Dale C. Rice Maternal links to English Power Familieshttps://www.geni.com/path/Dale-C-Rice+is+related+to+Ralph-Neville-1st-Earl-of-Westmorland?from=6000000013463839522&path_type=blood&to=6000000001069437500

There seem to be even more Rosses than Rice/Prices. They're *everywhere*.

As you know, I operated for a while on a theory that my Ross family was Arthur’s from Rhode Island. Because it looked like my Abijah Ross took his war of 1812 pension to pioneer Tennessee, and Abijah is a repeating name in that 7th Day Baptist crowd.

Now it looks more like my Ross is Scots ... and really early to Elizabeth City County VA from the Highlands. Kind of amazing, if true. And married into the Mallory’s no less.

And - the Virginia Mallorys trace back to Yorkshire, thence to Leicestershire, and so back almost (but not quite) to the Conquest.

The Northern (Peter) Mallorys don't connect with them (wrong Y-haplogroup), and no one knows where they came from or if they connect to any of the less well documented Mal(l)orys.

Justin and I were all over the Mallorys sorting out the candidates for authorship of the Morte d'Arthur (probable answer is still Sir Thomas Malory of Newbold Revel, whose family is sketchily documented at both ends).

https://books.google.com/books?id=mXkgAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA374&lpg... Has the daughters of Petronilla Goodwin & Thomas Tyringham also differently, just to show that different Visitations report it differently.

They have:

#Elizabeth m 1) Henry Read 2) Henry Poole
#Catharine m Gilbert Huddy
#Mary m Edward Pigot, of North Crawley
# Anne m John Northwood
# Frances m Edward Sanders

——

I believe the property conveyances. Mary was the wife of Edmund Aprice, and it looks like they sold out of Crawley to her brother & nephew, and went to Wollaston in Northamptonshire.

BTW here’s “Aunt Jane”

Dame Jane Skipwith

Stirnet has

(4) Elena or Elizabeth m.Roger Tetlow of Turvey

https://www.stirnet.com/genie/data/british/aa/apreece1.php

Alright, while looking up some info on my own Mass. ancestry, I ran across the Rice pioneers of Mass. and this is what I see:

1. John Rice of Dedham (wife, Ann); CHILDREN:

John (b. Aug. 26, 1650),

Mary (b. July 6, 1652),

Sarah (b. April 2, 1654),

John (b. June 18, 1656),

Rachel (b. 3 Sept. 1664).

((No son named Samuel for John Rice of Dedham, here.))

2. Edmund, yeoman, Sudbury, propr. and selectman, 1639; frm. May 13, 1642. deputy 1643. Memb. of com. to convey lands at Whip Sufferage in 1657.

He deposed Feb. 3, 1656, age about 62 years. [Mdx. Files.] Rem. to Marlborough.

Thomas, Samuel and Joseph R[ice] were also petitioners for church privileges there. [Arch. Eccl. 1.]

Sold land to his sons Edward and Henry R[ice] 20 Feb. 1654.

Wife Tamazine d. 13 June, 1654.

Son Benjamin b. March 31, 1640 m. 1 March, 1655, Mercy Brigham. He d. in May, 1663. Petition for division of (his estate was signed 16 (4) 1663. by widow RICE, etc., cont. Mercy, 8 elder and 2 younger children. [Mds. Files.]

((So here is another Rice, Edmund, who lived just about 20 miles from Dedham, in Sudbury. And who later moved to Marlborough, MA, just a few miles further west.

In Edmund Rice's same community lived a

Thomas Rice,

Samuel Rice, and

Joseph Rice -- all of whom were quite possibly either brothers or sons of Edmund.

Three known sons of Edmund and Tamazine Rice are:

Edward Rice

Henry Rice

Benjamin Rice

Maybe you all have already ruled out Edmund Rice of Sudbury, MA. But if not, I just hope this helps somehow.

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=loc.ark:/13960/t5q81ng7b&amp...

"The pioneers of Massachusetts, a descriptive list, drawn from records of the colonies, towns and churches and other contemporaneous documents."

By Charles Henry Pope (published 1900 in Boston)

p. 383

Pope’s Pioneers is outdated (great source though).

Deacon Edmund Rice

Debra, you might notice I curate the profile; pretty familiar with him.

Until 2005 they thought John Rice of Dedham was his son.

He was not. This is Y DNA proven. John & Edmund may share a common ancestor some hundreds of years before.

As in, back about the time of Bad King John, or possibly even earlier.

They had thought Richard Rice was somehow related to Edmund also but there’s nothing supporting it.

Edmund was “famous” and prolific, his character and life story is very different from Richard or John’s.

John was undoubtedly a pious and well behaved man, who conformed in an enclosed community - that had one of the best of the Puritan ministers (in my opinion).

Edmund was a mover, shaker, land speculator, and a bit of a power player.

My Richard was so obscure, that mention of keeping cows in Cambridge is about all we know.

Samuel Rice Is known to be from John Rice & Ann Hackley. He’s in VR of Dedham - which was not particularly close to Sudbury & a different “orbit / orientation.”

Sudbury was a “daughter town” of Cambridge. Dedham was settled in 1635 by people from Roxbury and Watertown.

Dedham is one of the best studied of the Massachusetts towns with good record preservation.

Anyway - the Rice “story” is always about Deacon Edmund. Because he had so many descendants, all of these fragments of genealogy (such as Margaret Baker marrying Henry Rice) are associated with attempts to find his origins, and unsuccessfully, so far.

To find origins of John Rice one must look elsewhere. But not in Wales, as the Y DNA evidence suggests otherwise.

Hi Erica, of course I noticed (after taking a closer look at it). Nor am I able to find any connection between Dale's Rices and Edmund Rice, either. I was just drawn to it by the similarity in names, which often tend to run down generations in some of the old families.

But I find even less of a connection between his Rices and John of Dedham, if that's possible. I don't have time to dig through the 'sources' provided for that. I need references right in front of my eyes :D

I've finally exhausted myself trying to solve that puzzle. I'm thinking his paternal line is actually either related to some of the really ancient and obscure Rices that can be found on the gravestones sprinkled all over the old cemeteries in NY or CT (or just about anywhere on the East Coast) -- or, they're more recent immigrants, possibly even German rather than English.

"The German name Reiss has also been transliterated as Rice in the United States."

I still believe that the Rices on his maternal line are probably Welsh, English, and maybe Early American as well.

His paternal lineage looks German / Scandinavian to me. Pardon me if I'm mistaken about that. But the yDNA along with the migration from NY to Nebraska, seems typically German or Swedish, maybe Norwegian, to me.

Am I way off? :D

You are way off. :)

There really is no question that Dale Rice descends from John Rice b abt 1624 of Dedham MA. The paper trail is solid. The Y DNA trail is solid. And in Dale’s own family, they had thought (like everyone else until 2005) that they came from Edmund Rice. I believe his aunt in fact put together a tree showing it, but he’d have to remind me of that story. When we first attempted to help Dale in 2013, figuring out how she came up with what she did was very helpful.

And its really unlikely that an early settler of Dedham MA was of anything other than East Anglia in England origins. I can’t emphasize enough how homogenous this particular community was. They even had a town ordinance forbidding settlement of “foreigners” until 1660 - and by foreigner they meant “if we don’t know who you are.”

The origins of the colonists of The Great Puritan Migration (1620 - 1640) are among the best studied in genealogy. They were English. There was one known “Walloon” (Cook’s wife) - a Marriage In Leyden when the Pilgrims were living there before the Mayflower.

Now, if you can go further back in England, there might be more continental inter play. My Dr Philip Reade of London & Lynn is thought to have had a mother of ultimately French origin. But he was English, and Puritan, like everyone else who settled in the Massachusetts Bay Colony.

Forgive my generalizations ....

There are two “flows” of Scandinavians to America. By far the largest is the 1880s to 1920s with settlement directly to the Upper Midwest, notably Minnesota.

There was a small & short lived New Sweden Colony taken over by the Dutch in 1665:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Sweden

Their descent is not New York particularly if I remember right. We’re looking right now actually at a West Virginia pioneer who probably originated from that Colony.

—-

Upstate New York (Catskills) was heavily Dutch origin. There was an obscure English community in Dutchess County, I’m pretty sure that was one of the Migration points of Dale’s Rice family, as they fanned out from Connecticut.

——

The enormous German Migration was from the Palatine area to Pennsylvania in the early 1700s. I can’t think off hand of “any” German migrations in the 1600s although I’m sure someone will “what about these guys ...”. And in fact likely some of the New Netherland colonists were “German.”

——

Re: I still believe that the Rices on his maternal line are probably Welsh, English, and maybe Early American as well.

—-

I have no knowledge of “Rices on his maternal side.”

I haven’t looked at her tree in a long time, but she definitely had more diverse origins than the Rice side.

Geni says: John Rice, of Dedham is Dale C. Rice's 6th great grandfather.

https://www.geni.com/path/Dale-C-Rice+is+related+to+John-Rice-of-De...

You can “walk through” each of the links to see the sourcing.

Looking at some of the sources for the Samuels, what I've seen so far seem pretty sketchy from my admittedly wonky and uninformed point of view. Regardless, no one has been able to get past John Rice of Dedham anyway, sadly.

But I should add that if Dale is comfortable with his lineage up to John Rice of Dedham, then it is probably correct. We all have a few brick walls that are probably impossible to break through, and I sympathize with anyone having similar trouble. I'd be so happy if I could fix mine or somehow help someone else with theirs.

Anyway, I have an aimless but mentally challenging (so for me, fun) diversion that I like to indulge in occasionally, that of searching Findagrave for old stones in certain regions with certain names on them. Then I try to figure out who they were, and what families they belonged to. It can be very frustrating not knowing, and extremely time-consuming; but I'm currently a bit obsessed with that sort of history. :) Hopefully, I'll get tired of it soon.

For example, "Rice" (last name only) ; "Born after 1620" ; "Died before 1830" ; "NY"

With graves that old, there are usually only a few hits, even in states like NY. But it's interesting what shows up. Then I explore some of the historic and obscure cemeteries they're in. Fascinating. It can be frustrating to find some of them barely marked, if at all. No names. I wonder, "Why?" And then realizing they can't all be accounted for...

Anyhow, I'm going to leave ya'll alone now, and try to stay more focused on my own humble tree. For some reason I just had to get this Rice problem out of my system :D Good evening, all!

The work done on Henry Rice of Newton is brilliant and I as so happy it's finaly been put into it's proper sequence....something I could not do on the computer in 2011. I have been at some disadvantage being advanced in years where technology is concerned so I plead no contest to not putting up the evidence as I didn't know how to then. As to now: You all have established that Thomas Price was wrongfully attaced as son of Katherine Howard and Rhys ap Gruffed 1508. Born allegedly 20 years after his father was beheaded. I thank you for that, but some files still show him as son of Katherine ap Rhys-Bridge water born now 1532 or the year after his father died. You have also cleared up the Henry Rice of Newton controversey as a son of Sir Walter Rice of Dynevor But the William ap Rice and Elizabeth Lattimer file is still out of Order. The file shows that William ap Rice 1522 son of Joan Otter and Robert Ap Rice received his own recognition of Nobility on May 2, 1552 and the home of William ap Rice son of Beatrice and Barbara Fulde/fuller according to the Ladies of the Tudor Court handed off their properties to cousin William ap Rice/Reece. How can we find the transfer document of MedmenHam Manor and at least one other to Son of Robert ap Rice and Joan Otter? ( I understand you think Otter lake refers to a fury animal but Otter is the namesake ancestor of Perrot ap Rice cousin to all of the above named Rices.) That's a difference of interpretation of facts you contest...I won't bring it up again if you won't. The William ap Rice Question is important because now there are Three Williams ap Rice in contention for my cousin: The one I brought to everyone's attention born 1521 9 mos after the Field of Cloth of Gold June4, 1521-March 1521-22 and his mother was Beatrice ap Rice not Edin Saunders according to Ladies of the Tudor Court. William ap Rice son of Joan Otter and Robert ap Rice born about the same time 1522 ca and should have inherited manor house at Medmenham from William and Barbara Fulde. (Fulde's Name appears as ancestor to William 1522) and now the Lattimer William ap Rice born about 1505 which is much closer to the birth of Rhys ap Gruffed 1508...so I wonder if there is not a conflation of two lives? DCR Thankyou if bother with this I simply can't sort it . DCR

Dale, you’re going to have to parse out your question more precisely, I am really lost.

I take it one profile at a time, and I can’t “deal” with what might have been showing in the past. Also these are very difficult questions that take a lot of effort. Would it be possible for you to LINK the Geni profile and ask the very simple question of it?

—-

Debra, the Dutchess County Rice tombstones might very well belong to the Samuel Rice family. I had to look at it again & refresh myself on old studies. This was the Beekman Patent, which is kind of a black hole of vital records. They have been reconstructed somewhat from church & store records.

Dale’s descent from this family is well established by Y DNA, as has Samuel’s descent from John (even if we didn’t have the record of him marrying in Dedham).

I appreciate very much Erica, how patient, gracious, and informative you have been all along. I didn't fully understood what was going on here, but for some reason felt compelled to somehow make sense of it in my own mind.

I'm always trying to make sense of things, especially genealogy and some of my other favorite subjects; and I'm sure it must seem to many that I have strange ways of going about it because I'm neither a trained nor even very experienced genealogist even after a lifetime of casually dabbling in it.

I really enjoyed your completely comprehensible explanations, they do make perfect sense to me, now, after the dust has settled a bit. And I really do believe you; I was already aware of a lot of what you have just pointed out to me, but I just had to prove his line to my own satisfaction, mainly because Dale seemed to have some mysterious problem with it that I couldn't quite pin down.

I realize how slow I must seem to those of you who have already dedicated years of studying and working on his tree, and I apologize for unintentionally (yet clumsily) getting in the way here. I hope that in the final analysis it somehow turns out for the best, for all concerned.

As for Dale's maternal Rhys connections, I discovered them by playing with the fabulous Geni Relationship Calculator. :) I compared his mother's profile with many of the big (i.e. noble) Rhys names, and found she was fairly close cousins with many of them. And I think I remember even at least a couple of direct descents with her. Did you try that?

Hello there, Mr. Rice, our guest of honor. I'm so happy to hear from you this evening. I'm ecstatic that we were able to get Henry properly accounted for. It seems miraculous, to me.

And you shouldn't blame yourself for it taking so long to accomplish, because currently there is much more available in the way of excellent resources than there was back in 2011 (I know this because at the time and for many years I could get absolutely nowhere on my own tree). Part of the problem was that so many of the finest genealogical texts were still under copyright protection up until very recently. Tons of rare and valuable books have been sitting in libraries just collecting dust while waiting to be scanned for the internet.

(I won't mention the problem with our local library's lack of ambition and judgment in that regard, how they own a single, original, handwritten copy of an extremely rare and valuable 1895 local County census loaded with probably at least a hundred or more closely related family members -- that can only be seen by visiting the library personally and actually handling the 3 or 4 ancient, massive accounting books it was recorded in. I cringe at the thought of just anyone being allowed to touch them, and I wish I had the time to transcribe and copy the whole masterpiece.)

And Dale, I've been able to follow you fairly well all along (for example: I knew that your reference to Lake Otter had to do with Joan Otter, a person not an animal :D) -- but unfortunately I don't know enough about the whole tree to understand exactly what might be seriously wrong with it (and I suspect there is probably enough work there to keep even professionals very busy for the rest of their lives).

I'd like very much to help you straighten it out, and if I ever think I have anything potentially useful to share, believe me I will. Unfortunately though, age, work obligations, and poor health has slowed me way down lately. So frustrating, and it just compounds my lack of training and experience. But even so, I am more than happy to take the time to read and thoughtfully consider your quite interesting genealogical concerns, because I believe that what you're telling us does make sense even though I personally don't quite 'get (all of) it' completely, yet.

It might at least inspire me to do some research in those wonderful old books and archives. There are so many amazing things in them just waiting to be discovered. And I do believe in miracles, so I have faith that if there is any good that can come of it, it will happen :)

Meanwhile, fortunately you can depend on Erica with all of her truly impressive expertise, and probably many other curators as well. So it looks like you are well covered, sir.

Otters are everywhere, and rather than Joan Otter improbably giving her name *to* Otter Creek, Otter Lake, etc. in Virginia, it is likely that her family took their name *from* the European species (Lutra lutra - the American river otter is Lontra canadensis).

Coincidence is a real thing.

As for Medmenham, here's the boring who-had-it-when: https://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/bucks/vol3/pp84-89

And here's a little bit of titillating scandal (long after William Price's time): https://www.ancient-origins.net/ancient-places-europe/hellfire-club...

None of us understand fully what’s going on here. :)

Slowly and methodically, avoiding theory and sourcing the profiles on Geni make it clearer.

Let’s also be clear that I don’t have an interest or expertise in anything Wales. I have no known Ancestry in the area so there’s not a reason to have developed any.

I’m getting reasonable on late Tudor English, but can’t hold a candle to many.

Just found a “murderess” so that was fun.

Anne Saunders

Dale, you wrote:

“The file shows that William ap Rice 1522 son of Joan Otter and Robert Ap Rice received his own recognition of Nobility on May 2, 1552 .... “

What file?

Geni has: William (ap Rhys) Apreece MP
Welsh: William ap Rhys
Gender: Male
Birth: circa 1505
North Crawley, Newport, Buckinghamshire, England
Death: 1574 (65-73)

So the dates you quote aren’t making sense to me.

I'd never even heard of Medmenham, so the great links are very helpful, thank you Maven. (BHO is fun, now that they've improved so much.)

So now I wonder if the Otter family first adopted their surname from the European water creature, then turned around and gave their family name to the waters near their new home inhabited by the American water creatures.

Oddly enough, von Otter is an aristocratic Swedish name. And the same word (spelled differently) means basically the same thing in practically every Indo-European language in the book.

https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=otter
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otter_(surname)

I'm printing out Dale's last post, so I can carry it around with me and study it every chance I get until I'm able to comprehend it better. It's my homework, :) I don't know why, but I just get the sense that there's something important for me to understand or learn in that post (and probably most of his other posts as well, which I might also print out to make them easier to read in bed or at lunch, etc. -- when I'm more relaxed and rested).

I really enjoy language and linguistics (thus, reading), and it appears to me that Dale is actually saying something quite intelligible. It's just an awful lot for me to digest quickly enough. He writes the way that I talk sometimes -- a little too fast for some people :D

I think he’s mixing up Rice families.

The Apreece line from Joan Otter is Washingley in Buckingham and “not” the same as the Rice’s mentioned for Medmenham.

OK, this is the Rice family of Medmenham.

William Rice, MP

There is nothing to be developed as far as I can tell. His parents are unknown & he had no children.

Nothing to do with Joan Otter.

Debra, you can stop wondering about the Otter family and Otter Lake/Creek/etc in Virginia. That's just one of Dale's fantasies. It is *impossible* to get him to realize that the *actual* earliest (c1620s) trading posts "above the fall line on the James River" (Henricus/Varina area) and the Otter Creek area are separated by well over 100 miles and almost 100 years - so he keeps serving up this cockamamie mishmosh that cannot and does not make sense.