Query on Salomon Meir Worms, zum Buchsbaum, zum Hasen dates

Started by Leanne M (Volunteer Curator - Australia) 🇦🇺 on Tuesday, October 8, 2019
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Salomon Meir Worms, zum Buchsbaum, zum Hasen and Gutlin Worms are on Geni as being born in 1540 however they married in 1529 and had children
* 1510-1515 Isaac Grotwohl
* 1520 Seligmann Juda Selkele Worms-Grotwol, zum Hasen

Either the dates are incorrect or the connections are incorrect.

Can anyone add any information on this family?

10/8/2019 at 2:31 PM

Birth date obviously wrong and invented. Thanks.

I am working with Nancy High on this area but may need to wait until after yom kippur to finish up. In case you want to try to figure it out, here are the emails.

Randy

From: "Nancy High" <hitzel@att.net>
Subject: Some more substantial progress
Date: October 7, 2019 at 3:35:15 PM PDT
To: "'E Randol Schoenberg'" <randols@bslaw.net>
Cc: <Thomas.High@verizon.net>

Dear Randy,

Well, we found two more clues, neither of which helps hugely, but which have facilitated a revised theory about Brendel.

First of all, we realized that Brendel (or the two Brendels) would be called “Brendel z Buchsbaum” regardless of whose wife or widow she was. This, unfortunately, leaves a great deal of room for error in identifying the person meant in any given record. We see the reference (for instance, “gw. 1562”) but can’t be sure whether what Ettlinger has seen in person is “Brendel, widow of Judman” or merely “Brendel of the Buchsbaum”. So it means we can’t make any assumptions without seeing an actual quote from the record.

But, on the brighter side, the Gerichtsbuch record of 1561 which spoke of “Breinlin, Beer juden z Buchsbaums Weib und Mendlin z Knoblauch, deren Kind” was apparently followed in 1562 by a Gewaltbuch record specifying that she is sister-in-law to Jacob aus Schweinfurt (Schweinfurt had had a pogrom in 1555, so they presumably do mean “aus” rather than “zu”). This bolsters greatly the idea that the 1561 record dealt with some sort of inheritance, especially since Ettlinger says that the Gewaltbuch contains a very large proportion of will and estate records. So the idea would be that someone had died around 1560/61 and that Brendel (or at least “her child” Mendel) was inheriting something, and that the 1562 record deals with some conflict or agreement involving (another heir?) Jacob aus Schweinfurt. The wording in the first record sounds very much like it came from a will written back when Mendel actually was a child, unless is merely means offspring, or even ward. The idea of Mendel being Brendel’s ward is extremely tantalizing, because it would allow everything to fit so nicely. If she were a young widow of Isaac Bacharach of Lauchheim, she could have brought her stepson, the Orphan Mendel, with her to Frankfurt when she married whomever she married in the Buchsbaum, and it would explain why there seem to be absolutely no descendants of Mendel named Brendel/Breinle.

And the realization (belated, I’m afraid) that Judman Buchsbaum’s wife, Brendel, was the mother of all three of his children adds a little extra help. She would be giving birth to these children between about 1548 and 1558, and, if she is the same person as Natan Satan’s wife, would also be mother to his daughter, Gutle, who was born about 1564/68. For her to also have been the mother of Mendel, who was born before 1532 and probably before 1525 is a huge stretch. But if, instead, she was his young stepmother, who had him in tow when she arrived in Frankfurt……

The only really sad thing is that (Abraham) Samuel Bacharach (1575-1615) not only can’t be a son of Brendel but also can’t be a son of Mendel’s father Isaac Bacharach of Lauchheim.

But I think we’ve now got the Brendel situation analyzed as closely as it can be (ad nauseam, probably), pending discovery of new or more complete documentation, i.e. that there was only one Brendel, that she was Mendel’s extremely young mother or, better, step-mother, and that she was Judman Buchsbaum’s widow when she married Natan Satan. I still can’t explain why she isn’t marked as old on her gravestone nor why she and Mendel are not buried near each other (although the stepmother theory is helpful with that as well). I spent most of the afternoon searching through the records on the website of the Frankfurt Institut fuer Stadtgeschichte – such an amazing source!! – but found no help on this particular matter.

So I’m moving back to Prague. Oh, by the way, I don’t think you wlll be receiving any more giant clips from me. It seems that if I create a text box first, the clip is cooperative and stays small.

Nancy

From: "Nancy High" <hitzel@att.net>
Subject: A little progress
Date: October 6, 2019 at 12:59:17 PM PDT
To: "'E Randol Schoenberg'" <randols@bslaw.net>
Cc: <Thomas.High@verizon.net>

Dear Randy,

Well, there is not a great deal to report, although every time I look at the Andernact extracts I am completely blown away by the amount of information they contain. And, of course, one can’t ever rely on the absence of something as proof that it did not exist, but it is important to note that Semmel of the Buchsbaum and of Duerrwangen just doesn’t get mentioned at all, and since his orphans end up living with Beer in the Buchsbaum, I have to believe Semmel’s wife would have been mentioned somewhere if she had lived in Frankfurt at all.

In addition to this, there is a problem with my idea that Brendlin HO 342 did not die at an old age, because she seems to have done so. I can still say, however, that she doesn’t seem to be elderly enough to be the mother of a man who died at a very old age 3 years later. Anyway, my argument is weaker than it was before.

In terms of timing, the death of Judman Buchsbaum and the apparent re-marriage of Natan Satan to Brendlin HO 342 dovetail perfectly, Judman having died about 1558 and Natan’s first wife having died sometime before 1564. Brendlin marries Natan before 1568 and probably several years earlier than that.

Everything hinges on the 1561 reference from the Gerichtsbuecher, and Tom has been helping me narrow down in what way the brief wording reflects the possible subject matter. The fact that Brendel/Breinchen is mentioned first and described as “Beer’s” weib followed by the words “her offspring” makes one think it is a record pertaining to her, through her first husband, and her son – perhaps a debt or an agreement, or, even more likely, an inheritance from some member of her own family which is coming to her and her son, but not to her present husband. But the biggest problem is that at least one item in the quote has to be incorrect. The four items are: her name, her marital status, her husband’s name, and the year. We know that the year and the husband’s name are mutually exclusive, because by 1561 both Judman (her likely husband) and Beer have died before that time. Unless the year was supposed to have been 1551, in which case the document could pertain to Mendel’s move to his new home, the Knoblauch. Also mutually exclusive are the word “weib” (not wittwe) and the year 1561, for the same reasons. And as we worked on it, we realized that, short of actually finding the document, the best we can do is to say that the Brendel who had been married to someone who lived in the Buchsbaum (presumably Judman, whose wife was definitely named Brendel) was the mother by a previous marriage of Mendel of the Knoblauch.

I’m going to do some more searching and some more math. Could Mendel possibly have been married at the age of 12 or 13 in 1548, enabling his mother to still bear children in 1560? I guess it is possible. And I would dearly love there to be only one Brendel and not two……

Anyhow, more comments will follow tomorrow morning. I know you absolutely can’t wait…

Nancy

From: "Nancy High" <hitzel@att.net>
Subject: Breinles and Brendles, Buchsbaums and Bacharachs
Date: October 4, 2019 at 11:43:10 AM PDT
To: "'E Randol Schoenberg'" <randols@bslaw.net>

Dear Randy,

Rabbi Abraham Samuel is fine because all of the dates work for his son, (Moshe) Samson being raised by Chawa’s brother, Chaim. The part of the timing which doesn’t work at all, however, is that he could be brother to Mendel, who is two generations older, dying at a very old age when Abraham Samuel was just 24. So there are two different Isaac Bacharachs who are their fathers. Mendel’s is definitely Isaac of Lauchheim. I don’t know who Abraham Samuel’s is, but, of course, he could easily be from Lauchheim, too. And if one wanted to argue that there was an Isaac Bacharach who fathered the one son in, say, 1525 and the other in 1575 that would be rendered impossible by the fact that Mendel’s son, Isaac Lutz Lindwurm, the namesake of Mendel’s father, is getting married in 1578 and has to have been born before 1565, ten years before the birth of Abraham Samuel.

I had hoped to find some difference in the honorifics for the two Isaacs, but unsuccessfully. Abraham Samuel’s entry in (my copy of) the Worms Memorbuch says approximately this: “rabbinu Abraham Shmuel bn r’ Itschak (this is haRav mhr"r Shmuel, father of haGaon haRav rabbinu Samson, who also held the same position as his late father, and who also was Rabbi of the congregation for 20 years and who also was written into the sefer zicharon where his name will be found) 1615.” And Mendel’s father is described in the same, simple way, “r’Itschak”. So no help there.

But to focus on what Ettlinger knew about Mendel, who did, after all, spend all or most of his life in Frankfurt: The pivotal record, proving that Mendel’s mother was named Brendel, is apparently a Gerichtsbuch record from 1561 speaking of “Breinlin, Beer juden z Buchsbaums Weib und Mendlin z Knoblauch, deren Kind”. This is quoted in the Knoblauch house section and referenced in a couple of other places. But the problem with this is that absolutely ALL it tells us with certainty is that Mendel’s mother was named Breinlin/Brendle and that she had lived in the Buchsbaum. This is a secular record, and names were often incorrect, especially when the main person in a certain house (in this instance Beer of the Buchsbaum) was known to the officials writing the document. And since Beer had died in 1557 giving the impression of leaving a widow named Minke, Breinlin can’t be his widow as well.

So the options are A) that Breinlin/Brendel had been married to Beer’s son, Judman, who in at least one record is called “Beer Judman” (and this is a Gewaltbuch record, cited on Judman’s ET sheet, with reference to his wife Brendel), which could account for the name Beer in the record, or B) that Beer’s son, Semmel, who was in and out of Frankfurt (using the Buchsbaum as his home when he was in town) and had married someone in the early 1530s by whom he had at least five sons, had at some point re-married to the widow Breinle, who moved into the Buchsbaum with her son, Mendel. This is lent credence by the fact that when Semmel dies in the 1550s, Mendel is one of the guardians for his minor sons. And in either case Breinle would have still lived in the Buchsbaum until she re-married (if she did) or moved into the Knoblauch with her son, which could be what the 1561 record is dealing with. Or not. I wish we knew the content of that record! We already know she had been married previously to Isaac Bacharach, so all we need to do is find out whether option A or option B fits better. In either case, she would be a daughter-in-law of Beer Buchsbaum, rather than his wife. Incidentally, Semmel’s children are, in several cases, incorrectly described as Beer’s children, so it is not a great stretch for Breinlin to be described incorrectly as Beer’s wife.

With regard to the other Brendlin/Breinlin: She is HO 342 and Epidat ffb-3205, and died in 1596 at a relatively young age. She cannot possibly be the mother of Mendel, who died at a very old age 3 years later. She is shown in Ele Toldot as if she were the same person as Mendel’s mother, however, and is described as the wife of Isaac Bacharach, then Beer Buchsbaum, and then Beer’s grandson Natan Satan. As shown above, the first of these cannot apply to this younger Brendlin. The second is possible, if unlikely, but only if the third is incorrect. But the third one is actually very likely. Natan died at a young age in 1575, presumably leaving a widow, who could be this Brendlin. Natan is one of the older sons of Semmel Buchsbaum and was not one of the minors who were placed under guardianship in the 1550s. But the guardians for those minors were Kalman Kalman Cahn and Mendel of the Knoblauch. Ettlinger describes the usual criteria for choosing guardians, and this choice at first seems odd. But under option B) above, Mendel is likely to be their step-brother (or even half-brother) and Kalman should be another relative. Kalman’s wife, Roeslin HO 348, daughter of Uri Bacharach, is a sister of the father of the younger Brendlin (i.e. Ascher Lemle Bacharach of Burgau). Roeslin died in December of the same year as Brendlin, as a very old lady.

In conclusion, we are faced with the need to confirm that the Brendlin/Breinle, who was Mendel’s mother and who was mentioned in the 1561 Frankfurt record, had been married to Semmel Buchsbaum and to see if she died in Frankfurt (which is likely but not definite). We also need to find more conclusive proof that the younger Brendlin/Breinle was married to Natan Satan and, hopefully, to establish that she had been married previously to Natan’s uncle Judman Buchsbaum. In addition to reviewing all the data hidden in various parts of Ele Toldot, the many, many Andernacht entries on these folks should be checked. Fortunately, we know all of the citation numbers, and it is just a question of reading them and watching for any mention of Brendle or Mendel or for anything which shows that these theories are or are not viable.

I’ll get right on it ;-)

All the best

Nancy

From: "Nancy High" <hitzel@att.net>
Subject: Grotwohls, Stiefels, and orphans
Date: October 2, 2019 at 2:24:59 PM PDT
To: "'E Randol Schoenberg'" <randols@bslaw.net>
Cc: <Thomas.High@verizon.net>

Dear Randy,

Here is Seligman (Selkele) Grotwohl along with his daughter, Sprinze, her husband, Abraham Stiefel, Abraham’s father (one of my very favorite people) Mendel Orphan, and Mendel’s father and son, both named Isaac.

Mendel seems to have grown up in the Buchsbaum, probably under someone’s guardianship, and got the moniker Mendel Jotem (orphan). He was definitely son of Isaac Bacharach and possibly a woman named Brendel. But there are two Brendels, both of whom have multiple marriages including one each in the extended Buchsbaum family, and also Bacharach (Lauchheim or Burgau) connections. I have not yet been able to find out where the wrong turn was made, but I think it was some document calling Mendel’s mother Brendel. Or not. Anyway, the Brendel Ele Toldot shows as his mother is the wrong one, but I don’t want to put the other one in (nor anyone else) without really substantial documentation.

But what is just wonderful is that this Mendel has descendants in Alsace who have taken Jotem as their name and tie themselves in knots trying to figure out where the name came from. But it isn’t “Jotham” or anything biblical, as far as I can tell. It is just Orphan. You have to love things like this.

I’ll send some more tomorrow.

Nancy

No rush, just noticed it and knew something was wrong

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