Baron Hugh de Port (St. John) - Brother with same name

The Earl of Northumberland had no daughter who married a Percy. It’s part of the nonsense Percy pedigree.

Erica Howton something else to consider is
Henry de Port, sheriff of Hants.

Has a daughter named Ethelreda and so does Gospatric de Port according to

http://www.englishmonarchs.co.uk/dunkeld_4.htm

BTW this article is incorrect

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_de_Port

Hugh was not the father of Adam.

He may have had an Adam brother (Cawley) and he certainly had an Adam nephew (Round).

Yes, I would consider Emma de Port as daughter of 3rd brother. I think she’s likely too young - she was living in 1115 - to have been a sister.

Debra, there is conclusive (in my book) evidence that William de Percy married Emma de Port of the Calvados family and that was her full name; her property brought to the Marriage was in county Hampshire like the Calvados family (also Cambridge); she signed charters to Whitby Abbey as Emma de Port; and her property in Hampshire apparently was as Emma de Percy !!!

So the question is - did he also have a Saxon lady of Semer as wife?

But there was no Gospatric de Port. That’s what I’m trying to say. There may have been a Gospatric. Who was absolutely not the Earl of Northumberland.

http://www.knight-france.com/geneal/names/4686.htm

Is this one correct, Erica?

Re: https://www.geni.com/discussions/205017?msg=1349200

Emma de Port’s husband, as described by Cawley.

William de Percy died in Jerusalem.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_de_Percy

Percy accompanied Robert Curthose, Duke of Normandy, on the First Crusade, where he died within sight of Jerusalem. His body was buried at Antioch, and his heart was returned to England and was buried in Whitby Abbey.

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Cawley is absolutely referring to the same William de Percy. And his wife signed her name as Emma de Port. No Saxon lady would have done so, since they didn’t speak French.

The Geni profile is even more correct. :):). Be sure and look there first - I’ve been adding references.

Cawley is the modern scholar working in medieval genealogy. He’s our first stop. Now, apparently the real expert in the 1066 knights is Keats-Rohan, but her work is not as easily accessible. From what I can make out of references, Cawley’s constructions are congruent with hers in this area.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katharine_Keats-Rohan

The Percy family is an especially difficult problem. We are very lucky to have had Round address the de Ports, and he placed Emma wife of Percy in that family.

Read this again (2013)

https://books.google.com/books?id=EkB2UdPlD4sC&lpg=PA1&dq=S...

Erica Howton the only thing is the dates are different but it does give one something to think about.

Oh this is funny!

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/st-john/about/results

“We also have some strong implications that some of the Irish St. Johns may bear a genetic relationship to some of the English St. Johns, specifically those clustered in haplogroup I1. We also might have a slight possibility with matching a Swedish man with those I1 St. Johns, thus potentially substantiating the historical posture that the descendants of Hugh Gospatric DePort, of Port de Bessin, Normandie, was of Scandinavian origin.“

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I’ve created a new profile for Gospatric as a possibility for the Lady of Seamer (“alternate Emma”) parent.

Hampshire is not Yorkshire. If Emma de Port had no property at Seamer, she was not “the Lady of Semer,” and William de Percy got that property in a different way.

Erica, "Adam was the son of either Hugh de Port[2] or Hubert de Port."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_de_Port_(d._c._1133)

And is this the book you are referring to as "your book"? This says that William de Percy was from the Calvados region in France, but claims that Emma de Port was a member of the Hugh de Port family which lived nowhere even close to Seamer or Scarborough. (Or Calvados, apparently.)

https://books.google.com/books?id=EkB2UdPlD4sC&pg=PA1&lpg=P...

https://books.google.com/books?id=FffUAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA428&lpg...

"Gospatric, the granter of the charter, was probably Gospatric, son of earl Uhtred of Northumbria, who died in 1064."

https://www.british-history.ac.uk/rchme/westm/xlviii-lv

Also, "[Seamer] is said to have belonged to Emma de Port before the Conquest. Whitby Chartul. (Surt. Soc.), 690."

The de Port family I believe came over with the Conqueror? So they didn't live in England before the Conquest? Particularly not in the Anglo Saxon stronghold of Seamer?

https://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/yorks/north/vol2/pp483-489

Anyway, I've had enough fun with it. It's getting very late and I have to think about my day job now. :D

Erica Howton Ok I forgot the he died in Jerusalem.. LOL

Re: The de Port family I believe came over with the Conqueror? So they didn't live in England before the Conquest? Particularly not in the Anglo Saxon stronghold of Seamer?

Correct. Both the Percy & de Ports were Calvados families. Hughes de Port was the Domesday (1066) lord of Basing, and was “an obscure NORMAN knight” who did great work for William the Conqueror pillaging & murdering the English in the Conquest, and was amply rewarded with 52 manors, none in Yorkshire or Northumberland. His patron was Odo. Apparently these de Ports (no evidence of English ones ?) still had Normandy property as late as 1133.

Erica Howton so what do we think? I think there was another wife.

Also I looked at
http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/ENGLISHNOBILITYMEDIEVAL3P-S.htm#Joh...

It looks to me that Adam is depicted as being a brother to Hubert and Hugh based on the numeral order? At least one Adam.

I’d like to get more feedback from the peanut gallery (I know they’re watching) about creating a hypothetical 1st wife. I’m comfortable we’ve described the issue in the Emma de Percy profile? Can we make it any clearer?

I’m so far inclined to think “Saxon lady” is legendary, there were a number of ways Percy could have acquired his 83 manors. And the Percy boys refer to Emma de Port as their mother, so I really do think it was her surname.

Of course reading the Whitby charters in the original Medieval Latin could clarify. Or not. :)

Erica Howton is this to be believed? Is this the Gospatric we have been talking about?

Right, I’m a little confused by the Adams Cawley lists, and apparently I’m not the only one. I’d leave well enough alone. As you mentioned we have an extra Percy to get rid of.

Erica Howton if so then he could not be Emma's father.

Gospatric I just created based on thePeerage link. So far though I see no proof of existence.

http://www.thepeerage.com/p15828.htm#i158275 Lists Emma as b 1038 d aft 1096. Which would rule her out as daughter of Hugh unless he’s that ridiculous birth date of 1015 Wikipedia has.

But the Peerage link also gives William de Percy fictional parents, and offers next to no citations for their profiles.

I made Gospatric more based on the Antiquarian studies, which despite their romantic flourishes, seem sincere in their efforts to identify “the lady of Semer” based on the charter.

Erica Howton I am wondering if

Henry de Port, sheriff of Hants.

really had a daughter named Ethelreda (or Uchtreda)

Ethelreda de Port

but Gospatric did

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospatric,_Earl_of_Northumbria

I only bring that up cause I can't find many things to support the former.

By then Ethelreda could be a Name coincidence.

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Here’s more evidence Emma de Port, wife of Percy, was of the Calvados family. Notice the name Picot de Percy - Picot being a dr Port collateral family - in fact, the husband of the Ethelreda de Port you’re looking at: http://cybergata.com/roots/4850.htm

http://cybergata.com/roots/9287.htm

~Cokayne's Complete Peerage, 2nd Edition, Vol. X, pp. 438-440

• Background Information. 141
Alan de Percy was son and heir of William and Emma. On 9 Jan 1100, William II issued a notification that he had restored to the Bishop of Durham lands in the soke of Welton, East Riding, Yorkshire, which had been in dispute between Alan and the Bishop. In the period 1100-1115 and later, he issued charters to Whitby Abbey, confirming gifts made by his father in Yorkshire and Lindsey, and adding gifts of his own. In a couple of charters, Alan mentions his father, William de Percy, and his mother, Emma de Port; and among the witnesses to these charters are William, Walter and Richard his brothers, and Picot de Percy.

Erica Howton yeah I saw reference to Picot de Percy but I just want to be sure we have everything correct. :)

I think the legend has it wrong. Unless William de Percy also married Uchtreda?

Maybe Uchtreda was "the lady of semer" and people somehow just assumed that is was Emma de Port?

Erica Howton my grandmother told me along time ago that behind every legend is some truth.

http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/normabc.htm

Erica, William de Percy, "Algernon" married Emma the Saxon Lady only AFTER he'd already been granted her property by William the Conqueror's close associate, Hugh of Chester (he was known by several names, so I hope that doesn't confuse anyone).

He married Emma, Lady of Seamer and Scarbrough, but not for her property--- because it already legally belonged to him shortly following the Conquest. As I posted in the beginning of the discussion (with multiple sources), Percy claimed to marry Emma because his "conscience" told him it was the right thing to do (since she'd been stripped of her fortune and family and was described as an 'orphan').

He probably actually thought this formerly privileged and wealthy young noblewoman was attractive, as they had several children together and there is no evidence of him having any other wives. It seems reasonable that he might have felt the need to justify his decision to marry a Saxon. And equally reasonable that the Normans might have given her the nickname, "de Port", in reference to Seamer, located near a large lake.

As I pointed out earlier, de Port was not Emma's surname. I doubt the Saxons had surnames as a rule. She received the nickname following the Conquest and her marriage to William de Percy. Prior to that she was known only as Emma, Lady of Seamer and Scarbrough.

It really does look as though the Saxon and Norman families have become conflated due to the confusion over "de Port" and the fact that although not completely unheard of, intermarriage between Normans and Saxons was relatively rare.

And I really think “lady of Seamer” is a romantic legend from the Victorian age of Romantic Antiquarians. :). I’ve well covered the references in her profile so people can evaluate for themselves; but the children’s mother was Emma de Port, or so they had said.

Find me a late 20th century reference and I’ll reconsider, or a contemporary one from Whitby charters.

The problem with Geni profiles is they get reproduced in personal trees and distorted, resulting in impossibilities like “Hughes Gospatric de Port” (mixing languages no less!). Since we don’t know of children, we’re not sure of her first name, and we don’t really know her father’s name - all we really have is a “lady of Semer” story, and it’s in Emma’s profile.

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Ethelreda de Port Does seem a little weak as daughter of Henry de Port, sheriff of Hants. - Cawley doesn’t have her listed - but I did add legitimate references just now; and we have “Picot Percy!” So of course she’s related to the Percy’s, and that is best explained by “aunt” Emma, isn’t it?

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Ethelreda is missing brothers if anyone wants to enter them based http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/ENGLISHNOBILITYMEDIEVAL3P-S.htm#Joh...

Although I may die with yet another Adam de Port ...