John Perrot The Quaker Pope Converter His writings from Bedlam Prison

"No.
I'm still very interested in Dale Rice's story....

Not at all interested in what Maven thinks....:"

i'll fix that for you

"No.
I'm still very interested in what Dale Rice's thinks....

Not at all interested what actually happened..."

b/c all dale rice has are thoughts (saying there is a dna match doesn't make it so - linking t the raw data does).

i now wait to see if he breaks his recent promise to no longer comment and tell me i don't know what i'm talking about or try to debase me by acting like i don't have an advanced degree in this stuff.

tik, tik, tik...

clh, i think you have and have had room to do so. those of us in the "neighborhood" are merely pointing out that what dale says as fact is but his own speculation (speculation is fine, but state it as such, not gospel truth to meet one's own desire for some form of recognition, eg dale). stating something as a truth as he does, followed with a "look for yourself" w/o presenting anything to actually look at, is poor form at best. i, and i would imagine the others on here, hope you investigate for yourself. i think it's paramount to know truth from fetish.

drsjp

not an insul, simply a description of dale's devotion to his STORY in lieu of presenting (not merely stating/demanding) facts and truth

Merriam-Webster def.
Fetish -
1b: an object of irrational reverence or obsessive devotion : PREPOSSESSION
2 Fixation

both fit aptly in describing dale's devotion to his story in the light of actual facts which blow up his stories.

again, we want you to investigate the facts and dale's stories are not facts.

drsjp

Could it be that a man had a homonym, or a father 2 or 3 sons named the same ?

I had so much work connecting my own dymock line, it took 25 years, just because of two male dymocks named the same and born one year apart.

Have you tried to look if a person named this way didn't emigrate to france, or sweden, or germany before emigrating to the usa ?

Because sometimes, that's where the problem lies. You think they went from england, but not every british born lived in GB GB before emigrating and some ended up in virginia but did not arrive there at first..

Or some Dymock man who was forgotten for 10 years in swedish prison after Henry the 8th sent him to sort something out and he did not appear in genealogies. Totally forgotten.

And another dymock man who was ambassador in france under Louis the 14th and not appearing anywhere either because he was in france

Don't forget that Elizabeth 1's Dudley lost his life in spain. There might be dudleys in spain, or Rice. Have you considered emigration from spain and lines through spain after the war ?

de vere is my 1sr cousin, Wriothesley is my 2nd cousin, dudley is my 3rd cousinm all through significantly different lines. none of this amounts to much and has nothing to do with prince tudor theories (and yes, they predate dale's story). they are considered conjecture at best (note the presence of a medium in the statements of truth regarding pince tudor). and none of these relationships add any hint of truth to dale's rambling, oft incoherent (not an insult, an educated observation) diatribes on his mythical, glorious past. their interesting (mine are to me, but nothing beyond that), but no one gets a castle b/c of these relations & none of them offer any factual evidence in support of perrot being henry viii's son or whatever (he had an illegitemate son who he recognized, why not the other one?).

drsjp

Actually, i think the historical question is : did Elizabeth have hidden ctildren ?

i understand that that is the question/theory put forth by the prince tudor theorists. my point is that all of these interesting cousinhoods with people around her do not actually have any facts to add to the idea she had kids. my relation to de vere or dudley, or anybody around then doesn't change the fact that them being her lovers or kids or whatever is purely speculative and could only be confirmed through familial dna analysis (not dale's) from known descendants and/or family members (as currently there is no evidence that elizabeth had a kid so we need to go back up her tree before we can go down to living family for analysis). only then can we possibly confirm or deny (or neither if the results are inconclusive, as often happens) the theory that liz had any kids or henry had additional bastards.

sjp

When you look at Elizabeth's background and close associates, you find a number of reasons why she might have developed a phobia about sex and/or marriage. Her mother Anne Boleyn and her mother's cousin Katherine Howard lost their heads; her sister's mother, Katherine of Aragon, was treated absolutely vilely by her father (if she didn't know of it firsthand, she would have been sure to hear of it from sister Mary); stepmother Jane Seymour died in childbirth; stepmother Katherine Parr, ditto; sister Mary died of "female complaints" (possibly uterine cancer); and on the other hand ex-stepmother Anne of Cleves managed the rest of her life very well without any man.

So IMHO while she may have kissed and cuddled and fondled in dark corners (when she could find one), she would probably have drawn the line at Going All The Way. The risks were just too many and too obvious.

And what are we going to do with this thread now that it's totally free-form and disconnected from the alleged subject?

https://reviews.history.ac.uk/review/1609

“Elizabeth's Bedfellows: An Intimate History of Elizabeth's Court”

Gossip ...

No one seems to want to find more facts on John Perot, (c 1620 - 1665), so I suppose that story is closed.

I don't mind finding more facts, but I won't participate in speculation and gossip. If anything that is actually evidence shows up, I'm interested.

I think he should look for his Perrot on the continent just in case and see if there wasn't immigration from holland, or hamburg, or spain

What Dale needs to do is build up his mother's tree and - for now- forget about his father's. If he's going to find any Perrots, it will probably not be on his father's side.
(No matter what his father said!)

Quoting Private User "And what are we going to do with this thread now that it's totally free-form and disconnected from the alleged subject?"

You just let it die.

ok, one last time for those in the back.

it is a contribution to debunk false or unproven claims. by adding those stories/guesses/wannabe ancestral lineages, the tree becomes less accurate, more overly complex and a more challenging correction process for the curators. it isnt negative to demand actual facts to back up a claim/daddy tale that is repeated ad nauseam w/o corroboration beyond either "i said so" or "daddy told me, so it must be true". also, no one that i have noticed has said to stop researching (in fact, i have seen a generally positive encouragement to research to confirm or deny before claims are considered to be legit), but they do say to stop posting mere feelings about things instead of data. and if people appear to be getting a bit short w/ someone, its b/c that person has been demanding recognition and acceptance of facts that are not facts, but delusions of grandeur, for 8 years. again, not saying don't research, just saying don't push fairy tales as biography.

drsjp

Dr. Stephen John Pratt, Ph.D. True. I have been following so many of these threads and find my head spinning on tales and stories. I have learned so much from many of the curators here and a number of learned "volunteers" who dedicate so much of their time.

I think that DNA and some good hard research can get us farther than all the stories and fairytales we have listened to in our lives (and believe me as a child of the South growing up in the heartland of the colonies, I have heard the tales). It is nice we can corroborate one every now and again, but even nicer when we learn something new - especially the truth. As we approach Thanksgiving, I am thankful we have this place. The most wonderful thing is that most of us conversing here are related in some way and know how. So as with all family, we can have our "fiscussions" and work towards the common good. At least we are passionate about something. I am always thankful too for the sense of humor that shows. It makes life better.
Susanne

John ap Rice is Perrot ap Rice's brother. Any relationship between ap Rice of Tenby and Apreece of Brecknock would be very, very distant (and I leave it to Anne Brannen to puzzle it out).

If I’ve got this right, the common ancestor is Hywel Felyn ap Hywel — so yes, very distant.

Archbishop William Laud, who was mentioned in that very long copypaste, also messed with the heads of Establishment clergy and accelerated the process of splitting the Anglican (Episcopal) Church into three categories: High (very formal, very ritualized, "High and Crazy"), Low (informal, more free-form, "Low and Lazy") and Broad (in between and varying from parish to parish as to how much formality is included, "Broad and Hazy"). Which is interesting, but worthy of a discussion of its own.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Laud
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_church

Wikipedia references are just for general background, which I suspect is all anyone here really wants.

Thanks, Anne - yes that *is* a long way back.

By the way:

The “ap Rice” surname for John ap Rice comes from Sir Rhys ap Thomas, K.G., of Dynevor — the Apreecee family mentioned here gets it’s surname from Rhys ap Hywel, of Aberllynfi

Two completely different Rhyses, illustrating the point that not even all Welsh Rices/Prices/etc are closely related.

ANNE gave you the links - I was merely commenting on her findings.

Wow. This Conversation/Discussion has been informative, edifying, and educational. I've GREATLY (not trying to sound like Trump!) appreciated the Discussion when it's been Open: A learning experience. Thanks to all for bringing this into Light.

Too bad the discussion never had much to do with the title. Here's the bottom line:

This is Dale's 6th great-grandfather: John Rice, of Dedham

His parents, and the part of England he comes from, are unknown.