Emma de Port - Emma Lady of Semer and Skarburgh "aka Emma de la Port" was Saxon.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elisabeth_van_Houts

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judith_Green_(historian)

This is just a nice preview of Ms. Green's book, "The Aristocracy of Norman England".

http://assets.cambridge.org/97805213/35096/sample/9780521335096ws.pdf

Nice intro, thank you.

https://books.google.com/books?id=JBAXAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA46&lpg=...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Barrington_de_Fonblanque

British historian, Edward Barrington de Fonblanque's "Annals of the Percy Family" clearly identifies Emma de Port as a Saxon lady, not Norman. And having read the Abbey record (which he also cited in Vol. 1 of the book), I agree with him. There is ample evidence of her being Saxon, and none to prove she was a daughter of Hugh de Port.

However, my mind remains open and I continue to research this topic. I've ordered a copy of Judith Green's "The Aristocracy of Norman England" in which she extensively treated the subject of marriage and inheritance. Looking forward to seeing what she had to say about it.

Meanwhile, de Fonblanque had this to say about Emma de Port:

"His marriage with Emma de Port, a SAXON lady"

"William Als Gernons, the Norman who made himself a home in the wilds of bleak Yorkshire, married 'for conscience' sake' the SAXON maiden whose lands he had
conquered"

"At the period of the Conquest, and indeed down to Normans and SAXONS; and by a perfectly natural process men called themselves after their birthplaces or family properties, their professions, trades, or handicrafts, and not unfrequently by names indicative of some personal peculiarity."

"William de Percy married a SAXON lady of rank, but there are no records to establish her parentage. She is generally described as Emma de Port, the Norman surname having probably been given to her by the invaders in right of her ownership of Semer near Scarborough, then an important seaport."

"A graceful legend reports her to have been a daughter of Gospatrick, Earl of Northumberland,"

"...we must fall back upon this more prosaic version of Percy's marriage in an ancient MS. : 'Emma of the Porte .... was LADY OF SEMER besides SKARBURGH AFORE the Conquest, and of other lands, William Conqueror gave to Syr William Percye for his good service ; and he weddid hyr that was VERY heir to them in discharging of his conscience.'"

"We may thus infer that Percy having received a grant of the lands of which the SAXON maiden had been either the owner or the heiress, he compensated her for the loss of her possessions by making her his wife."

"Ex Registro Monasterii de Whitbye, Harl. MSS. No. 692 (26), fol. 235, from which extracts are published in the Antiquarian Repertory, vol. iv. p. 4"

Note however, that Emma is not ruled out as a daughter of Gospatric, Earl of Northumbria (who happened to be the Earl of the region during the time of the Conquest and the Harrying of the North).

"Hugh Lupus [Earl of Chester, the Conqueror's nephew], accordingly disposed of his lands in the North to his friend and companion in arms, William de Percy (who had already obtained considerable grants from the King), first as would appear at a quit rent, but, not long after, absolutely on the same terms as he had held them from the Crown."

"The GRANT comprised the Town and PORT of WHITBY with the surrounding lands. 'Conquestor dedit pnedicto Hugoni villam de Whittebye cum omnibus suis membris ; et idem Hugo dedit praedicto Willielmo de Percy omnia pradicta terras et tenementa, sibi et haeredibus suis, ita liberi et quiete sicut pradictus Hugo ea habuit ex dono Regis."—Ex Registro Cartarum Abbatia de Whitbye, Monast. Angl. p. 409.'"

Note that Whitby is a PORT, and that Emma DE PORT donated her estates to Whitby Abbey.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitby

"A long series of domestic alliances had already served to allay the resentment and jealousy of the native population towards their conquerors ; and the renunciation of
alien sympathies and interests, with the acknowledgment of a common nationality, now cemented the union between Norman and Saxon, and did much to obliterate the harsher lines of demarcation which had hitherto existed between the dominant and the subject race."
______________________________________

By the way, "Emma is an Old Germanic name, originating as a hypocoristic form of names containing the first element ermin "whole, universal," such as Ermintrude, Ermingard and Erminhilt. Emma, and variants Imma and Ymma, quickly established themselves as given names in their own right by the tenth century.

"Usage: An early bearer of the name from the 7th century is Emma of Austrasia (d. 642), daughter of Theudebert II and wife of the Anglo-SAXON king Eadbald of Kent."

https://www.britishbabynames.com/blog/2016/05/emma.html

https://digital.nls.uk/histories-of-scottish-families/archive/95664...

"Stemmata Robertson et Durdin" p.265 states that Emma de Port, wife of William de Percy was "a SAXON lady and heiress."

*** PRIMARY *** documentation ONLY please!

If you cannot prove THROUGH PRIMARY DOCUMENTATION, and NOT through the natterings and gossipings of historians and romancers many generations removed from the scene, then you can't claim that she was one.

Wives from the Continent DO NOT prove that Saxons gave their children Continental names.

If Emma were from Whitby, she would be Emma of Whitby.

OF Whitby, not DE.

"De" IS FRENCH.

I think you have blown enough smoke about this subject.

The Whitby Abbey and other official records cited by de Fonblanque are indeed primary source documents.

De Fonblanque's multi-volume tome devoted exclusively to the history and genealogy of the de Percy family is a masterpiece of scholarship.

And several of his peers, all respectable British historians, agree with him about the identity of Emma the Saxon lady. It is repeated in "Stemmata Robertson et Durdin".

Bishop Thomas Percy, a member of the family who lived much later also described her as such in his ballad, "The Hermit of Warkworth". He was obviously aware of his family history, and was himself an English historian.

Roger Dodsworth also created a pedigree for the de Percys of which it is said that he provided multiple sources for each and every link in the chain. I'm currently searching for a copy of that one, just out of curiosity.

Meanwhiile, I've seen absolutely NOTHING in the way of OFFICIAL RECORDS or CREDIBLE (i.e. DOCUMENTED) histories to indicate that Emma, Lady of Semer and Skarburgh, wife of William de Percy, donor of extremely valuable real estate to Whitby Abbey (located in the Port town of Whitby) -- was a daughter of Hugh de Port.

https://books.google.com/books?id=9NYKAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA690&lpg...

She is repeatedly referred to in early records by real, professional historians as

Emma OF the PORT, Lady of SEYMER.

Hugh de Port is NEVER mentioned in any of these records.

No official records of any kind exist, to even suggest that Hugh de Port had a daughter named Emma. If they existed, I'd have seen them by now.

So far the only actual, credible, from her own time document is the charter in which her name is repeatedly given as Emma DE PORT - and she authenticated it herself.

No "Of The" Port" - that's a later, MUCH later MIStranslation of a name that *did not need to be translated*.

The document you keep touting is from MUCH MUCH MUCH later than Emma's own time - it's a compiled pedigree of the Percies, probably dating from temp. Henry VII (1485-1509), possibly early Henry VIII - and the annotations are from the time of publication (1881).

As "proof" of anything regarding Emma de Port's ethnicity or origin - it's utterly useless.

Please pay attention to footnote 1, which is a *disclaimer* of sorts. "It will be alike unnecessary and tedious to note the various discrepancies between historical facts and its statements, and consequently only little in the way of annotation is attempted." That's a flat-out statement that the document contains errors.

What we have is a lady with a completely French name, ending in a locative (Normans did not use surnames, they used locatives, i.e. the place they were from) which matches exactly to the locative for another Norman family from the same region as the Percies. That's an excellent reason for believing she belonged to that family. And since Hugh de Port WAS involved in the land transfer to William de Percy, that implies a close family connection - if not a daughter, then a niece by way of an unrecorded brother. "Daughter" is simpler and more likely, though.

We did a good job of updating and analyzing the early de Port tree, and contemporary “authorities” such as The Complete Peerage place Emma de Port, wife of William de Perci, as of Hugh’s family.

I also suspect Fonblanque wouldn’t have argued with that. I read him as repeating a story and making it clear it’s based on one line, and footnoting the de Port Reference.

There multiple charter references to Emma de Port, including one naming her as Emma de Percy.

Hugh de Port, Domesday lord of Basing

Orence de Port St. John, of Basing

Erica Howton I think we did an awesome job with the early de port tree. :)

https://books.google.com/books?id=TdMNAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA28&lpg=...

p.28

"Mr. Lionel Charlton, 1722-1788, the first historian of Whitby" was also the math teacher at Whitby. "Mr. Charlton was a man of the strictest integrity and honour."

https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/742600

https://books.googleusercontent.com/books/content?req=AKW5Qads3_dy9...

https://books.google.com/books?id=25dbAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontco...

"The History of Whitby, and of Whitby Abbey", by Lionel Charlton (1779)

p.50

"In the year 1069, the Danes having landed in England, Waltheof, GOSPATRIC, and several other of the exiled Lords, joined them near York, with a great number of armed men. After burning York Minster, with a choice library of books belonging thereto, and a great part of the city, they took the same by assault, and put the Norman garrison there to the sword.

"King William hasting down to the northward with an army, gave the confederates
battle, whom he routed; and afterwards ravaging the whole country, retook the city of York by siege, when he very severely punished, not only the rebellious officers and soldiers, but also the citizens:

"Only he received into his special favour the Governor Waltheof, on account of his singular valour; and, at the intercession of WILLIAM DE PERCY, was pleased also to pardon EARL GOSPATRIC, (whose daughter EMMA that nobleman had just taken to wife)

"and with great liberality again restored him a considerable part of his former estate.

"This Lady EMMA, about the time of her marriage, took the name of Emma de Port, which I conceive was from her being Lady or MISTRESS OF THE PORT OF WHITBY, near which she then lived."

p.70, from the Memorial at Whitby Abbey:

"By the gift of Emma de Port, one dwelling house in Usegate; and two carucates of land, the one in Ysleham, and the other in Sneiles Welle."

The latter estates were in another county, where Hugh de Port received them (somehow) in 1086, and in "d. c. 1100" gave them to "William de Percy".

Both William de Percy, Sr. (who was commonly known as "Aux Gernons" or "Algernon") AND Hugh de Port -- died in 1096. So the math is off a bit, to say the least.

https://www.geni.com/discussions/205326?msg=1350417

https://www.geni.com/discussions/205326?msg=1350441

Emma de Percy, of Acaster

Sir Hugo de Malebisse

Sir Hugh de Malebisse

Hugh de Port, Domesday lord of Basing

Orence de Port St. John, of Basing

Debra, PLEASE stop it. You're fighting a one-person losing battle.

What you don't realize is that until relatively recently (post-Victorian era for the most part), "historians" did not and could not distinguish between what actually happened and what "tradition said" happened. And "tradition", we now know, can very often be very wrong.

You'll notice that the Emma de Percy who married Sir Hugo de Malebisse *has no parents*, and they both have dates that mean they were from the *post*-Conquest generation. Different Emma, different husband, different everything.

We get everything here from serious genealogical experts (too few of them) to clueless newbies who swallow whole and regurgitate whatever they find on the Web, good, bad or indifferent (way too many of them, and way too much bad information).

"Aux Grenons" is Norman-French for "With Whiskers" (and it *did* eventually become the given name "Algernon", but that was later). All it means is that de Percy grew a beard, which wasn't common among Normans at that time. The Latin equivalent, incidentally, is "cum barba", and you'll see earlier (and even some contemporary) men with that nickname.

There was a Hubert de Port in the Conquest generation, and his holdings in Domesday are listed right after those of the Conquest-generation Hugh de Port. They were almost certainly related, and are commonly thought to have been brothers. (And it's SUCH a VERY common mistake to mix up mothers and wives when there are so few reliable records of either - this is found over and over and over again throughout early genealogy and sometimes well into the detailed-record-keeping era....)

There is NO DOCUMENTATION WHATSOBLOODYEVER for the pretty fable that our Emma de Port "was" the "daughter" of Gospatric Earl of Northumbria. Not a bit, not a shred. The idea that she was a Saxon landholder seems to have developed circa the fifteenth century (romanticizing the past was already a Very Big Thing in the fifteenth century, vizt. Malory), and "Gospatric" seems to have been added in stages after that. First it was the anomalous "Gospatric" who managed to keep half his Yorkshire holdings post-Conquest - he was NOT the Earl of Northumbria, because the latter is reliably reported to have died circa 1075 in Scotland, and Gospatric of Yorkshire was still alive and kicking circa 1086. Then of course as the facts got even more blurred by time and fading memories, the two Gospatrics inevitably got mash-merged.

"The real story isn't in accounts, it's in account books" - a truism from Josephine Tey's "The Daughter of Time" (a seminal pro-Richard-III work of detective fiction). Who was whom and where and when and doing what is consistently found more accurately in charters and other land records than in historical accounts, no matter how detailed.

Sometimes we have no choice but to sift and compare the accounts and try to pick out the most likely versions. But that is NOT THE CASE with the period 1066-1086. There are actual land records of who held what territory before 1066, who had it in 1086, who gave what territory to whom (or to which entity - most commonly churches and abbeys), who witnessed the transaction, etc. It's really quite a well-documented period, for the Middle Ages.

I find british-history.ac.uk to be useful:

"Before 1095 Hugh de Port gave Snailwell to his daughter Emma, wife of William de Percy. (fn. 11)"

https://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/cambs/vol10/pp479-482

"At the time of the Domesday Survey William de Perci was holding this land in right of his wife, (fn. 18) Emma de Port, (fn. 19) who probably obtained it by grant of Hugh de Port. (fn. 20)"

https://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/hants/vol3/pp238-244

Of course, there is another possibility - I've found various cases where the titles to a land/title move to a cousin who then change their family name to that of the line they inherited from.

The Victoria County Histories (which british-history draws very heavily from, including both those references) are usually pretty good for accuracy and almost always sourced from primary documentation.

When we started the Geni cleanup we found a mashed up profile called “Gospatric Hughes de Port” as Emma’s father. :(. I guess someone’s attempt to reconcile the different stories.

Even I could recognize that as a mythological being. :):)

Ah, here he is again!

Hughes Gospatric de Port

The time line for this tree is at odds with the now MP tree, or perhaps easier to isolate? Maybe we can absorb it in correctly: the MP tree is basically Horace Round based, and as I understand it, TCP & Cawley’s Medlands have added detail to his work but not changed it substantially.

Looks like this Emma de Percy, of Acaster is controversially a daughter of Sir William de Percy, 3rd Baron Percy

And has the wrong husband:

http://cybergata.com/roots/22025.htm

Emma married William de Malebiche, son of Hugh de Malebiche and Unknown, in England 1407.,1411 (William de Malebiche died in 1176 in Yorkshire, England 1407.)

On Hughes Gospatric de Port - I suppose the first step is to check the sources. It has the whiff of something that should just be deleted, along with his son Hubert. I've seen no evidence that they exist. Then the rest could be merged in. I think those "ancestors" should be dealt with first or we could end up merging spurious information in.

It also looks like there is confusion the between descendants Hugh and Hubert de Port, I, of Mapledurwell

https://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/hants/vol4/pp149-152#h3-0002

Not surprisingly Wikipedia gives Adam de Port's father as either Hugh or Hubert.

I think where there is ambiguity or differing theories it is not unreasonable to add this in the text with links to the relevant profiles (as is done, for example, with Hubert)).

Gospatric please compile references & comments in this possibly fictional profile. I’m thinking it best to keep one up on Geni so he doesn’t reappear.

Do we have any references for Ermengarde Gastinois as mother of Hawise, Baroness of Basing ?

Emma de Percy had an interesting son:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/loganalogy.com/2019/12/01/malebysse-to...

“By the way, Richard, whom I mentioned before, was an interesting, cruel fellow. He was a justiciar, he held Acaster in 1176, and was forester for Yorkshire (Madox, i. 316). But, then things changed for dear ‘ole Richard.

He was one of the leaders in the savage attack on and massacre of the Jews at York in 1190 (Will. Newburgh, i. 321, Rolls Ser.) As a punishment for his share in this outrage his lands were seized by the king. Malebysse appears to have been a supporter of Earl John, and in consequence he was one of those who were excommunicated by William de Longchamp in December 1191 (Hoveden, iii. 153). In 1193 he paid a fine of twenty marks for the recovery of his lands till the king’s return, and eventually paid six hundred marks for full restoration (Madox, Hist. of Exchequer, i. 473, 483).

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Malebysse,_Richard_(DNB00)_

Maven, calm down. Good can come from questioning the status quo, from rocking the boat occasionally -- assuming you have the right attitude.

In the above post, Erica's speaking of the 'other' "Emma de Port": Emma de Percy, of Acaster

Richard de Malebisse

Percy, not Port. To make matters worse, they both start with a P. :D