John Perrot The Quaker Pope Converter His writings from Bedlam Prison

Dale, how do you propose we work when the known facts don’t support your claims; or when there are simple & understandable mistakes made in your presentation?

I am in the position of having had to, in the past, work with other members who entered erroneous data into Geni based on your suppositions. It was not pleasant for either of us, and I’m just lucky that member and I already had a good working relationship.

What should I be doing to help make sure - please don’t enter into Geni what isn’t sourced and verified?

Here you are: St. Daffids Crisis in 16th century names William Barlow cousin of my 7th great grandfather Perrot ap Rice 1598 as part of an ongoing crisis in the church. Thus St. Daffids is a fair place to look for Perrot ap Rice in their records. DCR

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Barlow_(bishop_of_Chichester)

William Barlow is cousin of Perrot ap Rice and the Barlow family married a sister of Perrot ap Rice. It referrs to a monistary that was perhaps later dissolved by Henry VIII. The poit is that I surmised there had to be such a place and here it is. Score one For Dale's insights.

We are having a conversation: Not sourcing the beginning of time Ms. Howton. I said there had to be a place of learning for my named 7th great grandfather to learn to write and I just put up proof of such a place. Let's move on. This is not about me, it's about following the facts as clues....my mind is working just fine when I dont have to fend off personal attacks from MBH.

You can walk and chew gum at the same time so you just have to leave the questions you have in abeyance until I fill more of the mission pieces. You see MBH does not want me to fill in the pieces for you to understand. The places where my 7th great grandfather learned his skills seems to have been nearby at St. Daffids Priory....I believe if someone can find the rolls for the school ca 1608-28 we should find Perrot ap Rice son of Thomas Perrot Knight among them. Care to look? Fine I'll look for myself and report back.

Glad to see you saying that no one should be entering data into Geni profiles based on an investigation.

Maven now you lower yourself to attempt to intimidate me with Dales behavior? If you wish to threaten me, at least be Royal enough to do it yourself and not by proxy. As I said before the real proof a how strong Sang Royal flows in one is in one's conduct. I am QUITE CERTAIN Queen Elizabeth II would agree.

Dale C Rice
Geni "volunteer curators" disconnected me from most of my family lines despite overwhelming peer reviewed primary academic evidence and DNA evidence. It seems to me that to many people with to little education and to small lives and or egos feel they can dictate to their Kinfolk who does and does not belong on a tree. This is why I am doing my tree privately with my close kinfolk on Ancestry which incidentally is origin of most profiles here and on Wikitree

Maven WHAT ARE YOUR CREDENTIALS? Also if you REALLY want to show your tree skills why not clean up the Ancient Scandinavian tree. You seem to be a very controlling person with oodles of time on your hands, Exactly what that project needs.

In summary I think it is hideously bad behavior to try to dictate to another who they come from or what their origins are about. We are KINFOLK from ROYAL LINES OF DISTINCTION lets start acting like the best of them hmm?

This thread is dedicated to where and how my 7th great grandfather Perrot ap Rice 19598 learned to think a write theology and law. I have found before that his sister Elizabeth ap Rice was married to Thomas or William Barlow...but that has now been changed to another family name of Davids. In any event the Barlow name and St. Daffids Holds and that is where I will be looking to find Perrot's Name. It is unfounded to say on the file of Perrot ap rice that he died before his father in 1550. The last thing we know is that he left Wales owing a debt of some 640 pounds sterling to his uncle. Had he died as suggested he would have had a monument raised by his father for his first born. So just as GENI was wrong wrong wrong about Hester Harrington died young age 14....she married young. Thus Geni should removed that suggestion that Perrot ap Rice died before his father. He disappeared from Wales and that's all you can say because there is no marker anywhere showing that he died. DCR

cross posting above: Hear Hear Aislinn. My attitude is that I will find all the pieces eventually. Just as they rightly pointed out my initial thought of the Tudor Connection was the story of Harry/ ap Rice. Those years have shown that the boy raised in the household of Princess Mary Tudor which I brought to Geni's attention no one before or sense has held the BEATRICE FIGURE who was the Lavendar of Sir Rhys ap Thomas was demanded by King Henry to be his laundress and placed at Princess Mary Tudor's estates on the Welsh Marches became the lifelong servant to Queen Mary. I found those files. Other's here take credit because they have never posed the questions based upon insider information. I reasoned just as I have above that ap Rice Family would have deep Tudor Connections and so I went hunting for them. I found them at Gruffed ap Rice who was tasked with bringing the all the thousands of Horses for Field of Cloth of Gold...That's also been registered in my documanets file as I recall because i knew I would have to prove it. So I salute you and your efforts.... Ms Aislinn my own document is more or less completed based upon my findings I simply want the records to show I was here and what I found as means of HELPING others who may also be on the hunt for lost family. DCR

You can certainly place notes in a file as to what the findings are....I don't change any relationship file here at all ever. Pulling the linkages as some Curator's have done is a great diservice to down line descendants who may simply need a reference for their search. I have advocated all along since day one a category of file: suggests NOT PROVED. DCR

I’m glad to see you are a software developer now also, Dale. :)

For Aislinn - always a good policy to have personal trees. For Geni, we take a conservative approach; and any decision can of course be reviewed by public discussion from that profile.

For everyone - We have threads closed that disparage geni volunteer curators (you can see that icon C next to our name).

One warning only, for those who may not know this procedure. Dale, I do not appreciate your comments on curator work. We have over 200 worldwide for over 10 years, and our process is consistent: we do not support speculative relationships.

Ms. Aslinn for your bennefit: The world did not know until I presented this direct line that the heirs of the Chalfant Stewards at Windsor Castle received enough money from the Queen's bequest to faithful servants to buy 430 acres at Chester Penn. directly from William Penn when they both emigrated to America. This is the kind of INSIDER information which links Anne of Cleves J2a blood mt. DNA of Central Spain to each of my aunts and my sisters. The reason why is the Queen reportedly had children by Henry VIII and the were adoopted out to These Windsor Castle employees who were and are
cousins to Bessie Blount. I place it here for the world to know that the Queen hid the truth from the Lawyers sent to investigate and because they were twin girls the King gave her 30 properties he was so happy with her not interfering with his quest for Catherine
Howard. The Twins were born Sept 10, 1541 and she had all thirty properties by Jan 10 that same year. DCR 1948

https://www.geni.com/path/Richard-Chalfant+is+related+to+Mildred-Ri...

Warning Duly noted Ms. E.Howton. I simply have to say that when presented with a new way to think about such things, everyone including the Curators have to give way to the science of DNA and the statistical liklihood that DNA presents. I have championed that method and been soundly beaten in print for it. YET: despite my work on Cousin variables now that can be calculated depending on the size of test taken....those results have been expanded upon by GEDMATCH and they are now solving 50 year old crimes with the cousins of the PERPETRAITORS of those crimes. FYI the alleles are 3 to 2 sites on a 12 marker test. 6 alleles on 4 sites doubling with the size of each subsequent test. That's the results I found for my proved 1/2 brother, and 3rd cousin extrapolated to the cousins of Le Teuton de Sutton and his down line sons and their cousins. That was done in the year 2013...I have been notified by an agency that keeps track of such things that my work sent to Dr. Kayser PHD head of DNA at a research university in Netherlands Jan of 2013 has been cited over 400 times world wide. I am not a street urchin with grandiose ideas. My family retain the faces of Kings and Queens of France and England because my father chose my Mother from among 9 young women born to these descendants of Queen Anne of Cleves and I am looking for the exact Male line which conforms to the DNA on all our faces which are inherited by BREEDING BACK to the scion...who in this case is Henry Tudor...my 3rd cousin. It costs nothing to be polite and I am until you smear me and mine.

And if it’s shown, as has been on this discussion with several posts, that Anne of Cleves is not known to have had children, and at least one serious “investigator” presented, transparently, the rumor, it’s political origins, and the outcome, are we not to refute the claim?

Correction: Alison Weir now speculates in a novel that Ann had previously given birth.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/historians-new-novel-cont...

Dale, I think you have the rumor wrong.

“In December 1541, another report of seeming impropriety surfaced; this time, the rumor suggested that Anne “was in the family way by the King” and had perhaps even given birth to Henry’s son. After an extensive investigation, however, the Privy Council concluded that “the King had not behaved to her like a husband,” and it was not true that Anne had “gone away from London and had a son in the country last summer.” Still, Weir writes, “Although nearly all modern historians state categorically that [Anne] had not borne a child, the possibility remains that she had, [though] it was surely not the King’s.”

Anne’s own account of her marriage refutes the idea that she had any knowledge of carnal affairs. At one point during her brief queenship, Anne asked her ladies-in-waiting how she could “be a maid and sleep every night with the king.” In response, one woman made a joking remark about how more than simply sleep was required to produce a prince—to which the queen said, “When he comes to bed, he kisses me and taketh me by the hand and biddeth me, ‘Goodnight sweetheart’; and in the morning kisses me and biddeth me, ‘Farewell, darling.’ Is that not enough?” The Countess of Rutland had to explain, “Madam, there must be more than this, or it will be long ere we have a Duke of York” (the second son required to fulfill the ideal of an “heir and a spare”).

Read more: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/historians-new-novel-cont...
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I wouldn't have the Smithsonian as a gift. It has been coasting for far too long on its *former* reputation as a serious research magazine, but for years now it has been little better than a glorified scandal rag. The article referred to above is an unusually egregious example, with the "scandal" posted right at the top and the refutation way down at the bottom.

Historical novelists have always taken liberties with the facts, and always will, because "it makes a better story that way". And sometimes they just make stuff up so their work will sell better. (IMHO Alison Weir pulled her bit of scandal out of her ear.)

Erica Howton
I am from an area that has a good number of Plantagenets. I grew up a number of "Rices" they were and are good people who are very clever. When a "Rice" speaks I listen ditto for a Richardson, Mitchell or Knott

AS for Geni curators

I have found HUNDREDS of major errors in the Scandinavian profiles. The names there are grossly inaccurate. Your team spirit is admirable but falls short of the facts.

My own tree suffered a forest fire of disconnecting DESPITE DNA evidence AND records from BURKES PEERAGE and PRIMARY PEER REVIEWED ACADEMIC SOURCES that backed up my tree.

The plethora of bogus profile names esp in the Scandinavian trees. They display a profound ignorance of Norse Patronymic naming,.

The bogus profiles eg I found Budli av Norge in 7 places that placed him as a man and woman who had offspring for over 200 yrs

The lack of oversight, couples with the readiness to disconnect people at the drop of a hat and the acceptance of Wikpedia and Ancestry.com trees as primary sources.

You say Geni only has 200 volunteer curators globally for millions of profiles? I doubt you realized you admitted to a weakness and unfairness in Geni's basic business and academic model. You also admitted that Geni makes a lot of good money off YOUR and OTHERS FREE VOLUNTEER LABOR.

You see when it comes to academics, I give Geni a very poor rating. I do give them a full 5 stars for Business though. Make a fortune off other people's free labor! That is clever

Overall, what I see is very real historical people and their descendants being reduced to data, tropes and caricatures by a VOLUNTEER (not getting paid to boost Geni profit margins) staff who often times seem not know, respect or appreciate what they are doing has deep personal and emotional importance to tens and hundreds of thousands of their kinfolk. Do you even care? It often seems like BEING RIGHT is replacing compassion and respect for kinfolk. These are the reasons it is very difficult to take Geni seriously.

Oh and I do not take well to threats ban me if you like but keep in mind, you ban me for speaking the truth. P.S. I find it comical that you think I would care about being banned

May I remind everyone that the alleged "children" of Anne of Cleves were allegedly adopted in the 1540s.

William Penn lived in the 17th century, not the 16th. Pennsylvania was not established until 1681.

1541 to 1681 is 140 years.

That's when they came over....I did not say it happend at the same time. YOu are again trying to put words in my mouth that are not there. Lucy and Elizabeth died in England I don't know where Richard landed but he's our great Uncle....This is precisely how GENI get's stuff wrong. YOU don't listen.

You did *not* say "The world did not know until I presented this direct line that the heirs of the Chalfant Stewards at Windsor Castle received enough money from the Queen's bequest to faithful servants to buy 430 acres at Chester Penn. directly from William Penn when they both emigrated to America"?

Frankly, I get more logical sense out of "Old Man Mulligan":

I was born almost ten thousand years ago,
And there's nothin' in the world that I don't know;
I saw Peter, Paul and Moses,
Playing ring-around-the-roses
And I'm here to lick the guy what says 'tain't so.

(source: "American Songbag", collected by Carl Sandburg, published 1927)
https://www.npr.org/programs/atc/features/2004/sep/zanes/lyrics.html

Aislinn, I don’t know why you’re “yelling” at me about errors in the Scandinavian tree. I have little to do with it, as a member or a curator. I am familiar with naming conventions thanks to the kind educational efforts of those who do know. The same applies to my knowledge of all the languages in use on Geni: if I can’t do it right in French, for instance, I ask someone with a better language skill to enter the names.

Since I don’t “work” for Geni I have little to say about that, either. The model is collaborative, membership is tiered, and that means that a variety of skill levels are in effect. Surely the way to work that out is for those who know more, and / or know more about using the platform, to help those less experienced?

Yes, agree, there are not enough members (don’t need to be curators) doing academic level genealogy. I hope you are one, as that enhances the trees for everyone.

I was specific in saying that we close discussions that disparage volunteers. That’s not “banning”, which is a tool used mostly for “vandalism” such as “blanking out” names from profiles.

I hope this clarifies.

Aislinn can you give examples about Scandinavian trees in Geni? I am from here North Europe and we ae known for to concentrate a lot for adding sources, so when you see profiles that need fixing, please start discussion. There are many on going projects and not always enough hands. So welcome to improve results, where you see errors. That is the only way to work here in Geni world tree.

Thank you, Saga. I think Aislinn has started a couple of discussions without response as yet. It is very hard to keep everything in order!

Erica you do work for Geni you just do not get paid

Sorry, that’s not what my contract says.

But you’re making it about me. This is not about me, it’s about genealogy.

Wicki Tree now shows the Tudor Linkage at 20 degrees of seperation. My new linkages at Anne Stuebbs-Codrington-Ralph Marsh and Perrot ap Rice will shorten that to 10 or 11 degrees of seperation. Don't especially care if you agree or not MBH. The newest linkage for the Family of Powhattan princess 1/2 sister to Pocohauntus is at my Captain Spencer anne Norville, 8th great aunt. Anne being the grand daughter of Powhattan Rachael Crowshaw. This marks the first proved line of N.A. blood to Collins, Cookston Rice. fyi.
Anne Norvell

Anne Norville is my 8th great Aunt. Since this woman is now proved at Family Tree 4.3% on family finder then it's not too far a stretch to understand that Pocohauntus married to my 5th cousin John Rolfe got land near the Rapids on the James River near Necketie and John RICE HUGHES. Now connected by Blood at the Hughes brothers x 9 links and the Adkins family and the John Rice Mary 1610 aquisition on the James River as I was told in 1978....You are simply blinded by your HUBRIS Ms. Helms. And Now I can publish the findings elsewhere and prove it in my FAMILY Book. PS: Perrot ap Rice used his Brother's name John while trading in Virginia using the ship salvadged in August 1629 aka as the Sparrow...registred by the English Admiralty to John Perrot. James Perrot a down line ancestor has contacted me as well....he's the down line ofPrunella Perrot John Perrot Daniel Gookins line: Guess what his Haplogroup is????? YEP I-1 M253. Where have you heard that before Miss Helms? You heard it right here where I brought every single person of note in the family: Wiliam ap Rice son of Rhys ap Thomas and Beatrice 1521 birth of William/Harry. His cousin William ap Rice 1522 son of John Rice ap Rhys ap Thomas linking to Gruffed ap Rice and Griffeth 1508. John Peratt II 1565 oxinesis at Greys Inn....all brought here for discussion and now PROOF. It's okay, the vetting process was worth every insult hurled at me by you and others along the way proving to me at least that the Patience of informed outlasts the speculation and changes made to history by those who simply refuse to confront a reality they are not intellectually prepared to receive as TRUE. DCR 1948

https://www.geni.com/path/Rachel-Croshaw-of-the-Powhatan+is+related...:

//Anne Norvell?

Dale C. Rice

I’m a Little confused.

1st, this profile’s Origins are not firm as per the curator note:

“Rachel” Croshaw, of the Patawomeck

Second, I’m not seeing a direct line to you.

I see Rachel (Matachanna) Croshaw, of the Powhatan is Elizabeth (Spencer) Baubeau's stepmother's grandfather's partner.

https://www.geni.com/path/Elizabeth-Baubeau+is+related+to+Rachel-Cr...

And I see Dale C. Rice is Elizabeth (Spencer) Baubeau's 7th great grandson

But the possible connection to the Powhatans is not blood.

Anne Norville is Spencer and grand daughter of Rachel, Anne Norville is my 8th great Maternal Aunt. The next exciting find is the Bacons who are in Dedham Ma. 1630. Michael Bacon is n ow listed by DNA as my3rd to 5th cousin and I traced him John Rice II. Here. This bacon line is cousin to Sir FRancis Bacon as I looked at it earlier today.

https://www.geni.com/path/John-Rice-II+is+related+to+Michael-Bacon-... today.

at the risk of being suspended...

if you want people to take you conjectures seriously, actually include data and/or links to normalized data (graphs, allele comparison charts, familial band comparison, anything beyond "i traced it" b/c a priori, that has no value.

also, try to explain things clearly and in english. "anne norville is spencer", etc. You sound like yoda's downs-syndome little brother. also, my "x"th cousin "may have" learned "X" at the nearby "X", is not a statement of fact (it is barely a statement of anything). It is conjecture based on possibly data not shown. it isn't referencing the construction of a super-collider to back up claims as enormous as henry viii extra son (by the way, why did a serial polygamist all of the sudden disown a son for his dalliances?). bottom line, virtually none of your "findings" could be cobbled together in any manner that would render them as an acceptable research work.

i now fully expect the same rehashed "my proved x ggf" stories (all they are) without any substantiation beyond "i traced" or "family tree now says 4%", ... of what? i may know what the numbers are supposed to mean (without references, its speculation and wild unrequited desire for "bragging rights" of multiple lines of ancestry to royalty. (i am the great grandson of william the conqueror 9 times, through nine different avenues - know what that makes me? nothing more than i was 5 seconds before i found out that detail). we are all here to find our roots, not make up our roots to compensate for our deeply felt insecurities.

bring the pain