Dale C. Rice Maternal links to English Power Familieshttps://www.geni.com/path/Dale-C-Rice+is+related+to+Ralph-Neville-1st-Earl-of-Westmorland?from=6000000013463839522&path_type=blood&to=6000000001069437500

http://www.tudorwomen.com/?page_id=675

BARBARA FULLER (d.1588+)
Fuller is probably the maiden name of Barbara Rice, wife of William Rice of Herefordshire (d. July 29, 1588), to whom she was married by 1553. They had no children, or at least none that survived, and little is known about them prior to the accession of Queen Mary. Rice was made a gentleman of the privy chamber and Barbara served as a chamberer from 1553-1557. On November 7, 1553, for good service, the queen granted them the manors of Backnoe in Thurleight, Bedfordshire and Medmenham, Buckinghamshire. Later they were granted manors in Kent and Somersetshire. Rice withdrew from court after Elizabeth Tudor took the throne. In 1561, he was imprisoned in the Tower for hearing mass. He made his will on July 22, 1588 at Chipping Wycombe, naming Barbara one of his executors. He had already settled the manor of Medmenham on his nephew, another William Rice.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Privy_chamber

A privy chamber was the private apartment of a royal residence in England.
The Gentlemen of the Privy Chamber were noble-born servants to the Crown who would wait and attend on the King in private, as well as during various court activities, functions and entertainments. In addition, six of these gentlemen were appointed by the Lord Chamberlain, together with a peer, and the Master of the Ceremonies, to publicly attend to all foreign ambassadors.[citation needed] Their institution was owed to King Henry VII. As a singular mark of favour, they were empowered to execute the King's verbal command without producing any written order; their person and character being deemed sufficient authority.

——

Notice: noble-born.

The son of a laundress was by definition not noble born.

Beatrice is referred to here:

https://archive.org/details/privypurseexpen00maddgoog/page/n445

That Queen Mary paid for education of “various” children of her household servants is noted here:

https://archive.org/details/privypurseexpen00maddgoog/page/n144

Yes: I recall that now. I could not then reconcile the two stories then or now. It seems to me that the Beatrice ap Rice Lavendar scooped up by Henry VIII after the Field of Cloth of Gold is the William who married Barbara Fulde. At this point I can't tell which is which. Glad you found that resource I certainly could not have found it Ms. Erica. DCR

So then you know that Gruffed ap Rhys ap Thomas the son of Father Rhys ap Thomas of Bosworth was sworn to serve Prince Arthur as his liege and became more than friends? Gruffed was tapped by Henry VIII to take care of the Kings and Queens Horses, some 5,000 in all for the Field of Cloth of Gold. This is a most telling piece because it shows how deeply connected Henry VIII was to Father Rhys ap Thomas and his wife....who took BEATRICE their Laundress to the Field of Cloth of Gold. Henry VIII spotted her placed her into HIS Service always close at hand for his Lavendar Service. That's why I think the King had more in mind that his Laundry and paid for the boy William/Harry ap Rice full tution at Durham Priory according History of Parliment on line. Does that connection not read Paramour to the King? It did to me in 2012 and it still does. DCR

Onward: The Rice Family of JOhn Rice of Dedham is most assuredly not Paternally descended from Edmund 1594. We await results from my cousin 8 x removed descended from Elizabeth Frost-Henry RIce/ Whale to see if there is any linkage discernable between us. As stated previously I traced the daughters of daughters to Senator Orin Hatch's mother of Utah and thus I have about 12 names in the sucession....hopefully we can find a descendant to compare notes. I did the same for Anne Boleyn back at least 5 generations to know who the mother's mothers are in both cases. They are part of the 500 pages of notes I took over the past8-9 years. Simply to say this....I have followed the DNA wherever it leads and I expect it to bare the Truth out in this story handed off to me. The Chips will fall where they may and I will abide by those findings as I have been encouraged by the Y findings so let the FAMILY FINDER results yield the hoped for results if only for the last 5 generations or so. DCR

Thanks Barbara Denham for your contributions to the thread. You are more than welcome to ask anything you like of me. I won't be going into the Virginia line for a while it seems. DCR

A piece of useful advice from Dan Corntt (on another thread):

---------------------------------------------------

One of the better ways I've found to 'untangle' potential messes is to start with the "known good" (or known-accurate) profiles at the "edges" of potential confusion. It can be either at the "top" (older) or at the "bottom" (more recent), but the more recent profiles are often more likely to have support documents & records. Then work from there.

Another tip is to look at whole families, not just direct lineages. Often the siblings and their spouses can provide good 'checks' for consistency to help "sort-out" confusions which might arise from same-name lineages and contemporaries.

-------------------------------------------------------------

The William Rice who was the son of Beatrice and Dafydd ap Rice, and the William Rice MP who married Barbara Fuller, are two different people.

William the son of Beatrice and Dafydd did not become a Member of Parliament. He became a wine steward, which is a responsible household position but still very much "below the salt" (as the old saying goes).

It may be tempting to mash them together, since William MP has neither known antecedents nor known children - but don't. do. it. William MP sat "above the salt".

Dale, you are conflating “laundresses.”

The cloth of Gold story refers to Joanne Dingley: Joane Dobson

Beatrice, wife of David ap Rice of Queen Mary’s household, is a different person.

The old "above/below the salt" saying comes from the medieval tradition of placing a salt cellar in the middle of a long able and seating one's guests according to rank: gentility and up above the salt cellar, commoners and servants below it.

We can blame the Tudor Women site for listing Barbara (Fuller) Rice right above Beatrice (unknown) ap Rice. :):)

That’s all it is. An alphabetical listing on the internet.

Table (grrr typoes)

I caught a glimpse of a John Rice of Amersham in Bucks in the Visitations of Buckinghamshire; I was looking at the Saunders families for Thomas Saunders & William the nephew, but can’t seem to put it together. Anyway a Rice family of Bucks would be logical for the MP.

Dale, I am having trouble with this statement from you:

“So then you know that Gruffed ap Rhys ap Thomas the son of Father Rhys ap Thomas of Bosworth was sworn to serve Prince Arthur as his liege and became more than friends? Gruffed was tapped by Henry VIII to take care of the Kings and Queens Horses, some 5,000 in all for the Field of Cloth of Gold. This is a most telling piece because it shows how deeply connected Henry VIII was to Father Rhys ap Thomas and his wife....who took BEATRICE their Laundress to the Field of Cloth of Gold. Henry VIII spotted her placed her into HIS Service always close at hand for his Lavendar Service. That's why I think the King had more in mind that his Laundry and paid for the boy William/Harry ap Rice full tution at Durham Priory according History of Parliment on line. Does that connection not read Paramour to the King? It did to me in 2012 and it still does. DCR”

Some bits of it are true. Gruffudd ap Rhys was indeed in service to Prince Arthur, and they did indeed become good friends.

Also, Gruffudd did indeed attend the Field of Cloth of Gold. And his father Rhys ap Thomas was also at the Field of Cloth of Gold.

Fair enough.

What is your evidence, however, that Rhys took his laundress Beatrice with him? Or, rather, that Beatrice, the wife of David ap Rice, was laundress to Rhys ap Thomas? Or that Henry VIII saw her there? Or that it was he who hired her as Princess Mary’s laundress? The king is highly unlikely to have been hiring laundresses tor his daughters. She was NOT close at hand as his laundress. She was Princess Mary’s laundress. These are separate households.

I gather that this conjecture is meant to be a story explaining how the King got interested in the laundress, though really if we are going to assume that the King DID get interested in a laundress it was because he saw her when he was visiting his daughter.

But even that doesn’t make much sense. Landresses worked in a different piece of the household than the one the princess was hanging out in.

At any rate.

Even if I were to accept the Beatrice Doing Laundry In A Comely Fashion At The Field Of Cloth Of Gold story, it still doesn’t explain why, in a highly examined and highly storied and highly vexed piece of history — that being the issue of who are the children of Henry VIII — there is NOT A TRACE of the illegitimate child by the laundress Beatrice story, except according to you.

That I don’t buy.

There are many many historical rumors about Henry’s illegitimate children. But this is not one of them.

Oh, I see that one of the things you are doing is conflating Beatrice Gardiner and Beatrice, the wife of David ap Rice.

Beatrice was a very common name.

Lots of women were laundresses.

What was the evidence that these women are the same? I seem to have missed it.

Anne, Erica has explained that there were two different women and the story of one has gotten mis-attached to the other.

Joane Dobson bore a daughter (not a son) out of wedlock, acknowledged by John Malte but suspected in later generations of having been fathered by Henry VIII. (The chronology doesn't work for her to have anything to do with the Field of the Cloth of Gold, though.)

Beatrice ap Rice was laundress to Henry VIII's daughter Mary, starting when the little Princess was just three years old and continuing through Mary's lifetime. (The arrangements for the Field of the Cloth of Gold were extensive and elaborate, and if Beatrice was there at all it was probably among the *Queen's* servants, not the King's.)

Well then why are we still hearing about the Field of Cloth of Gold and Beatrice the wife of David ap Rice.

But as I say.

Even failing that particular annoying story, things are still making no sense.

No evidence that Henry VIII and Beatrice The Laundress Who Sadly Did Not Get To Go To The Field Of Cloth Of Gold had anything to do with each other.

And nobody seems to have thought that Beatrice’s son was Henry’s, until the 20th century.

No. Just no.

“Beatrice Doing Laundry In A Comely Fashion At The Field Of Cloth Of Gold ...” should be a song!

The opportunities for entanglements in flapping yards of ... silk? They didn’t wash the silks, did they?

It really doesn’t look washable.

https://www.needlenthread.com/2007/02/medieval-textiles-what-is-clo...

https://www.rct.uk/collection/405794/the-field-of-the-cloth-of-gold Nice painting, and they say it’s accurate. I don’t see any “lavendars” being comely.

Maybe up in the sky with the dragon?

Ladies we have not spoken about my family and issues for about 3 years or more. The complete story of the Beatrice Figure belonging to Rhsy ap Thomas and taken to to field of Cloth of Gold is in the same History of Parliment on line. I didn't dream her up I read about her service to Rhys ap Thomas and his wife. Obviously Beatrice was made Laundress to Princess Mary Afterward. Anyway...I did not coflate Beatrice and Joan Dingley Dobson...who gave up her interest in Audrey/Ethelralda to John Mault. They are distinct stories and found them on line. Both seperate Anne. Anyway this is no longer productive for me and I will check out until I get further DNA from Family Tree. DCR

https://www.geni.com/discussions/125884?msg=886395

Erica Howton — thanks.

Lordy.

And note the *date*, if you will!

I just backtrailed this entire Discussion trying to find the "complete story of the Beatrice figure" in "the same History of Parliament on line". No luck.

References to the rise of the Rices of Newton under Sir Rhys ap Thomas, yes.

No mention of the Field of the Cloth of Gold under any ap Rhys, Price, or Rice.

Passing mention of Beatrice ap Rhys as a longtime servant of Queen Mary, under William Rice of Medmenham, relating to the question of the Queen's alleged dying words and who she supposedly said them to.

Presumably Dale read the story *somewhere*, and swallowed it whole and uncritically - but it wasn't where he claimed it was.

This round-around has been going on for seven or eight years now, with no end in sight. Dale has been DNA-tested up the wazoo, but has no idea what the results really mean or how to interpret them meaningfully - Justin has given up trying to explain, because Dale just. won't. listen.

Fundamentally Dale's story hasn't changed: he's Oh So Special because Tudor ancestry.

If he *does* have any connection to the Tudors, it's probably farther back than he thinks - when they were mere Welsh nobility - and mixed male-female descent. All known and tested male-line descendants of the Tudors of Penmynydd have belonged to a different Y-haplogroup than he does. (At one point he came up with a bizarre rape fantasy involving John of Gaunt and the mother of Owen Tudor, until I pointed out that the Plantagenet haplogroup wasn't a match for him either - regardless of whether Richard III or the Somersets had the "right" one.)

Just you wait, he'll be back with another convoluted backstory explaining away all the discrepancies....

Glad another person can’t figure out “Beatrice at the field of the cloth of gold, being comely” either.

Have hit my limit for the nonce.

That's unanimous.

He's at it again, though, over here: https://www.geni.com/discussions/203260

half way down the page of BHO British History on Line
https://www.british-history.ac.uk/letters-papers-hen8/vol3/pp231-24...

You will find Laundry: Sir Thomas Noreys and 5 others, so if you search further you should be able to find Lady Rhys ap Thomas Laundess as having her own Laundress Counting down RO 5 or 6 you find that Sir Rhys ap Thomas and son Griffeth ap Rice summoned and Gruffed was in Charge of 5,000 Horses. Since it has been many years since I found this Im not going any further. I don't make stuff up. I read it online and your characterisztion of me is not only unchairatable but intentionally insulting. DCR

For MBH: Kindly show me another person who has 4 known lines of Descent from the Tudors:https://www.geni.com/path/Henry-Carey-1st-Baron-Hunsdon+is+related+...
Henry VII, King of England#

Anne of Cleves
Private

Married to my first and second cousin Sir Robert Dudley. I put these up because you continue to Slurr me MBH. This is not the ususal case of wannabe persons, I have found myself at the center of a Tudor dilema, and all you do is make fun of me. For SHAME on such an attitude. DCR 1948