Emma de Port - Emma Lady of Semer and Skarburgh "aka Emma de la Port" was Saxon.

This is the Percy history author, by the way.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Barrington_de_Fonblanque

I've never mentioned or heard of Arnald de Percy of Kildale, and can't answer your question about him.

However, you only verified that William de Percy received Seamer and Scarbrough from Hugh, Earl of Chester (who we know obtained it directly from William the Conqueror). I don't see the relevance of repeating what has already been said again and again. We already know that William de Percy's wife was named Emma "de Port" and that they had a son named Alan.

Again you repeated what I already provided in my OP, and which is the best evidence that Emma was a Saxon: "Emma of the Porte .... was Lady of Semer besides Skarburgh afore the Conquest, and of other lands, William Conqueror gave to Syr William Percye for his good service; and he weddid hyr that was very heir to them in discharging of his conscience."

You've provided nothing in the way of primary sources (i.e legal documents or contemporaneous histories and/or accounts) that connects Wm. de Percy's wife or her lands of Seamer and Scarbrough specifically/directly to Hugh de Port.

You've only verified the lands belonged originally to Hugh, Earl of Chester (which by now should be common knowledge). I've seen plenty of evidence for her being a Saxon, but nothing so far that proves she was a Norman by blood.

https://translate.google.com/#view=home&op=translate&sl=la&...

https://www.library.unsw.edu.au/study/information-resources/primary...

I'm not disputing Fonblanque, the 19th century historian.

Fonblanque is careful to say, “generally described as Emma de Port” and footnotes Hugh de Port. Nor does he claim the Saxon lady as Mother of William’s children.

https://archive.org/stream/annalshouseperc00fonbgoog#page/n53/mode/...+

So all you have, really, is your "gut feeling", based on *old romances*, that Emma de Port "must" have been a Saxon.

I looked up Seamer in opendomesday.org. There are two listings, one for the place near Scarborough, which was held pre-Conquest by Karli (son of Karli) (i.e. Karli Karlisson), who seems to have been still alive and holding onto a small remnant of his patrimony in 1086 - see listing for Karli (son of Karli). https://opendomesday.org/place/TA0183/seamer/ https://opendomesday.org/name/karli-son-of-karli/

No Emma, and no Gospatrick either.

There was *another* listing for a place called Seamer, well north and inland of the first one, and this one was held post-Conquest by Count Robert of Mortain (King William's half-brother), who subinfeudated it to one Richard of Sourdeval. This one actually *did* have a Gospatrick associated with it pre-Conquest, described as Gospatric (son of Arnketil). https://opendomesday.org/place/NZ4910/seamer/ https://opendomesday.org/name/gospatric-son-of-arnketil/

But there are no Percies in sight in Gospatric's former holdings - "Count Alan" is frequently mentioned, presumably meaning Alan the Red of Brittany.

Whoever Gospatric son of Arnketil was, he seems to have made peace with King William and been allowed to retain a portion of his former holdings: 62 manors in 1086 as opposed to 115 before 1066. (Poor Karli had to make do with half of one.)

With both Karli and Gospatric still on the scene in 1086, there was no "Saxon heiress" to hold these lands before the Conquest, so that part of the story is total myth.

Looks to me as though, centuries later, somebody mix-match-mashed the two Seamers and came up with that romantic nonsense about a "Lady of Seamer".

Ernald de Percy's relationship to William de Percy is not clear - possibly one of those unnamed brothers, possibly a cousin. Ernald seems to have hung around with the early Bruces:

ERNALD de Percy (-after [1129/35]). “Willelmus de Perci” donated property to the monks of Whitby “et Serloni priori fratri meo”, for the souls of “…Emma de Port uxore mea et Alano de Perci filio meo”, by charter dated to [1090/96], witnessed by “…Ernaldus de Perci…”[105]. “Robertus de Brus” confirmed donations to the canons of Bridlington by charter dated to [1120/35], witnessed by “…Ernaldus de Perceio…Petrus de Brus…”[106]. “Ernaldus de Percy” donated property to Gysburn priory by charter dated to [1129/35], witnessed by “Roberto de Brus…”[107]. m ---. The name of Ernald’s wife is not known. Ernald & his wife had two children:

a) ERNALD de Percy (-1170). A charter dated to [1145/54] records the dowry granted by “Robertus de Brus” to “Agathe filie sue” on her marriage to “Radulfo Ribaldi filio”, witnessed by “…Petro de Brus, Ernaldo de Perci…Herveo Ribaldi filio…”[108]. “Ernaldus de Percy” confirmed the donation to Gysburn priory by “patris mei”, by charter dated to [1154/65] which names “Rodberto fratre meo”[109].

(After Ernald II the Bruce connection disappears.)

Looking back at the Earls of Northumbria, conveniently listed on Wikipedia. There were several including Gospatric before and after the Conquest. There were none seated in that office during the Harrying of the North for a brief period 1069-70.

Robert de Comyn, Earl of Northumberland who was sent by William the Conqueror in 1068 to replace Gospatric and was defeated by the Saxons allowing Gospatric to regain power in that region -- was my 30th g-grandfather. I haven't yet checked the others to see how I might be related to them. :D

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_de_Comines

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earl_of_Northumbria

Gospatrick Earl of Northumbria wouldn't have much to do with this, since his father's name was NOT Arnketil.

The Complete Peerage does not support an Emma daughter of Gospatric, Earl of Northumbria. Dugdale claimed Julia, others have Uchtreda. Fonblanque specifically disclaims “lady of Semer” as his child.

Juan Carlos, Maven and Erica, I appreciate all of your efforts to help clear up the hazy and controversial origins of William de Percy's wife, Emma.

I plan to do more research and check back later if I find anything relevant to the question of whether she was Norman or not, and/or how she was related to Hugh de Port (if at all).

I have not decided conclusively, although obviously I trust some sources more than others and sometimes interpret the language differently. I want to wait and see what authoritative Medieval scholars have to say about it.

Earl Gospatric fitz Arkill

Allegedly my 29th g-grandfather. Name, place, and dates are all satisfactory as far as I'm concerned. Beyond that, who knows.

Gospatric fitz Arkill was an Earl of Northumbria, according to his Geni profile which was added in 2008.

Gospatric, Earl of Dunbar

This one is my 26th g-grandfather.

I suppose my question would be: isn’t the Complete Peerage “authoritative?”

Proposed corrections and update to TCP here: http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/cp/

Nice link, Erica, thank you, I really appreciate it. And of course I respect the Complete Peerage (I admitted earlier that I'd like a subscription for the official online version). But goodness, that's a lot of errors ;) They've earned an E for Effort, though. I trust they have all the best sources tucked away in their archives. :)

I meant some modern scholars like Judith A. Green, an outstanding retired professor and author of Medieval English history. I might enjoy listening to some of her/their lectures, if someone was kind enough to record them for posterity.

Simeon of Durham names "Cospatric son of Maldred son of Crinan" when recording that he was appointed Earl of Northumberland[1397]. Earl of Northumberland from Dec 1067. (Simeon was a younger contemporary, fl. 1074-1129.)

There is not much doubt that Earl Gospatrick's father was named Maldred, though there is room to question whether Maldred was a younger son of Crinan (and thus younger brother to Duncan Mac Malcolm, the ill-fated King of Scotland).

The Gospatric from Domesday is NOT the Earl of Northumberland. (He *may* be the grandson of the discarded Ecgfrida, but this requires more research.)

One must *never, ever* forget that two people in roughly the same place at the same time with similar names - ARE NOT NECESSARILY THE SAME PERSON.

i know quite a lot about that - hoo boy do I know - because people are always mixing up my direct ancestor Josephus Waters of Anne Arundel County (who stayed put) with his cousin Josephus Burton Waters of Frederick County, Maryland (who went over the horizon and kept going).

Gospatrick mac Maldred kept losing his titles because he kept rebelling against King William, surrendering to him, and being forgiven and reinstated. But after the second or third time William had had enough, and Gospatrick had to get out of the country. Simeon says he went to Scotland and appealed to Malcolm III Canmore (his kinsman), who granted him the lands (but not the title) of Dunbar.

Occam's Razor can really cut you if you get careless with it. The classic case is Dorothy Dunnett's "King Hereafter", in which she stretches artistic license to the breaking point to posit that not only were Macbeth of Scotland and Thorfinn Sigurdarson of Orkney the same person, but *Lady* Macbeth (Gruoch ingen Boite) was the same person as Ingebjorg Finnsdottir Arnmodling....

The first point is highly doubtful but arguable, the second is sheer nonsense.

Private User
Occam's Razor is a FAVE episode of HOUSE for me...as well as a FAVE "law"
(and Schrödinger's cat)... I am wondering IF you are operating under a pseudonym or if you really exist as a person named Maven...? Please forgive me, otherwise...

I hide behind a domino mask. It doesn't conceal much, but maybe just enough. :-)

Hmmmm... perhaps...but perchance I KNOW WHO you "are"?. Selah, cousin...

I was re reading about the origins of the Percy’s (and we really should get him & his brothers off the bogus count). They were a cadet branch from Calvados (sound familiar?) and William didn’t arrive until after 1067, so he wasn’t with the Duke for the slaughter. He did have a reputation for consorting with the starving, hiding & terrified English, including growing a beard like them. It reads however more like it was a way to gather a labor pool than any real sympathies. He was also as quarrelsome & argumentative as his supposed descendants. ... Hugh de Port “did” make it into several lists of the Duke’s companions. A daughter or niece of his would have been a logical alliance for both families, and I would bet it wasn’t their first.

Is there any other Saxon / Norman alliance at this landed gentry level?

Gospatric is roughly the same age as William de Percy. If William married soon after 1069, presuming he didn’t already have a Norman wife, that proposed Saxon lady would have been young indeed.

Quick article answering my question.

https://www.ourmigrationstory.org.uk/oms/the-norman-conquest-of-eng...

“Although most intermarriage took place at the highest aristocratic level, to broker peace deals, there were several instances of intermarriage at middling noble level. At lower social, but still noble, level we find mostly foreign men marrying English women. For example, Wigot of Wallingford, the English guardian of an important crossing of the Thames near Oxford, agreed to have his daughter Ealdgyth marry Robert d’Ouilly, one of King William’s henchmen and later Castellan of Oxford. The Domesday Book also tells us that an anonymous soldier, in the following of the Breton Knight Winehoc, had fallen in love with an anonymous woman, who was the owner of some land in Pickenham in Norfolk. This is, incidentally, the only explicit reference to love in the whole of the Domesday Book.”

http://scribbling-inthemargins.blogspot.com/2013/09/the-anglo-saxon...

“Marriage between incoming Normans and native English families was commoner than surviving sources indicate. There was inter-marriage at all levels of society. One evidence is that women's names changed less rapidly than men's names suggesting that newcomers sought English women as wives. ...”

As though all the above wasn't obvious just from the changes from Old English to Middle English! The latter shows a number of characteristics of a "creole" that developed into a full-fledged language (and probably kick-started the English language on its relentlessly acquisitive path - it's now notorious as the most aggressive language *ever* for taking vocabulary from other languages).

But in any case all this social background has little bearing on the question of whether Emma de Port was Saxon or Norman - her name, at least, is definitely Norman.

I had to ask myself if it was ever done in this generation & the Percy level of success. The answer is apparently so, but no examples given.

Emma de Port is a Norman name. The children had Norman names. It looks like Percy and Emma had property formerly belonging to Hugh de Port (?). The origin area in France is similar. All other de Ports accounted for. (?). De Port used clearly as surname, not nickname.

The Norman conquest: women, marriage, invasion

Intermarriage: a tool of peace negotiation

Women who had inherited family land because their husbands or fathers had been killed at Hastings in 1066, were only allowed to keep their family land if they married a Norman or Frenchman. In a sense such marriages were alliances, established to further the post-conquest social order and peace in England.

Within a decade of the conquest William the Conqueror himself did not refrain from using women in his own family as tools of peace negotiations. He betrothed his daughter Adeliza to the English Earl Edwin, though he was killed in 1070 before the marriage could take place. He married his niece Judith to Earl Waltheof (d. 1075) also an Englishman. These were high-status examples of exogamy.

Although most intermarriage took place at the highest aristocratic level, to broker peace deals, there were several instances of intermarriage at middling noble level. At lower social, but still noble, level we find mostly foreign men marrying English women. For example, Wigot of Wallingford, the English guardian of an important crossing of the Thames near Oxford, agreed to have his daughter Ealdgyth marry Robert d’Ouilly, one of King William’s henchmen and later Castellan of Oxford. The Domesday Book also tells us that an anonymous soldier, in the following of the Breton Knight Winehoc, had fallen in love with an anonymous woman, who was the owner of some land in Pickenham in Norfolk. This is, incidentally, the only explicit reference to love in the whole of the Domesday Book.

https://www.ourmigrationstory.org.uk/oms/the-norman-conquest-of-eng...