Emma de Port - Emma Lady of Semer and Skarburgh "aka Emma de la Port" was Saxon.

https://es.findagrave.com/memorial/57840104/emma-de_port

Emma de Port
NACIMIENTO 1038
Alnwick, Autoridad Unitaria de Northumberland, Northumberland, Inglaterra
DEFUNCIÓN 1100 (de 61–62 años de edad)
SEPULTURA
Abadía de Whitby
Whitby , distrito de Scarborough , North Yorkshire , Inglaterra
ID DEL HOMENAJE 57840104 · Ver fuente

HOMENAJE
FOTOS 1
FLORES 16
Hija de Gospatric de Port
Se casó con William de Percy en 1066, en Semar, Condado de Yorkshire, Inglaterra.
Emma y William eran padres de cinco hijos
Allan , Walter, William, Richard y Georffrey

*******************
Conflicto de paternidad
Ella era la hija del normando, Hugh de Port, Domesday Lord of Basing y Orence _____ [CP XI: 317, 318; _Domesday People_, pág. 266.]

Su padre, Hugh, nació en Port-En-Bessin, Calvados, Normandía, y murió en 1096.

I saw it, thank you Juan Carlos. I agree more with the first bio, except for his surname. I don't believe Gospatric (aka Cospatric) had a surname.

I think it's time for me to buy a couple of good books on the subject. I'm thinking one or two by Judith A. Green, and possibly a subscription to the Complete Peerage. I feel I have enough evidence already, that Emma was Saxon. I'm convinced of it. But it would be nice to find an excellent modern authority with which to corroborate the ancient historical accounts found in the record of Whitby Abbey. And two authorities would be even better :D

If I recall rightly, Scots and Borderfolk were at that time still doing patronymics and hadn't quite settled down to inheritable family names yet.

On the other hand, MedLands has her penciled in under HUGUES de Port {Port-en-Bessin, Calvados, arr. Bayeux, Normandy). https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/ENGLISHNOBILITYMEDIEVAL3P-S.htm#_T...

There are, by the way, no Gospatricks in *that* family - they are good Normans one and all.

Thank you, Maven. I saw the MedLands entry and didn't see where they had any sources listed to corroborate that claim. They seem to repeat the same vague assumption about her acquired 'surname' (I call it a nickname), "de Port".

And they have yet to complete the planned material for the "EARLS of NORTHUMBERLAND (1139): MOWBRAY, PERCY. ", among others.

Meanwhile, from the literature and Abbey records I gather that prior to her Post Conquest marriage Emma was Lady of Semer and Skarburgh, a Saxon aristocrat -- and according to the Abbey record she was "very" heire which is to say, "true" heir of those lands won by the Conqueror. It specifically states that she owned rights to the lands prior to the Conquest.

The Anglo Saxon Chronicles record that her alleged father, Gospatric, who was a big chief in Northumbria, following the Battle of Hastings fled to Scotland where he thrived for a few years before dying.

So she evidently never saw him again. And as he fought the Normans to the bitter end, I suspect he knew better than to try to pay her a family visit. In fact he must have had seriously mixed up feelings about his daughter and heir being married to a Norman naval officer.

And I gather furthermore that it was her inherent rights to ownership of the land that was the justification given by William, Baron of Topcliffe for marrying her. The Abbey record stated that he married her "in disposition of" (i.e. in order to satisfy or assuage) -- his "conscience".

That's a strange thing for a nobleman to say to church officials and one's peers about one's own marriage. They may have looked askance upon him for announcing his marriage to a Saxon lady and he felt the need to defend his choice of wife.

Although I doubt anyone dared to criticize William de Percy's wife publicly, the minstrels of the time did mention the fact of her ethnicity in their biographical verses pertaining specifically to his life and heroic deeds. How romantic. ;D And these great minstrels certainly attended the feasts held and parties given by the Lords of Northumberland.

William I had at first granted Emma's lands of Seamer and Scarbrough to Hugh "Lupus" d'Avranches, 1st Earl of Chester , before later transferring them to Wm. de Percy. History suggests that Hugh's reason for declining the gift was that he didn't like the untamed wilderness that it was at the time, and that it was so swampy as well (with lakes, moors, etc.) :D

Whatever the reason, William I swiftly changed his mind and re-gifted the the lands of Seamer and Scarbrough to William de Percy and wife, Emma. Apparently at the same time, de Percy also received many other vast estates.

Anyway, it's all very interesting and I intend to continue reading everything authoritative that I can find about it. I'm thrilled to have already dug up several good 18th century history books on Northumbria. (All of which so far have cited the Whitby record.) I'd also like to look into some modern scholarship on the subject, but I can see that accessing it will require a lot more effort. I'm afraid my local libraries are a big disappointment, at the risk of sounding ungrateful.

Also, Erica Howton, since the recent tree reconstruction Emma de Port is no longer my g-grandmother (although Wm. de Percy is still my g-grandfather).

Geni relationship calculator now reports her as my g-aunt (sister of Henry de Port, sheriff of Hants. who is also one of my g-grandfathers).

Maybe it is correct, and I'm just confused by all the intermarriage between the two families.

Something to bear in mind is that there were Normans in England *before* 1066 - they'd been seeping in for a couple of generations looking for opportunities. (Eustace [II] of Boulogne, for instance, was active in England in 1051, getting married to the King's sister, and then having his entourage get into a brawl with Earl Godwin's, which led to the Earl's temporary banishment.)

Actually, this IS a primary source: “Willelmus de Perci” donated property to the monks of Whitby “et Serloni priori fratri meo”, for the souls of “…Emma de Port uxore mea et Alano de Perci filio meo”, by charter dated to [1090/96], witnessed by “Emma de Port uxor mea, Alanus, Walterus et Willielmus filii mei, Ernaldus de Perci…”[Early Yorkshire Charters Vol. II, 855, p. 197.]. So yes, she was known as "Emma de Port" during her own lifetime.

With MedLands you always have to watch that "for the souls of" comment, because more often than not it's an elision for a reference to the spiritual well-being of the persons named *during and after* their lifetime.

As for taking a poem/song as a primary source, I really wouldn't if I were you. The romancers were over-fond of creating Norman-Saxon interactions, and even of ascribing Saxon ancestry to Normans (most infamously, Thomas à Becket!).

I checked up on "Semar" - there are two places by that name, one in Norfolk, one in Suffolk. Semer in Suffolk was in the keeping ot the Abbey of Bury St. Edmunds both before and after the Conquest. Semere in Norfolk belonged to one Edric of Laxfield before the Conquest and to Robert Malet afterward. (Apparently the Abbey had a piece of that one too.)

So no, no "Lady of Semer", no Gospatricks, no nothing.

As for Scarborough, by the time Tostig Godwinsson and Harald Hardraada got through with it earlier in 1066, it wasn't worth having. There is NO Domesday reference to it.

My primary source is the Whitby Abbey record already cited by me in the OP above. It clearly corroborates what I presented here about Emma, Lady of Semer and Skarburgh.

The Medlands source is not the same record that I cited here, so it is IRRELEVANT.

The song is just something that Thomas Percy, Bishop of Dromore wrote: "The Hermit of Warwick, a Ballad of Northumberland." He also authored the scholarly, "Reliques of Ancient English Poetry," which I read a year or so ago, as it explains the romances of the troubadours beautifully.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Percy_(bishop_of_Dromore)

https://archive.org/details/hermitofwarkwort00perc

Charter tagged here: https://archive.org/details/earlyyorkshirech02farruoft/page/196

Oh please. 1806? Do you realize how much time that gave the romancers to play around with the facts? The Icelandic Sagas are more reliable, and *they* are full of fanciful embroidery already after only a couple of centuries.

Maven, if you had read my OP would have seen that it is written in the Whitby Abbey record of 1088:

"...his mother Emme of the Porte.

Which Emme fyrst was Lady of Semer besides Skarburgh afore the Conquest...

and [Wm. de Percy] wedded [Emma, Lady of Semer and Skarburgh, aka "of the Porte"] that was very (i.e. "true") heire to them in discharging of his conscience."

Now it is a question of logic why, if these lands already belonged to Hugh de Port -- it was never mentioned in the records of William I. It is only mentioned that William I the Conqueror granted those wild Northern lands first to Hugh Lupus of Chester and then shortly thereafter to Wm. de Percy -- almost immediately following the Battle of Hastings.

That's something to think about.

"A View of Northumberland" dates from 1776. it is SO NOT the horse's mouth.

Your other citations in the same post are worthless - just book covers.

You DID NOT provide a link to your copypaste reference to "Abbot Stephen", so it is impossible to evaluate.

*** NO ONE *** was in charge of Scarborough from 1066 to somewhere well after 1100. The place was a RUIN, a WASTE, as Tostig and Harald had left it.

Tostig HAD been in charge of it - and TRASHED it. (And anything he left standing, William himself probably finished off during the Harrying of the North.)

You still have no answer for why Semer in Norfolk or Suffolk had anything to do with Scarborough in North Yorkshire.

Your Whitby Abbey entry was written MUCH later than "1088" - it mentions Percy's GRANDSON "who succeeded [his father Alain]". This means the entry *CANNOT* date from any earlier than 1130 at the *very* earliest.

Chroniclers were always doing that, writing down stuff that had happened decades or centuries earlier, which is why they are not as reliable as actual charters and things from the actual time of events.

The charter I cited *IS A DATED FACT* and has no romance about it whatsoever.

About the only place a Saxon could get into the picture is the mysterious and unsourced "Orence" who was the wife of Hugh de Port. The name doesn't sound Saxon - and "Emma" MOST DEFINITELY IS NOT a Saxon name for that matter.

Or had all of you forgotten that Emma of Normandy got renamed "Aelfgifu" when she married Cnut/Canute?

Here's what we know for certain:
William de Percy married Emma de Port.
William and Emma had sons Alan, Walter, William, and Richard.
William de Percy had a brother named Serlo who was monk and eventually abbot at Whitby.
Some time between 1090 and 1097 William and his family deeded a number of territories to his brother Serlo the prior and the monks at Whitby, witnessed and cosigned by his whole family and also Thomas Archbishop of York. (Every person and every place in the document has been more or less successfully identified.)

(The footnotes suggest that this was a guilt offering because William had caused so much trouble for Serlo and the monks earlier. But this is just speculation.)

PS: the "port" referred to in the document is Whitby, which was and is a minor seaport. It has nothing to do with Port-en-Bessin in Normandy, from which the de Port family took its name.

The Early Charters of Yorkshire is a wonderful secondary source, but the grant you cited (number 855) is again irrelevant to this topic, which is an attempt to identify the origins of the wife of William de Percy.

However, number 860 is more interesting as it describes a Grant and surrender by Alan de Percy, 2nd baron of Topcliffe in c.1125-30 to the church of Whitby of 2 carucates of land in Isleham ("Gisleham"), co. Cambridge, which had been the marriage endowment of a "kinswoman" of Hugh de Port.

This one actually ties the two families together, although again without primary sources. Again it is simply conjecture or legend repeated by the author, in the footnotes.

I know many mixed ethnicity marriages wherein the names of one of the partners is changed by the family of the other. For example, I know a "Jorge" (pronouned hor-hey in Spanish) who is called "George" (pronouned jorj) by his wife and her family.

For what it's worth, I did find a "Seamer" in Yorkshire, on the coast near to Scarborough - BUT there was no "Gospatrick" involved with it. The pre-Conquest holder was one Karli Karlison. And either he, or a son of the same name, was still holding on to a small piece of Bolton in the hundred of Pocklington and the county of Yorkshire in 1086.

I. GIVE. UP.

There is NO possible communication with someone who DOES NOT EVEN KNOW WHAT A PRIMARY SOURCE IS, and who REFUSES to accept PRIMARY sources because SECONDARY (or worse) sources support the preferred story.

Correct, Seamer in current Yorkshire is and always has been near Scarborough. Emma "of the Port" was the Lady of those two estates which included a huge lake, according to the Whitby Abbey record that I cited above.

If you can provide sources for Karli Karlison it would be helpful, although I'm sure I can find it easily enough on my own.

Now with regard to Isleham (aka Gisleham), "A History of the County of Cambridge and the Isle of Ely: Volume 10, Cheveley, Flendish, Staine and Staploe Hundreds (North-Eastern Cambridgeshire)." Originally published by Victoria County History, London, 2002. is quoted on BHO the following:

"ISLEHAM: MANORS

"The remaining ancient manor, called by c. 1500 UPHALL manor (fn. 270) probably derived from the 2/3 hide in Isleham held in 1066 by Ordgar, then sheriff of Cambridgeshire,

"and by 1086 by Hugh de Port, lord of Snailwell. (fn. 271)

"Hugh later gave it with Snailwell to William de Percy (fn. 272) (d. c. 1100).

"Their son Alan de Percy (d. 1130 × 1135), (fn. 273) perhaps confirming a gift by his mother Emma, gave, possibly c. 1120, two carucates at Isleham to Whitby abbey (Yorks. N.R.). (fn. 274)

"Though confirmed to Whitby not only by King Stephen c. 1136, but by Edward II, (fn. 275) the Isleham estate no longer belonged to that abbey in the 13th century. (fn. 276)"

So this estate in Cambridgeshire that was surrendered to the Abbey by Alan de Percy originally belonged to Hugh de Port who gave it to William de Percy possibly as part of a marriage endowment associated with Hugh's "kinswoman", Emma "of the Port", Lady of Seamer and Scarbrough.

It does seem reasonable to assume that this wife of Wm. de Percy was a blood relative of the Hugh de Port family. Yet the earlier (1088) Whitby record does not corroborate that assumption. And Isleham in Cambridgeshire is a fair distance from Seamer and Scarbrough in the far north of England. Nevertheless, Hugh de Port and William de Percy were probably well acquainted with one another anyway.

And this particular record speaks only to the ownership by Hugh de Port of the manor in Cambridgeshire; I've yet to find anything connecting him directly to Seamer and Scarbrough, in northern England.

On the contrary, every history I've read about the latter estates have them being won from the Saxons by William I and awarded for service at the Battle of Hastings first to Hugh of Chester and later to Wm. de Percy, husband of the Lady of those same estates, whom he married because his "conscience" told him that she was the "true" heir (and probably also because he liked her).

So the records clearly indicate that the de Percys received the lands of Seamer and Scarbrough directly from the hand of William the Conqueror, not from Hugh de Port nor even from Emma "of the Port".

https://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/cambs/vol10/pp427-437

As far as I can tell, there was no “Emma of the Port” or Lady of Semer. Nor did Gospatric, of Northumbria, have a known daughter Emma.

The 18th & 19th century antiquarians give no name or parents for the Lady of Semer. I referenced what seemed the most logical retelling of the story on the other discussion; I’ll dig up the link again.

The Whitby charters for the children of Emma de Port style her name that way. Her marriage portion is property in areas Hugh de Port held. More than that, the origin of the Percy’s seem to be in the same Calvados area of Normandy as the de Ports.

So I’m at the same conclusion I was previously.

It is conceivable Percy had a Saxon bride as per the romance, but her name wasn’t Emma and she was not the mother of his children. Because they named their mother.

Links are in her profile. I personally think it likely she’s Hugh’s daughter because she shared ownership of a house with his daughter Adelaide.

—-
Cokayne's Complete Peerage, 2nd Edition, Vol. X, pp. 435-438

William de Percy married Emma de Port, who brought Hambledon, Hants, in marriage and who gave a mansura in Ousegate, York and a Carucate in Isleham and another in Snailwells, Cambs, to Whitby Abbey. Emma was related to Hugh de Port of Basing, the ancestor in the male line of the family of St. John. Hambledon descended in the Percy family; and it is significant that in 1242/3, William de Percy had 3 tenants there who held of him a knight's fee of old feoffment, and he of Robert de St. John, who held in chief. Moreover, in 1086, Hugh de Port had an interest in Isleham and Snailwell where Emma's interest was undoubtedly a further portion of her maritagium.

—-

From Annals of the House of Percy: From the Conquest to the Opening of the Nineteenth Century, Volume 1. Edward Barrington De Fonblanque (1887). Page 13. GoogleBooks

EMMA DE PORT.

William de Percy married a Saxon lady of rank, but there are no records to establish her parentage. is generally described as Emma de Port,1 the Norman A.d. surname having probably been given to her by the invaders in right of her ownership of Semer near Scarborough, then an important seaport. A graceful legend reports her to have been a daughter of Gospatrick, Earl of Northumberland,' who conferred her hand upon the Norman knight in recompense for his having saved her father's life when, on the suppression of the rebellion, he had fallen into the hands of the Conqueror's army. According to Dugdale, however, the Saxon Earl had only one daughter, Julia, who became the wife of Ranulph de Marley, and we must fall back upon this more prosaic version of Percy's marriage in an ancient MS.: "Emma of the Porte .... was Lady of Semer besides Skarburgh afore the Conquest, and of other lands, William Conqueror gave to Syr William Percye for his good service; and he weddid hyr that was very heir to them in discharging of his conscience."3

—-

So - a romance. “she” (unnamed Saxon lady) ascribed the name of the known Percy wife.

I just refreshed the relationship calculator: she’s no longer “direct” for me either.

Not that I necessarily believe these paths, or the previous ones. And I would be related multiple ways in any event this far back.

Emma de Port is your 26th great aunt.

Emma de Port is your 23rd great grandmother's husband's second great grandmother.

Who was Arnald de Percy, of Kildale ?

I see this in Medlands:

https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/ENGLISHNOBILITYMEDIEVAL3P-S.htm#Wi...

SERLON (-[1109]). The History of the foundation of Whitby Monastery records that ”Hugo comes Cestrensis” granted “villam de Whytteby” to “Willielmus de Percy” who came to England in 1067 and founded the monastery with “Serloni fratri suo”[90]. A charter listing the property of Whitby Monastery records that ”Serlo de Perci frater…Willielmi de Perci” became a monk at Whitby and later succeeded as abbot[91]. “Willelmus de Perci” donated property to the monks of Whitby “et Serloni priori fratri meo”, for the souls of “…Emma de Port uxore mea et Alano de Perci filio meo”, by charter dated to [1090/96], witnessed by “Emma de Port uxor mea, Alanus, Walterus et Willielmus filii mei, Ernaldus de Perci…”[92].