Severing the Maharal's deep ancestry

To be clear, I am proposing to sever the Maharal's maternal grandfather Chaim from his father.
Chaim of Issenheim, [Maharal Mat-Gd.father]

None of the dates seem to add up.

This article lists some of the sources - http://chfreedman.blogspot.com/2007/06/maharal-of-pragues-descent-f... - not sure how hard it would be to track those down and verify them.

The late MichaelHoney (Honigwachs), a meticulous genealogy researcher did work on the Maharashtra genealogy. His charts are displayed in the Sifrin Leumi at HUJ. His papers are in the National Archives, Jerusalem.
Saul issroff, London

Private User here's an index: https://portal.ehri-project.eu/units/il-002777-wp2_bt-122_000_000/s... - unfortunately nothing digitized.

I found a lengthy academic paper that covers the topic in great detail (and includes many tombstone photos and scans of various texts) - https://www.academia.edu/17803222/Judah_Loew_ben_Bezalel_called_Mah...

The Maharal was descendant of Rabbi Chaim and the King David Dynasty on his Paternal lineage! In some Sources, Rabbi Bezalel father of Maharal Married to the daughter of Rabbi Yizchak Klauber.

As another aside, the Akta Miasta na Poznania (town ordinances from Pozen) are still present in the Polish archives, dating back to the 13th century. If the Maharal's father was an important businessman, there should be significant presence in those records.

Netanel Isaiah Frisch, that is what some people want to believe. But so far there are no actual sources for the names in the genealogy we have on Geni.

Private User that article is one of the sources we have used already, but it does not provide any deeper genealogy for the maternal grandfather Chaim.

Private User I knew Michael Honey and am the source for his charts being online. He also had nothing on the deep genealogy, as far as I know.

Private User as far as I can tell Private User also has found no sources for the deep genealogy.

I agree with severing the line until we can prove the information. I reviewed it a long time ago and discounted it as inaccurate.

According to the 1904 version of the Jewish Encyclopedia (VOL VII, P. 353-355- ; He "was the second son of Bezaleel ben Hayyim. His father was the brother of Jakob Worms, the chief rabbi of all communities of the German empire and brother in law if Isaac Klauber of Posen, whose grandson was Solomon Luria. Low's elder brother Hayyim (see Hayyim ben Bezaleel) studied with Shalom Shankna. Low also had younger brothers name Simon and Samson, who enjoyed reputations as scholars. As Low never speaks of himself in his books. Little is known about his life. '
In the article it states that his wife belonged to the eminent Altshuler family of Prague. Although this does not reference the grandparents it may help in finding additional data

Bibliograph: Lieben, Gal "Ed, Prague 1856; and two other sources dated 1903. I am not

stating that there information is correct but who knows .

Randy Schoenberg I agree as well. As you noted, it's easy to add back later on if need be.

Ann, this is the book quoted by the 1904 Jewish Encyclopedia - https://www.kestenbaum.net/auction/lot/Auction-76/076-237/

If I'm not mistaken that book in turn is also citing the mistaken Perels genealogy.

Here's "Gal Ed" in WorldCat, in case somebody wants to track down a copy and check first-hand: http://worldcat.org/identities/lccn-nr00017035/

I think it would be wonderful to sever the deep ancestry of the Maharal. I agree with you completely.

Ann Elise Bettelheim the old articles are based on Pereles' now debunked article. Putik discussed is at length in his article in the Maharal book (cited above). And in any case, it does not include any of the deep genealogy we are discussing here. See https://geni0-mhcache-com-myheritage.netdna-ssl.com/media/p13/d4/7d...

Private User Gal Ed also doesn't help. https://media.geni.com/p13/1f/9c/ff/3f/5344484836e396f5/gal-ed_orig...

I've been through all these sources, so no need to refer me to them. The only thing that would change the situation would be a source for the Maharal's grandfather Chaim's father. When you find that, let us know.

I think the source, if it still exists would be in the Polish archives, or in whichever archives the relevant documents from Worms are stored in (if still extant). From what I know of the Poznan town council documents, that's a multi-year search. Few people will have the motivation to hunt through a hundred thousand pages of mixed Latin, Polish, German and Yiddush in order to find them.

Randy Schoenberg

I offer something much more practical: contact Rabbi Naftali Aharon Wakstein and ask him
He doesn't speak English (to my knowledge), needs a curator who knows and speaks Hebrew, and I can give the curator his phone number
I do not know such a thorough person and understand rabbinic families as Naftali
In my opinion, He is one of the best people in the world in this area, who living today

Haim Katz - Hachoen Wartski if you think someone knows more than what we have on Geni, go ahead and ask him if he has evidence for the father of the Maharral's maternal grandfather Chaim.

Private User, that's fine if there are sources no one has seen. Maybe you or someone else will find and review them someday. Until that day comes, we should sever the genealogy above Chaim because apparently no one on Geni can provide ANY source for it, and we don't even know where the information came from in the first place. We also know, based on more recent scholarship (see Putik's article) that much of the Maharal genealogy was very wrong.

Randy Schoenberg I agree completely.

I am adding the profile of Chaim's supposed father, Bezalel, so that it is also tagged in this discussion. I am proposing we cut the connection between Chaim and this Bezalel, for whom there seems to be no evidence.
Betzalel ben Yehuda Loew, [Maharal Gt.Gd.father?]

Randy Schoenberg
I have an article written by Naphtali Wakstein, about the Maharal of Prague, but refers to his grandparents ( from his father side ), if you are interested, I can send you the pdf file if you give me your email address

Haim Katz - Hachoen Wartski You can send to me at randols@bslaw.net, but we have the grandparents. The question is the great-grandfather etc.

To be clear, I am convinced that there is no source for the ancestry of the Maharal's grandfather Chaim as we now understand him, thanks to recent scholarship. I don't really need people to help me do more research on this issue. What I am asking is if anyone has already DONE the research and found some evidence for this lineage. I am pretty certain the answer is "No." But if you find something concrete, please let us know.

It would even be interesting to learn the source for the apparently invented lineage we have now on Geni. It was uploaded umpteen times and merged over the years, which is why there are so many managers on these profiles. It looks like Daniel Elliott Loeb was one of the first to upload it. And there is a reference to Aryeh Lifschuetz, Avoth Atarah le-Banim, Warsaw (1927) p. 163 and The ESKELES Genealogy by Zeev ESHKOLOT. If anyone wants to look those up to see what sources they cite, that would be nice.

A good description of some of the modern sources for the deep genealogies is at https://www.jewishgen.org/Rabbinic/journal/kdavid.htm. If anyone wants to go through all of them and see what they actually say about Chaim, the grandfather of the Maharal, please do so. I'm pretty confident you won't find any real sources identified.

Randy Schoenberg

I sent you the article that Naftali Wakstein wrote

Haim Katz - Hachoen Wartski I suppose you will find many genealogies from the past century that merely repeat various names, but we are looking for is an actual source, meaning some reference to an historical document or grave or other source. Similar to what Private User has done with the apparently unfounded legend that the Horowitz family came from Spain. As Putik proved in his 2009 article, the very old Pereles genealogy for the Maharal is filled with errors, which others unwittingly relied on. This is why it is so important for us to revisit the genealogies and review the sources.

I meant to add a link to Rabbi Marmorstein's article. See https://avotaynuonline.com/2016/03/does-the-horowitz-family-from-bo...

Randy Schoenberg I have EXTRAORDINARY respect for what you are trying to do. And, intellectually, it makes sense. But, because we are a people who have be forced from one land to the next, our histories lost to so many ravages in so many different times, may I suggest an alternative, a compromise? Why we adopt a symbol, maybe as simple as an asterisk, to place after the names and generations in question. We can note that "the documentation is not conclusive in this moment, and further research is needed to verify this relationship is correct." This may encourage further research, while creating agonies for the countless people who claim Davidic lineage, etc. This will reduce stress, but let people know that part of their tree may be more fantasy than legendary.

Thanks for make Geni an awesome community!
Peace,
Peter

Randy Schoenberg
Firstly, I apologize for my not so good English, hope my words are understood correctly.There are times when I want to be more correct, but I don't know how toexpress myself
Firstly, I very much appreciate that you brought this issue up for discussion.
As a descendant of the Maharal from Prague through both my grandmother and my grandfather (and I know for sure from my father), I know and understand the importance of the discussion and the sensitivity of this issue..
When there is a dispute and we do not know for sure what is true,
I support what
Private User
Suggested
Or, alternatively, write in the profiles (in the information about that person), that also has an alternative opinion and indicate what it is, and history and science (especially DNA testing) may be able to solve this issue in the future.
For Benbanishi family: I should note that when my father told me that we are descendants of the Halevi Horowitz family, he never mentioned the Benvenisti family.
I did know that we are a fully involved family: Ashkenazi, both Sephardic and MizrahiI.i didn't know exactly how, because when my father was alive I wasn't interested in it at all.but
If you look at my family tree you will see that all my family branches in recent generations have come to Poland, and this is how I feel: a Jew of Polish origin