Urraca d'Ivrea - Urraca doesn't exist?

Started by Sharon Doubell on Wednesday, December 25, 2019
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"As far as Cawley states, there was only one wife / mother, name not known."

"Cawley doesn’t know the mother, neither does the Trecanni Encyclopedia. Since we use Cawley as our “main source”..."

Erica Howton can we have a link here to this "Cawley" person and perhaps to his/her work cited here specifically in reference to Gothelo I of Lorraine's wife?

As for Trecanni, they don't even have Gothelo or Willa, or much else.

Thank you very much for so patiently and promptly helping me out here, Maven. :) Cawley has cited great historical resources which I believe have the potential to really improve the MedLands projects beyond the great strides it has already achieved. I will enjoy studying many of them.

I deleted the pics of texts with links that I'd earlier added to Urraca's profile, since they're no longer relevant to said profile's current 'identity', which is no longer the same person (if a person at all). I shouldn't have bothered in the first place, because her nonexistent status doesn't need any support or documentation.

NN is a perfectly fine way to indicate that the name of the profile in these relationships is unknown, if the relationships are undisputed.

But In the cases where not only her name but also her other relationships are unknown / disputed / spurious - this invites a mash up of trees if an unsuspecting Curator is brought in by a user with an agenda to merge this locked NN into a ready made profile connecting her back in to the spurious relationship. It is logical to avoid this happening, by leaving off the profile, and adding the assumptions about the relationships of the people we know on their profiles - not projecting them onto a profile which may not be the link that joins them at all.

While we know for sure that the Pope had a mother, and she was the wife of Gothelo; we don't know 1.whose child she was and 2. whether she was the same mother as the mother of his siblings. (Cawley presumes she is, but due to the absence of any evidence about it at all). That means that we need another (duplicate?) NN profile for this About data also attached to Berengario - which is even more contentious. It doesn't make sense.

I don't know that we need any NNs attached to Berengario. Per MedLands he had three daughters for sure and a probable fourth - none of them named "Urraca" or "Iunca" or anything like that, none of them married to Gozelon I.

https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/NORTHERN%20ITALY%20900-1100.htm#Be...

I agree. But if you want to put the Junca research on an actual profile - that's where it would have to go. If it went on the Gothelo NN woman - it would be merged back into Berengrio's line sooner or later.
Hence - avoid all NNs in this situation.

I am satisfied with the result and an experience richer in my comment "Urraca d’Ivrea doesn’t excist" December 2019.
I was introduced to the enormous efforts of people from the Team of Geni.
An unprecedented phenomenon that genealogieonline, geneanet and others can take as an example.

This resulted in the discussion about Iunca which I followed with interest. Is she going to live a life or not?

I soon intend to introduce "Barbe de Lebarten does not exist".

[This message has been hidden until it can be reviewed by an administrator.]

1. I had completely forgotten that I registered myself at Geni 7 years ago. Am 89 years old as already indicated.
2. I entered a family tree at MyHeritage in 2018, which I had set up for myself in Word. This has already been indicated in the discussion.
3. Cutting off profiles from other people. In November 2019 I started to approach people who had profiles with Urraca (see line 23 of this discussion). So I ended up with you through some people with profiles at Geni. I am a layman and have acted in good faith.

Sorry, I forgot to start with Ulf Martinsson

George, I thank you for an interesting question and discussion. Do you have a link to your MyHeritage tree?

It's a none valid reason to cut off any profile just because the source is not contemporary with the profiles life time in it self, if we have not valuated the second hand source.

One example I can demonstrate is a continuous source that was filled in under a period of at least 500 year. At first the source was oral, but after hand when the tradition of writing took place, it was put on paper, or leather to be correct, thus a living source under its creation, despite the fact that the first parts and the last parts has several hundreds of years in between, as a continuous chronicle.

So how would that source not be seen as contemporary? The answer is simply just because no one (as in people in general) can understand this today. This is where the trustworthiness comes in. If we do not understand, we should do nothing. If we search and find a source, no matter of if it is a second hand, or a third hand source, to be credible, we can use it if. there are no contradictions, the chronology fits, it makes sense, and other things/conditions indicates that it's right.

So without research, we will do bad things, no matter how good the intention was or looked like, and this is a fact. As stated here before by others, some people will find the clues to thoose deleted profiles, and might bring them back, so deliting profiles without clarifying why they were deleted, disconnected, will likely create more fuzz to come.

George Louis Leonardus Maria Brouwers I would say that you made an explosive entry on Geni with this discussion :D
Since you want to make others (and for me the truth it is always welcome) why don't you try to add a couple of your generations and get access to your branch?
Have you already looked at your connection point?
Most likely you already have everything ready and prepared!
For example can it be this? --> https://www.geni.com/family-tree/index/6000000084964904008 (no idea, first random result of google)
If you need some technical support I will be happy to help you (but I'm sure I won't be the only one:)

PS. I find genealogically unbearable how Junca's research on NN is going to trash.

George, thanks for bringing to people's attention that Urraca is no longer considered a historically validated person. It's this kind of accurate researching that keeps our historical tree from being a genealogical anachronism or vanity tree.
Please ignore the ugly personal insults - they come from the same people and don't engage with actual responses, so I wouldn't take it to heart or bother trying to respond.

Ulf, for every time that oral tradition turns out to be correct, there are as many or more times when it is garbled and/or wrong. Consider "Lady Grace O'Neil", a complete fiction garbled up less than two hundred years after the actual person (Grace Neale, no honorifics, definitely *not* Irish) really lived. There was even enough of a paper trail to identify her as who and what she really was. But none of that stopped the fabulators.

Sharon,

THANKS,

Sharon Doubell So, you dio not agree that the main goal for someone becoming a participant on this site, should be to build his or hers tree, instead, you agree that the main goal is to cut off profiles, including calling the ones who thinks different being insulting. I'm glad that some people here actually benefits to building up a world tree, not just aiming to destroy it.

That does not mean, that I support false or fake profiles, or wrong doings in the tree, it's just about having the right focus and goals with building up our ancestors, something anyone supporting this site should have. George is not the first, nor the last one adding just one profile, their own, starting to demand changes, that behavior is not something to support. If the majority acted as him, we wouldn't have a world tree at all.
This is definitively not an ugly personal insult, it's a fact.

Ulf's argument would have more weight if he didn't have a long, long track record of arguing for the inclusion of questionable if not outright fictitious profiles based on Icelandic sagas and such.

Ulf, the number of profiles George has added to Geni does not alter any of the facts regarding the profile under discussion. Stop.

https://books.google.com/books?id=-mq7ctwMNdoC&pg=PA18&lpg=...

"Papal Genealogy, The Families and Descendants of the Popes." by George L. Williams (Aug. 11, 2004)

"primarily of interest for its wealth of genealogical detail"

Mr. Williams also authored "Fascist Thought and Totalitarianism in Italy's Secondary Schools: Theory and Practice, 1923-1943"

In his genealogy chart Table II, POPES FROM IMPERIAL HOUSES, the author clearly has JUNCA D'IVREA properly represented as the wife of GOZELO I of LORRAINE and the daughter of WILLA and BERENGAR II (d. 966) and the mother of POPE STEPHEN IX (1057-58).

https://www.amazon.com/George-L-Williams/e/B001KI4IEK/ref=dp_byline...

Is that enough for you now?

Private User Ulf's argument would have more weight if he didn't have a long, long track record of arguing for the inclusion of questionable if not outright fictitious profiles based on Icelandic sagas and such
Gisla d'Ivrea
Mujer
Nacimiento: hacia 940
Fallecimiento: después de 965
Agregado por: Maven B. Helms el 9 de septiembre de 2015
Gestionado por:Maven B. Helms
Said to have married Ramboldo II da Treviso; but also said to have become a nun before 965
1 Solo gestor Faltan fuentes
Haz lo que yo digo no lo que yo hago

wife of Gothelo “the Great”
Mujer
Nacimiento: hacia 965
Fallecimiento: hacia 1007 (33-51)
France
Agregado por: Steven Avery Kelley el 14 de febrero de 2008
Gestionado por:Juan Carlos y 30 otros
31 Gestores infinidad de fuentes .
Notubo oportunidad (28 de Diciembre Día Internacional de los Santos Inocentes)

http://www.bisabuelos.com/med/borgona_ivrea.html#XI
R5]ruta genealógica: Casa de Borgoña-Ivrea
5] Urraca de Lombardía-Ivrea
CAROLINGIOS (Otros datos)
* Bibliografía:
+ Arnulfingos o Pipinidas: ver cuadro genealógico en Historia Universal, EUNSA, tomo IV, p. 29.
+ Descendencia de Carlos Martel: ver cuadro genealógico en Historia Universal, EUNSA, tomo IV, p. 51.
+ Descendencia de Carlomagno: ver cuadro genealógico en Historia Universal, EUNSA, tomo IV, p. 101.
+ Descendencia de Carlos, "el Calvo": ver cuadro genealógico en Historia Universal, EUNSA, tomo IV, p. 157.

Showing 181-210 of 287 posts

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