Gruffydd ap Cynan - Merger of 2 Gruffydd ap Cynan needed?

Forget Wikipedia. Please review the Wolcott articles I have posted in the About Me section for EACH of the two Gruffudd ap Cynan(s). If you give me a specific person you feel is missing, I will research it, but we have taken great pains to delineate the two cousin lines.

OK, thanks, I will take a closer look. So many similar connections and names I thought they were same chap. Must recycle a lot of names in Welsh families...

Yes, names get used quite often. Please be very careful in the Welsh tree!

Very true Martin, and some of the same name strings are quite long, and sometimes involving more than 2 cousin lines.

Martin, if you follow the lines you can see where (mostly) Steven and I have been working. Steven has been adding links to Darrell Wolcott's studies; I have been adding links to Peter Bartrum's notes, since the actual books are out of print.

The Welsh genealogy is extremely difficult, and the medieval manuscripts contradict each other.

Bartrum is the gold standard because he did the most to unravel and untangle the manuscripts; Wolcott has been working on the tangles that Bartrum didn't get to.

Wow, you sound like you are on top of things, I've found other Geni links that were less confident of their results, and have merged content per my insights as an analyst. I'll follow the bouncing ball on this one and get it sorted out. Thanks for the feedback!

Oh, my very dear. We are not completely on top of the Welsh tree! But we have made great headway in our projects.

Enjoy!

Question, does ap and ab mean the same thing, and is it always "son of" or can it be from the family of, as in ap Owain could mean Owain is a more famous grandfather to celebrate my lineage?

I've seen some listings that use ap and ab in the same thread, like Cynan ap Owain ab Gruffydd... and statements that some ap's list grandfather instead of the usual "son of". Wondering if this complicates things?

Ab and ap are the same thing; it's "ab" before a vowel.

They mean "son of." After the Welsh were legally required to use the English surname system (early 16th C), some of them used the "ap" construction, and simply carried it on. So after that, you see people using a surname like "ap Rhys," or "ap Rice," even though their father wasn't named Rhys. And certainly not Rice. And you see women using the construction too. (On the other hand, in rural areas, many Welsh families kept the patronymic system for centuries.)

But before 1500 (except for the families that married into the Marcher lords, or families that were city dwellers with a great deal of work with the English), it's patronymics. Ap fof son of and ferch or verch for daughter of.

"Cynan ab Owain ap Gruffudd" means "Cynan, the son of Owain, who was the son of Gruffudd," and is in no way confusing.

If anyone is using "ap" to mean "in the family of" or "grandson of," they are using it wrongly.

Excellent info. Perfect. Thanks Anne!

You are quite welcome. Get the professors started, and it's hard for us to stop! Question away!