial de los Santos Inocentes.
Y hoy 26 1 2020 la Máxima Autoridad de Geni Ordena ¡ No publique en esta discusión ahora A MENOS QUE HAYA ENCONTRADO UNA FUENTE PRIMARIA desde la época de Gothelo !
Eso se llama en mi país AUTORITARISMO – TOTALITARISMO opuesto a la DEMOCRACIA.
...PERDONEN MI IGNORANCIA Jorge Luis Borges

then I repeat it without a smiley face:
[with the utmost simplicity of the language however little I know, it in order to avoid saying something that you can hurt your very sensitive sensitivity that I absolutely don't want to hurt]
-a only single NN profile full of research and researchersit is not a tree(fictional).
not making accessible to the world tree all those researches that diligent GENI users are bringing out in the INFO of that NN is a mistake.

No one should ban someone for participating in this discussion, Sharon.

I must correct myself. "Well, the sources apparently did exist until the midst of the 1500c" was not quite correct, in "Qui comprend la Grande Bretagne, l'Irlande, la Suisse, la Savoye, la Lorraine & la Republique de Venise: 2,2" by Freres Chatelain, 1708, also have this;
Gothelon avoit épouſé Junca fille de Berenger II. Roi des Lombards, de la quelle il eur Godefroi qui ſuit , Frederic Pape ſous le nom d'Erienne X. & Gezelon décedé peu de tems aprés ſon Pere. Il eſt inhumé dans le Cloître de St. Vannes de Verdun; il regna 23. ans & mourut en 1o44. Tome II.No 72

He names the source as; (my translation of the french text, hope it is okay).
The Map of the State of Lorraine, as well as the Dissertation, and the Chronology of the Dukes, came to us from a Gentleman of His Highness. We adopted them all, as we sent them. We have only added to it, to fill in the last Chronology Sheet, the Ceremonies, which were made at Versailles.

Deberían verlo antes de tomar decisiones y destruir el trabajo de años.
https://archive.org/stream/chronologyofhist00nicorich/chronologyofh...
Full text of "The chronology of history. Containiing tables, calculations & statements ... for ascertaining the dates of historical events, and of public and private documents, from the earliest periods to the present time"

Private User De acuerdo
https://books.google.com.ar/books?id=wLp0J-RAA2YC&amp;pg=PA163&amp;...
Portada
Atlas historique, ou Nouvelle introduction à l'histoire, à la chronologie et ...

Si Juan, es el lo mismo, author Henri Abraham Chatelain1 januari 1708, Edité par Freres Chatelain Amsterdam.