Magalit Margola Jaffe-Margaliot (Lieberman) - Sources from Jaffe-Margaliot to Rabbi Gershom

I found it. The path up to King David etc was from Mrs. Margolios AB"D Eisenstadt

When I rearranged to match Meir Wunder's work, she is no longer everyone's ancestor. So that is why the numbers have gone down.

Right, exactly.

In case anyone is wondering, from "Isaac the Jew", Charlemagne's Diplomat upwards, the line still continues to the exilarchs, and thence to infinity. I think the association of Isaac with Natronai is the *sole* remaining connection upwards to the exilarchs. The sources I've read don't mention his parentage at all though.

Going the other way on the descendant report, there's several connections downward to the rabbinic line:

1. The Mrs Margolios one that you noted. She's still actually connected in both directions, as of a few minutes ago.

2. The ibn Yahya line (I've heard this may be spurious, as there's some connections in there that aren't well supported by the historical record) - descendants of Don Yahya "el Negro"

3. The Luria line, i.e. descendants of Rabbi Nachman Luria - which may have the best documentation of all of these.

I haven't found any other lines going down to today.

The "source" for the Natronai Ibn Habibai, Exilarch of Pumbeditha & Almeria connection to Narbonne apparently comes from here - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Makhir_of_Narbonne - but this explicitly says it is spurious.

Here's another nonsensical one:

Shmuel HaNagid - Samuel HaNagid - is a Levi.

His father is listed as the last Gaon of Sura - a Cohen.

Impossible!

Private User, it would be helpful if you started a discussion on those problem profiles, if you haven't already. Thanks.

Randy Schoenberg I've added discussions on each of those profiles.

We matched with the al fateth family on myheritage. So it seems the line is correct, as the al Fateh go back to Spain and the Cordoba califate and before that, the exilarchs etc.

Rabbeinu Gershom ben Yehudah Me'Or Hagolah is your 16th cousin 27 times removed.
You
→ Fritz Gustav Henrik Lars Mörling
your father → Märta Mörling, Stiftsjungfru från Preetz i Holstein
his mother → Frederik Ferdinand Eduard (Fritz) Greve af Reventlow
her father → Einar Carl Ditlev Greve af Reventlow
his father → Sophie Frederikke Louise Charlotte von Beulwitz
his mother → Sophia Hedvig von Warnstedt
her mother → Louise Hedvig Diede Zum Fürstenstein, Friherreinde
her mother → Eitel Diede Zum Fürstenstein
her father → Christoph Wilhelm Diede zum Fürstenstein
his father → Margarethe von Meysenburg
his mother → Wilhelm Jost von Meysenburg
her father → Johann von Meysenbug
his father → Ermgard von Meysenbug, verw. von der Malsburg
his mother → Burghard von Papenheim
her father → Herbord von Papenheim
his father → Ermgardis von der Asseburg
his mother → Agnes von Büren
her mother → Ermgard von Broich
her mother → Agnes Stecke von Broich
her mother → Prinzessin Sophia van Limburg
her mother → Cunégonde de Haute-Lorraine
her mother → Ludmilla of Poland
her mother → Elisabeth, Princess of Hungary
her mother → Jelena Urošević, Queen consort of Hungary
her mother → Anna Diogenissa
her mother → Constantine Diogenes
her father → Anna of Bulgaria
his mother → Alusian of Bulgaria
her father → Ivan Vladislav, Tsar of Bulgaria
his father → Aron Komitopulos
his father → Ripsime Kometopouloi / Cometopuli
his mother → Ashot II "the Iron"
her father → Smbat I "the Martyr" King of Armenia
his father → Ashot I "the Great", King of Armenia
his father → Prince Smbat VIII "the Confessor" of Armenia
his father → Prince Ashot IV "Msaker" of Armenia
his father → Prince Smbat VII of Armenia
his father → Prince Ashot III "the Blind" of Armenia
his father → Prince Vasak of Armenia
his father → Arshakuni
his mother → Manuel Arshakuni
her father → N.N., son of Johannes Moustakon Arscruni
his father → Iohannes Moustakou
his father → Ino Aelia Anastasia Augusta
his sister → Constantina Augusta
her daughter → Flavia Miriamne .
her daughter → Shahrijar, Prince of Sasanian Persia
her son → Yazdgerd III, Shah of Persia
his son → Sassanid Princess Dara Izdadwar
his daughter → Hisdai Shahrijar "Sheshna" ben Bustanai, Exilarch & Gaon of Sura
her son → Salome bat' Hisdai Shahrijar
his daughter → Yehudai 'Habibai' ben Natronai, Exilarch of Pumbeditha & Carcassonne
her son → Natronai Ibn Habibai, Exilarch of Pumbeditha & Almeria
his son → "Isaac the Jew", Charlemagne's Diplomat
his son → Yehudah Zakkai ben Yitzhak
his son → Machir Todros ben Yehudah Zakai
his son → Nathan Kalonymus ben Machir Todros
his son → Machir ben Nathan
his son → Yehuda "Zakkai" ben Machir
his son → Rabbeinu Gershom ben Yehudah Me'Or Hagolah
his son

Nils Christian* Lars Mörling there's a number of incorrect connections in that tree, as well as a couple that are sketchy.

1. Isaac the Jew is mentioned only in two or three contemporaneous sources, and none of them mention his family at all. i.e. any guess at his parentage or children is incorrect.

2. Natronai Ibn Habibai was exiled to North Africa, not France. The profile here conflates his identity with somebody named Makir, who was sent as an ambassador to one of the Charleses. They may not have lived in the same generation even. The connection between the two likely comes from a book from the 1970s that was disproven at the time of publication.

3. I've never been convinced about the connection between the Romans and Sassanids, or between the Sassanids and the exilarchs. It's not impossible, and a while ago somebody posted an Arabic source that I couldn't evaluate. It's sketchy though.

4. The various Armenian-Roman generations are highly likely to be a medieval forgery.

Found another one in the genealogy above:

5. Rabbeinu Gershom's approximate date of birth is well attested - circa 960. The profile listed as his father would have been 65 years old when he was born, which is not realistic.

Randy Schoenberg you may want to take a look at the Gershom / Yehuda profiles. Not sure if it's just mistakes or deliberate sabotage.

* Rabbeinu Gershom
* Judah

How has it been this way?

It's an open site. People keep messing around with the data.

Okay!

Not wanting to be an ass, but dna matches for my brother include descendants of the princes of Kiev, of the arpads, some spanish whose common ancestor is circa 1360 and kings of castille y leon, also the Al fateh, Rahman and other arabic families, and Isserles which I think is also through mom.
All that is through mom.

So if we are to look at the issenides and romans and all the lines you seem to doubt, how to we go from Welsh princes to arabic cordoba, through Arpad hungary to Kiev ?

Mom is supposed to be related to many historical rabbis for hundreds of years.

But the rest seems more than accurate, genetically speaking.

So why would the jewish lines be lies ?

How do you know exactly how those matches work, genealogically?

Everybody is related to everybody else, on a scale of a couple of thousand years.

Just to quantify things a bit:

What I find is that my baseline match with *any* other person of Ashkenazic descent is around 1% (60cM or so). My baseline with random generic people of Western or Northern European ancestry tends to be around 1 to 10cM.

All that is saying is that at some point, historically, there's a common ancestor. Could be a couple of thousand years ago. Or it could be random statistical noise.

I have nothing of substance to add but I want to applaud the efforts here to weed out the BS that desecrates the serious work being done by Randy Schoenberg and Jeremy Leichtman (and others as well). My own genealogy now goes back to King David but via a son not mentioned in the Tanach or the Rabbinic sources. To me the giveaway is when these ancient connections turn on an "unknown" daughter or wife of a famous rabbi marrying into another rabbinic family. Undoubtedly, this did happen but there is never any source material for these connections. I have asked questions on these profiles without any response, so it was refreshing and exciting to see that on some profiles there truly is a search for truth.
I thought the purpose of a Master Profile was to prevent this type of abuse....... Does not seem to be working.... But thanks to those who want to base genealogy on facts and not dreams.

Stephen Wise Feingold

I will answer you in general without referring to any name,
unfortunately usually women's names are not written in rabbinic literature, and as you go back less and less is known about the women's names
.
But, it is often written that the daughter of X is the wife of Y, and because it is known both who was X and who was Y, This allows to connect branches.

True, I would be happy if profile openers would write where they found the information (by the way, I always do), and it would allow others to try and verify the information

Stephen Wise Feingold Randy is doing important work on genealogy. I just moan and complain sometimes when I see something obviously wrong.

I guess they say R' Mordechai son of R' Samuel, they meant to R' Samuel ben Natronai the grandson of the famous Rasbhat.
The grandson died young in 1197.
If it's true, 40+- years per generation is possible.

The source of linage- Q&A Maharshal 29

Haim Wartski,HaCohen
I agree with you that sometimes such notations can be useful. But in my own family tree there is a reference that Rabbi Shmuel of Altona in approximately the 1600s had a child who was married to a child of Rabbi Azriel Ben Yehudah. But this is expressed as saying they were machatanim. We therefore do not know from which side came the groom or the bride. We do know that this Rabbi Azriel had at least two sons. One was married to the daughter of Rabbi Ari Leib Altschuler. The other (Gershom Mendle ben Rav Azriel ben Yehudah) we do not know the name of his bride. And we do not have any knowledge of a daugther. One could therefore assume that the dauthger of Rabbi Shmuel married Gershon Mendele. But that is mere conjecture. But it would then allow all the decendants of Rabbi Gershon ben Rabbi Azriel ben Rav Yehudah to claim they were decendants of Rabbi Shmuel of Altona. Now lets say for the moment that we could connect Shmuel into some rabbinice tree (which I have not been able to do). Suddenly the decendants of Gershon Mendele are the decendants of this famous rabbinic tree. But all of this on the supposition - ie the guess- that the bride came from Rabbi Shmuel etc.

I know you agree with me that this type of lineage is bogus. But i think it is far more this type of reasoning that allows for the connection to be made between families than real evidence. The marriage of Yehudah Leib to a daugher of Ari Leib Altshuler is documented in Toldot HaYehudim b'Kovno v"Slobadka. But without any footnote to support it. And in all my dna testing I have found no one that is easily connected to the Altschuler family. So even here when one can cite a record (a book no less) it is dubious how much weight can be given.