Urraca d'Ivrea - Urraca doesn't exist?

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Catholic_Encyclopedia_(1913)/Pope_St...

There’s a footnote here turned up by google. A snippet:

https://books.google.com/books?id=aHrzcAtm48IC&lpg=PT278&ot...

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Tuscan Countess: The Life and Extraordinary Times of Matilda of Canossa

Front Cover
Michele K. Spike
Abrams, Feb 1, 2012

The footnote cites the New Advent Dictionary and reads:

25 Godfrey and his brother, Frederick, were threats to German legitimacy. Their mother, Junca, was the daughter of Berengar ll, the Lombard king, whom Conrad ll defeated for control of Italy.

(I’ll try and find the Catholic Encyclopedia link)

Thank you Erica Howton

Liber Pontificalis, II, 278, ed. DUCHESNE (Paris, 1892); De ortu et obitu just. cænob. Cas., n. 58, ap. MAI, Script. Vet., VI, 278; P.L., CXLIII, U. ROBERT has put together all that is known of Stephen X in his Hist. du P. Etienne X (Brussels, 1892); MANN, Lives of the Popes in the Middle Ages, VI (London, 1910); 207 sq.

About this page

APA citation. Mann, H. (1912). Pope Stephen (IX) X. In The Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company. Retrieved January 17, 2020 from New Advent: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14290c.htm

nice shot for Catholic_Encyclopedia writed by:
Horace Kinder Mann (1859-1928) UK
https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/1315014.Horace_K_Mann:

Priest, educator, and historian of the medieval papacy. Mann devoted his intellectual activity to the medieval papacy and became the outstanding English historian in this field in the 20th century...

His major work is the Lives of the Popes in the (Early) Middle Ages (18 v. in 19, London 1902–32), treating the popes from Gregory I through Benedict XI; the last four volumes were issued posthumously. Although still valuable, the Lives has been largely superseded by later research. Mann wrote also an independent biography of Nicholas Breakspear (HadrianIV) A.D. 1154–1159 (London 1914), Tombs and Portraits of the Popes of the Middle Ages (London 1929), articles for the Catholic Encyclopedia, and numerous essays and reviews.

Also need to find this

Hist. du P. Etienne X (Brussels, 1892)

It seems like the name Urraca could derive from Junca? (no idea)

In French, no mother listed:

Le Grand Dictionnaire Historique Ou Le Mélange Curieux De L'Histoire Sacrée Et Profane: Qui Contient ... L'Histoire Fabuleuse Des Dieux & des Héros de l'Antiquité Payenne, ... : Le tout enrichi de Remarques, de disserations et de Recherches curieuses, ... Page 797

https://books.google.com/books?id=EatPAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA796&lpg...

coincidentally both 2 pages Treccani (ita) are by https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michel_Parisse (FR)

> It seems like the name Urraca could derive from Junca? (no idea)

By way of a Telephone Game, maybe (garble garble garble, conducted across multiple languages besides).

But the point, really, is that there is *no* contemporary or even near-contemporary documentation for Gozelo's wife whatsoever - not her name, not her parents, not anything.

So do we leave her as "Nn", without parents? (Cawley would - Cawley *did*)

Or do we follow a centuries-later Wild Mass Guess, and if so whose?

Private User Cuál es la prisa? What is the rush?

Ada de Lorraine

Mutter: Urracca von Italien (von Ober-und-Niederlothringen) ‎(1) • Urracca von Lothringen (geb. von Italien) ‎(1) Vater: Herzog Gozelo ""der Grosse "" von Ober-und-Niederlothringen I ‎(1) • Gozelo I von Lothringen ‎(1) Schwester: Regelinde ‎(1) Bruder: Friedrich ‎(1) Bruder: Gottfried ‎(1) Bruder: Gozelo ‎(1) Ehemann: Graf von Leuven en Brussel Lambert II van Leuven II Ehemann: LAMBERT II. ‎(1) • Lambert II (Balderik) ‎(1) • Lambert II. Balderik ‎(1) Tochter: Adela von Weimar Orlamünde (born van Leuven) Tochter: Adela ‎(3) Tochter: Landrade ‎(1) Tochter: Gerberge ‎(1) Sohn: Hendrik II ‎(2) • Henry II le ceinturé deBrabant ‎(1) Sohn: Raginer ‎(1) Sohn: Reinier ‎(1) Sohn: John Leuven ‎(1)
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Lorraine-164
Maud de Leuven formerly Lorraine aka de Lorraine
Born about 0990 in Lorraine, Moselle, Francemap
ANCESTORS ancestors
Daughter of Gozelo (Verdun) de Verdun and Urracca (Ivrea) d'Ivrea
Sister of Regilinde (Lorraine) de Lorraine, Uda (Lorraine) de Lotharingia, Godfrey (Basse-Lotharingie) Lorraine [half] and Gothelo (Duke of Lower Lorraine) Lorraine [half]
Wife of Henri (Louvain) de Louvain — married [date unknown] [location unknown]

https://www.genealogieonline.nl/royal-house-of-layton-of-stuart-and...

Gothelo I Duke Of Lorraine
967-1044 Urraca d'Ivrea
965-1007
Maud Of Lorraine
990-????
Henry I Count Of Louvaine
????-1038

I think we need to see what Horace Kinder Mann had to say and how. He’s a respected historian. So far I haven’t found the correct volume of Lives of the Pope. And I find it curious that soc.gen.med only busted the spurious mother but didn’t address other citations.

Cawley doesn’t know the mother, neither does the Trecanni Encyclopedia. Since we use Cawley as our “main source”, presenting her as NN on Geni seems most consistent with our stylings. But I would want to link within profile to the (suggested) parents and ensure the alternate names found are noted as AKAs, particularly since they have turned up on other sites.

Beware. Juan Carlos tries to sow doubt by involving Urraca again. "What is the rush .." He has been called to order several times, tapped on his fingers. Rancor. Comes with questionable sites. Urraca d’Ivrea doesn’t excist is widely supported.

https://archive.org/details/livesofpopesinea06mannuoft/page/208

Horace Kinder Mann's biography of Pope Stephen IX begins on p. 207 of Vol. 6, Erica Howton and his reference to Junca is on p. 208.

George dice:
Beware. Juan Carlos tries to sow doubt by involving Urraca again. "What is the rush .." He has been called to order several times, tapped on his fingers. Rancor. Comes with questionable sites.
Geni dice: Ada de Lorraine

Mutter: Urracca von Italien (von Ober-und-Niederlothringen) ‎(1) • Urracca von Lothringen (geb. von Italien) ‎(1) Vater: Herzog Gozelo ""der Grosse "" von Ober-und-Niederlothringen I ‎(1) • Gozelo I von Lothringen ‎(1) Schwester: Regelinde ‎(1) Bruder: Friedrich ‎(1) Bruder: Gottfried ‎(1) Bruder: Gozelo ‎(1) Ehemann: Graf von Leuven en Brussel Lambert II van Leuven II Ehemann: LAMBERT II. ‎(1) • Lambert II (Balderik) ‎(1) • Lambert II. Balderik ‎(1) Tochter: Adela von Weimar Orlamünde (born van Leuven) Tochter: Adela ‎(3) Tochter: Landrade ‎(1) Tochter: Gerberge ‎(1) Sohn: Hendrik II ‎(2) • Henry II le ceinturé deBrabant ‎(1) Sohn: Raginer ‎(1) Sohn: Reinier ‎(1) Sohn: John Leuven ‎(1)

Thank you Debra. He gives his modern sources: U Roberts, Bruxelles, 1876 & 1892. A few letters surviving from his time.

So now we know the modern study. I suspect it wont be any more illuminating on confirming his mother's origins but worth finding. Should also look for sibling origin studies.

Though it wasn't directed to me I will answer, "what is the rush".

There is no rush, at this point his mother's profile should be NN, with notes in the profile About, and then if some time in the future actual evidence is located then we can change the NN to a name. No rush at all to put an unsupported name in there.

We don't know who his mother is. The Discussion reference and notes go on his profile until we find what PRIMARY SOURCES these tertiary sources (with a vested interest in him) were using 500 years later to make claims to bolster his heritage.

This rush to subvert good genealogical and historical practice is what devalues our Medieval Tree into vanity genealogy.

THIS:
Maven B. Helms PRO
Yesterday at 11:47 PM

> It seems like the name Urraca could derive from Junca? (no idea)

By way of a Telephone Game, maybe (garble garble garble, conducted across multiple languages besides).

But the point, really, is that there is *no* contemporary or even near-contemporary documentation for Gozelo's wife whatsoever - not her name, not her parents, not anything.

So do we leave her as "Nn", without parents? (Cawley would - Cawley *did*)

Or do we follow a centuries-later Wild Mass Guess, and if so whose?

https://www.geni.com/discussions/205730?msg=1353115

Gozelo, count of Montaigu

Gozelo, count of Montaigu and Behogne is your 29th great grandfather.

to anyone who has asked for the cancellation of this "lol line" --> Godfrey Duke of Lorraine

PLZ cut it from the brother Gozelo, count of Montaigu (documented)
and from the mother --> wife of Gothelo “the Great” (236 follower) that it would indeed be a good idea to CUT she off & reattach her pope's mother, with all the notes, descriptions of the conflicts we are detecting.

Very weird indeed. I'm the one who cut Godfrey off from the now N.N. mother -- that's the extent of my involvement; it's part of a duplicate line that goes on down into the Boleyns, is why I came across it.

So I detached, and isolated. But somehow it looks like it got reattached, which should have been impossible, and it remained "isolated," but the N.N. profile and the rest of her tree did not.

Must be a bug.

sorta scary bug, really.

I'm simply detaching Godfrey, who is a duplicate of somebody who is a Master Profile elsewhere and has nothing to do with all this, and reisolating his duplicate line.

Weird.

Regarding: Gozelo, count of Montaigu . See https://www.geni.com/discussions/205730?msg=1353042 These profiles have nothing to do with the Uracca /NN profile that Ulf undeleted - apparantly without checking any of her other spurious relationships, as I'd pointed out he would need to.

Sharon Lee Doubell C
28/12/2019 at 10:36 PM

If you want to undelete her, Private User , you need to check on the sources for the relationships that go with her profile. They're likely to be made up too.

Daughter of Berengar II of Ivrea, king of Italy and Willa
Mother of Godfrey Duke of Lorraine; Ada de Lorraine; Regilinde of Lorraine and Gozelo, count of Montaigu and Behogne
Sister of Adalbert II, king of Italy and Rozala d'Italie, reine consort de France
Half sister of Adalbert II, king of Italy; Guido, marchese d'Ivrea; Gisla d'Ivrea; Conrad of Ivrea, Conon; Gilberga d'Ivrea; Rozala d'Italie, reine consort de France and Otto or William

This is why we deleted her profile and didn't use NN.
The profile was a nexus for spurious profiles - functioning to conveniently join numbers of unconnected lines.

An extensive About on her NN profile still has to decide who it's referencing:
1.The mother of the Pope;
2. the wife of Gonzelo
3. The daughter of Berengar.

Leaving this profile as the catch all for those speculations invites the merge mash up of two, even 3, different trees that we have no proof were linked.

-NN is wife of Godzelo & mother of the Pope. [this is a fact]
-Some good historians (so far we have found 1 old, and one contemporary) identify her as a Berengar's daughter. (and they call she Junca but without presenting primary evidence yet...) [and with all the doubts of Catholic subjection that you want to raise: a trace of this must be left in the info of NN]

I realize this is, in some ways, an issue of presentation style. So if I may, as a member - I find a tree without a NN wife / mother highly confusing to read, particularly when there are notes and references about the person.

When I see a profile of a man, I want to know about the man - not his wife. And vice versa. I don’t want to see the discussion about his wife’s origins on his profile, particularly; a simple “unknown” text reference in his family discussion is enough. Then I flip over to her profile and I can see whether this has actually been researched or not.

My cup of tea, anyway.

I handle uncertain / disputed parents within the wife / mother profile with a section, disputed origins. As far as Cawley states, there was only one wife / mother, name not known.

Willa of Tuscany
Ada de Lorraine
Gozelo, count of Montaigu
Frederick of Lorraine, pope Stephen IX
Gonzelon II, duc de Basse-Lorraine
wife of Gothelo “the Great”

https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%ADa_de_los_Santos_Inocentes

<privado> Doubell was removed as a manager of N.N. by Sharon Lee Doubell.
29 de dic de 2019 a las 4:28 AM
N.N. fue desconectado de su padre Berengar II of Ivrea, king of Italy por Sharon Lee Doubell.
29 de dic de 2019 a las 4:10 AM
N.N. fue desconectado de su madre Willa por Sharon Lee Doubell.
29 de dic de 2019 a las 4:10 AM
N.N. fue desconectado de su padre Berengar II of Ivrea, king of Italy por Sharon Lee Doubell.
29 de dic de 2019 a las 4:10 AM
N.N. fue desconectado de su madre Willa por Sharon Lee Doubell.
29 de dic de 2019 a las 4:10 AM
N.N. fue desconectado de su madre Willa por Sharon Lee Doubell.
29 de dic de 2019 a las 4:10 AM
N.N. fue desconectado de su padre Berengar II of Ivrea, king of Italy por Sharon Lee Doubell.
29 de dic de 2019 a las 4:10 AM
N.N. fue desconectado de su madre Willa por Sharon Lee Doubell.
29 de dic de 2019 a las 4:10 AM
Los padres de Adalbert II, king of Italy fueron cambiados a Berengar II of Ivrea, king of Italy y Willa por Sharon Lee Doubell.
29 de dic de 2019 a las 3:51 AM
Ada de Lorraine fue desconectado de su madre N.N. por Sharon Lee Doubell.
29 de dic de 2019 a las 3:14 AM
Los padres de Regilinde of Lorraine fue cambiado a Gothelo I "the Great", duke of Lorraine por Sharon Lee Doubell.
29 de dic de 2019 a las 3:10 AM
Los padres de Rozala d'Italie, reine consort de France fueron cambiados a Berengar II of Ivrea, king of Italy y Willa por Livio Scremin.
28 de dic de 2019 a las 10:36 PM
El perfil de N.N. fue actualizado por Ulf Martinsson. acerca de mí
28 de dic de 2019 a las 6:15 PM · ver
El perfil de Urraca d'Ivrea fue actualizado por Ulf Martinsson. nacimiento, nombre para mostrar y nombre
28 de dic de 2019 a las 6:15 PM · ver
El perfil de Urraca d'Ivrea fue actualizado por Ulf Martinsson. nombre y apellido de nacimiento
28 de dic de 2019 a las 6:14 PM · ver
El perfil de Urraca d'Ivrea fue actualizado por Ulf Martinsson. nombre para mostrar, nombre y apellido de nacimiento
28 de dic de 2019 a las 6:14 PM · ver

Urraca d'Ivrea was undeleted by Ulf Martinsson.
28 de dic de 2019 a las 6:13 PM
Urraca d'Ivrea fue eliminado por Sharon Lee Doubell.
28 de dic de 2019 a las 5:39 PM · ver
El perfil de Urraca d'Ivrea fue actualizado por Sharon Lee Doubell. maestro
28 de dic de 2019 a las 5:39 PM · ver
El perfil de Urraca d'Ivrea fue actualizado por Sharon Lee Doubell. maestro
28 de dic de 2019 a las 5:39 PM · ver
Urraca d'Ivrea was disconnected from her husband Gothelo I "the Great", duke of Lorraine and children Maud de Lorraine, Ada de Lorraine, Godfrey III, the Bearded, duke of Lorraine, Gonzelon II, duc de Basse-Lorraine y 1 otro by Sharon Lee Doubell.
28 de dic de 2019 a las 5:38 PM
Urraca d'Ivrea fue desconectado de sus padres Berengar II of Ivrea, king of Italy y Willa y sus hermanos Adalbert II, king of Italy, Guido, marchese d'Ivrea, Gisla d'Ivrea y Conrad of Ivrea, Conon por Sharon Lee Doubell.
28 de dic de 2019 a las 5:38 PM
El perfil de Urraca d'Ivrea fue actualizado por Livio Scremin. ID de foto
28 de dic de 2019 a las 1:50 PM · ver
El perfil de Urraca d'Ivrea fue actualizado por Livio Scremin. ID de foto
28 de dic de 2019 a las 1:50 PM · ver
El perfil de Urraca d'Ivrea fue actualizado por Livio Scremin. ID de foto
25 de dic de 2019 a las 2:35 PM · ver

El perfil de Urraca d'Ivrea fue actualizado por Livio Scremin. acerca de mí
25 de dic de 2019 a las 2:35 PM · ver
El perfil de Urraca d'Ivrea fue actualizado por Everard van Dijk. acerca de mí
13 de dic de 2019 a las 6:28 PM · ver