Dale C. Rice Maternal links to English Power Familieshttps://www.geni.com/path/Dale-C-Rice+is+related+to+Ralph-Neville-1st-Earl-of-Westmorland?from=6000000013463839522&path_type=blood&to=6000000001069437500

Erica, you *think* he's mixing up Rice families?

He's doing the Emma Siggins White thing, grabbing and smash-mashing any and every family with similar names, whether they have any reason to be related or not.

100 years later and *some* people have *still* not learned that that is not how you do genealogy.

William Rice, MP, of Medmenham had three (half-?) sisters, Elizabeth, Anne and Margaret Rice.

Barbara Fuller Rice's niece Mary married the nephew William. (Her niece Anne married one William Eden.)

Of the half-sisters, Ann Rice married a George Mortimer, Elizabeth married a William Fitz-Geoffrey, and Margaret married an Edward Eyton.

Somebody named William Borlase bought up all the claims circa 1597.

I filled in all these Rice girls & their husbands even though they lead no where. But maybe someone English will find them it useful information one day.

This https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Borlase_(died_1629)_

https://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/bucks/vol3/pp84-89#highlight-...

“In the west of Medmenham parish is Bockmer, frequently mentioned as his country seat in the papers bearing on the trial of Henry Pole Lord Montagu in 1538, (fn. 16) and afterwards the residence of the Borlase family. (fn. 17)”

William Apreece
There was a vanity ancestry that said Williiam ap Rice was son of Joan Otter and Rhys ap Gruffed 1508. You see the dates here conflating Joan with Gruffed. You have sorted that now we know Robert ap Reece Husband of Joan Otter (she also has FULD ancestors) Which belong to the next Cousin Rice born to Beatrice married to Daffid ap Rice son of Sir Rhys ap Thomas. Making the two williams first 1/2 cousins or perhaps 2nd depending on the distance each father is distant from their joint father? You tell me.

http://www.tudorwomen.com/?page_id=705 Tudor Women listing of Barbara Fuld and Beatrice wife of Daffid ap Rice
https://www.geni.com/path/Dale-C-Rice+is+related+to+Dafydd-ap-Rhys-...

Rude and disrespectful language is not allowed here MBH. The reason I thought there might be a connection to Otter is because they are cousins to my ancestor Perrot ap Rice who arrived in1638. With the ancestor firmly attatched to Joan Otter and former father of William thought then to be Rhys ap Gruffed. Public Rebuke is hardly called for no matter how tedious you find my method of seeing if this fits or not. If it does not I can own up to being wrong....we only started speaking again after 4 years and your insit on being ugly in print to me. I will not return your comments if you persist in calling my search a fantasy as you are attacking the source as well as me. DCR

Should have said arrived in Virginia 1638- 1640 when he left Wales for America.

Ms. Erica : Take them in any order you wish, Willaim ap Rice 1521 son of Beatrice and DAffid ap Rice my first story I brought to Geni in 2011 Changed by JS to William ap Rice son of Unknown and Edin Saunders, who did have children by those names Or perhpas was known as EDIN AP RICE BEATRICE? soundex is a method of hunting for names that sound similar. William ap Rice 1522/ or 1505 now on the Geni File son of Joan Otter and Robert ap Rice cousin of Daffid ap Rice. Thanks in advance for anything you choose to do. Clearly I don't speak the language you all prefer but I assure you if I were the investigator looking into the murder of your relative you would come to appreciate my tenacity.

Calling out a fantasy as a fantasy should be within permissible limits, or there's no point in having a genealogical discussion at all.

It is a fantasy that Otter Lake, way up in the Blue Ridge and not even discovered until circa 1700, has anything whatsoever to do with trading posts in the Henricus-Varina area (at the *actual* fall line of the James River) circa the 1620s.

It is a fantasy that Perrot ap Rice of Tenby, Wales, has anything to do with John Perrot, Quaker schismatic from Ireland.

It is a fantasy that Perrot ap Rice, has anything to do with the Virginia Colony whatsoever.

It is a fantasy that Perrot ap Rice was fathered by Sir John Perrot, MP. (He *may* be a distant cousin via his paternal grandmother, Katherine *Perrot* - whom, by the way, your fantasy would deny to him - but there is not much evidence even of that.)

It is a fantasy that Perrot ap Rice fathered John Rice of Dedham - no one knows who did, but a Welsh nobleman is among the *least* likely possibilities.

It is a fantasy that *every* family with the same or similar surname *must necessarily* be related - far more often than not, they are not. (It is also a very persistent logical fallacy.)

All of these claims, and others, have been refuted, repeatedly, *with actual facts*, but you still make them just as pseudo-authoritatively as though no one had ever said anything at all.

Your reallity is curtailed by unnatural skepticism. My reality is the information found on line by merging both family history as told to me 1978 and finding the evidence for it on line beginning with John Peratt II 1565 foster son of Sir John Perrot. I found him in the Oxinesis Records and brought him to the SKEPTICS who did not believe me when I presented him....verified by Geni's very own OBE: "Dale even used traditional genealogical method". So from day one you and JS said I was in a fantacy proved you both wrong and you have been nursing that wound all these years. Now you refuse to acknowledge the DNA Justin said I had to find in Perrot ap Rice's son: I did and presented proof of Thomas Price being met by Rice Hughes on the James River 1652 March 2 and the notation of Rice Hughes receiving 200 acres for his son and 3 others on the YORK river according to Virginia Registry of Early Settlers. I then told you he married into Atkins Pughe N.A. families and put up the all blue file proving that is what Geni shows as well...Still you call me wrong and a fantacy. Next I prove to you that Jesse and Robert Hughes son of John Rice Hughes and Native woman are Identical Match to my 37 marker test on Y chromosome, you say I am Wrong but 23/25 and 37/37 verifies I am right. You have made this personal, and if you persist in calling names in Public I will certainly request you be barred from further interation with me and other who want to follow this trail. If your limited imagination cannot understand that Perrot ap Rice did not die because JS Said so...let me tell you the evidence shows he had sons in Virginia who match my DNA. You are the one not following the Science here. I have said all along that I will abide by the DNA and even the Sutton/Dudley connection is verified by John Dudley 1850 23/25 and Robert Sutton 1637 H1956-57 on Family Tree at 60/67 or 59/67 however you want to count the variable marker att #447 on Y. My father and my son Have 29 repeating alleles by cousin who shares my 3rd great grandfather has 28....so what? I remain steadfast and you will not call me names or delusional to other members of this discussion as you are the one who has painted yourself into the very corner you tried to put me in. So KINDLY STOP SMEARING ME. DCR

https://www.geni.com/people/Dafydd-ap-Rhys/6000000089679

This file is the brother to Daffid ap Rice who married Beatrice (Gardiner-Rice) daughter of Helen Rice and William Gardiner, knight of Rhys ap Thomas. Further: Helen is the Daughter of Margred Verch MYVENEY and Jasper Tudor. The very Tudor line I descend from along 5 lines of descent. Contested but most are shown here on Geni. My father understood genetics as practiced by Mendal and chose my mother for her direct connection to Tudor wife # 4 Anne of Cleaves...who's sister Amalia was in the running for Wife of the King. Geni at various times Amalia as our Great Aunt x 12 removed or Great Grandmother if you count the daughter of Captain SPencer as our blood link at his daughter Norville. Presently another daughter disconnects my line but the pathway of information is there. Kindly take this seriously as my work here bein discredited by MBH and despite her say so I will not change my position on my reasearch as verified on Geni.

Dale, for the record, I disagree with every claim in the post https://www.geni.com/discussions/202765?msg=1338071

Your genealogy work in Virginia is raw & inexperienced. It would be better to leave it be until you learn more about the Colony.

The link didn’t work. Do you mean this family?

Dafydd ap Rhys, of Rickeston

Dale C. Rice I suspect the origins of William Rice, MP are a mystery for the ages without solution, as he had no children so there’s nothing to test. Or buried in the archives of state papers in England.

No one denies anything about this family. The sources know no more. So to say anything other is speculation. I do “not” indulge, nor does Geni.

It was there when I placed it there so the powers that be have taken it down. The file of Daffid ap Rice is conflicted because there are two sons named Daffid ap Rice that belong to Rhys ap Thomas. One was married to Beatrice Gardiner 2nd cousin to the King and LAvendar to Rhys ap Thomas. Her son was raised in the Household of Princess Mary. The file you noted is not that. Therefore the conflict.

You are free to express and believe what you like Ms. Erica: I am not following my own leads here...Justin Swanstrom put the challenge to me and others to find son's of Perrt ap Rice who left wales 1638-39 and was not heard from again after 1640. That does not mean he DIED as Justin believes. In the face of that I have N. A. support for my DNA being in the Atkins Hughes and Pughe Families. Whay on earth would anyone not understand that a man who steals from the KINGS Purveyors would not use his real name? I said from day one he was a Scoundrel and 3 timing man with Pricilla Littleton, and unknown Native woman, and finally with Elizabeth Williams? I forget the 3rd wife's name but he's the same maurauding bad boy until 1653-54 when he became a new creature of FAITH. So what ? We disagree. I am awaiting Family Finder Information which will link the women of this story to gether and we can talk about it when it arrives. DCR

Good, let us please, please “not” discuss Virginia genealogy. It is not your strength: you are much better on Wales & Royalty. So when the time comes you might want to engage a professional genetic genealogist to help you best interpret the test results you see: I don’t get involved at the level you seek.

—-

No powers that be interfered, it was a copy paste issue. Did I link the family you mean? Because according to the Welsh authorities, there were indeed two sons with the same name of Sir Rhys ap Thomas, K.G., of Dynevor

—-

You will need to be extremely precise in this area and “after” you read the profile notes, please.

Ok, you mean this couple:

Beatrice ap Rice & David ap Rice

What’s the question ?

I see your claim: you suggest that William Rice, MP, of Medmenham was the same person as William ap Rice shown with siblings Harry ap Rice & Mary ap Rice who married Thomas Jenkins.

However, according to HOP & VCH, William of Medmenham had these siblings:

- An unknown brother, father of William Rice
- three (half-?) sisters, Elizabeth, Anne and Margaret Rice.

The siblings do not match, and neither does the “class.” Medmenham claimed “gentle birth” & his positions, offices & property validate that claim.

William ap Rice is known as “Steward of the Wine Cellar” which is a household position. He would “not” have been elected to Parliament.

By the way, the Will of William Rice MP is available for purchase:

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D924683

That should end any speculation and perhaps call further light on his siblings families; although there really isn’t a reason to doubt what VCH & HOP have.

I second Erica's request to refrain from posting anything else about Virginia until you have had a chance to 1) look at a map, 2) study up on the history of the Colony with especial emphasis on the Jamestown years, and 3) get a good grip on who really was whom.

Slamjamming two or three or more people together does not make them the same man and does not prove anything.

Erica, I think we're back to the "family legend" about Beatrice the laundress, the Field of the Cloth of Gold, and the "secret son" of Henry VIII.

It would make an entertaining historical novel, but as for its value in serious genealogical research....

The point I brought up in 2011 was a missing Tudor Heir because he was low born. that Low born boy William ap Rice 1521 born 9 mos. after the Field of Cloth of Gold was born to Beatrice ap Rice of Tudor Women fame. And he Married Barbara Fulde or Fuller as noted previously. I am simply suggesting that reason for the Change in locale for Beatrice was she was hired away from (DEMANDED) Sir Rhys ap Thomas and his wife who was her Origional Employer. Can we agree that Beatrice may be a NICK NAME for EdEN Ap Rice?

Re: Can we agree that Beatrice may be a NICK NAME for EdEN Ap Rice?

No, we cannot.

We have firm evidence that Eden Saunders was the mother of William Rice, MP.

We have firm evidence that a woman named Beatrice was the laundress for Queen Mary.

We have no evidence conflating the two “very different” women together.

I can be called ill-informed and I will accept that regarding Otter Lake. I assumed that was near the first Rapids on the James River and not the second trading post built by the Hooe 1 Family who bought Perrot ap Rice's merchant sailing vessel in 1654 and applied for and trading permissions from Virginia Colony. The Daughters born in Virginia and Married to Hooe1 and 2 are not the daughters of Perrot ap Rice 1598 my 7th ggfather, who left before they were born or in very short order afterward. He went onto and went to Rome where he & Brother Love/ Lufte were Clapped in Bedlam Prison. So I admit to being off target about Otter Lake near the 2nd trading post found ruins dating from 1750's But the Land upriver on the James at the First Rapids is where my 5th cousin & Pocohauntus settled near the first trading post founded 1639-40 to 1653-54. I was wrong about Otter lake being near there.....OKAY? Do I have to prove John Rolfe is my 5th cousin? And his son Pepsemone Rolf are my Maternal cousins? There is a symetry to my story that does not exist in your version of Perrot ap Rices life. But if you insiste I won't bring it up until the MT. DNA and Family Tree are in. DCR

Have you examined that the son of Beatrice named William and his father listed as son of Daffid ap Rice had his complete education to age 16 paid for from Princess Mary's Houshold funds. We did that in 2013 I think. That would mean Beatrice's position was SPECIAL as the King funded her and her son and Daughter yes?

Dale’s original posting on this claim is here:

https://www.geni.com/discussions/123497?msg=872908

Re: That would mean Beatrice's position was SPECIAL as the King funded her and her son and Daughter yes?

——

Queen Mary funded an early education. That is not particularly “special”.

A child of a laundress, raised “back stairs” in the palace, would never, ever have become a Member of Parliament.

Besides, we know what became of Beatrice’s children. The daughter married off. The son a wine steward in the household.

Re: But if you insiste I won't bring it up until the MT. DNA and Family Tree are in. DCR

Not only do I insist, my suggestion is you “first” retain a professional genetic genealogist to assist you in interpreting the results correctly.

Just to copy it out:

http://www.tudorwomen.com/?page_id=705

BARBARA RICE
see BARBARA FULLER

BEATRICE ap RICE (d.1558+) (maiden name unknown)
Beatrice was the wife of David ap Rice/Rhys (d.1540+), a groom or yeoman of the chamber in Princess Mary’s household prior to 1525. Beatrice became Mary’s laundress in 1519 and was still with her when her household was dissolved in October 1533. She also held this post when Mary was queen.