Dale C. Rice Maternal links to English Power Familieshttps://www.geni.com/path/Dale-C-Rice+is+related+to+Ralph-Neville-1st-Earl-of-Westmorland?from=6000000013463839522&path_type=blood&to=6000000001069437500

Not 8 in the same family: You can't see the full arch of this without looking at my pages. Anne of Cleaves is my Great Aunt....Geni says says so my mother is the spitting image of her sister AMALIA...that's DNA...you can't find your way in this without seeing that 400 years of accepted non history is not True. If you think The tudors wrote the truth about Richard III then that's a problem I can't solve for you. It's a statistical impossiblity to have 8 members of one family have these faces that belong to the Tudors and Valois Kings without DNA down both lines as I have shown. Have a nice day. Im going to take a nap.

At least I've told you what I know and How I found it okay? Do let me know if there is someone else out there with this level of connectedness and DNA that is all in Allignment including J2a from Central Spain.

I could not even get IN.

If other people cannot see the information, there is no information.

"This is way the DNA got to my father's chidlren: Through him and his line all the way back to John RICE of Dedham not the son of Edmund Rice: it goest to Perrot ap Rice 1598 to Margaret Mercer"

You lose the Y-DNA at Margaret Mercer. She could not possibly have had any Y-DNA.

You DO NOT pick up mtDNA from her, because that is not how it is transmitted.

You have also never provided the exact, perfect Y-DNA match between John Rice of Dedham and Perrot ap Rice that would indicate a direct male line relationship.

Even if you could, it would not be conclusive proof that Perrot ap Rice was the father of John Rice of Dedham - only that *some* male with the same ancestors as Perrot ap Rice was responsible. You then have to prove that no one else had the opportunity, and good luck with that.

Not even Tudorplace, which is fairly loosey-goosey as far as relationships go, says anything about Margaret Mercer being related to Sir John Perrot in any way whatsoever.

at my own peril, i will weigh in. the term statistical impossibility is one essentially never used in genetics b/c all it does is open you up for failure. oj was statistically ruled out in the double murder. also, looking like someone, even potential family, is meaningless. i have met my near twin (identical looking, far from genetic) and he has backgrounds i would only hope to have. also, there isn't a single, for-a-fee dna testing firm that hasn't been raked over the coal for inaccuracies and flat out into bio level errors/frauds. grain of salt with all of them.

drsjp

Are you still insisting that Perrot ap Rice is the son of someone other than Thomas ap Rice, Margaret Mercer's legal husband?

And are you now insisting that Margaret Mercer was *not* the daughter of William Mercer of Ewelm, but that *she* was the "mysterious" link with Sir John Perrot?

Are you *really* claiming that Perrot ap Rice is the bastard son of a bastard daughter of a bastard son of Henry VIII?

Do you have *any idea* just how unlikely that is?

Among the things you throw away by making this claim *is your link to Sir Rhys ap Thomas*!!!

Henry VII has been the topic of discussion at all times.

Cynthia, you're missing a "I". Not that many people want to talk about the stingy old miser Henry 7 - but his profligate, horny, woman-destroying son Henry 8, that's different...

"I'm 'Enery the Eighth, I am,
'Enery the Eighth I am, I am
I got married to the widow next door
She'd been married seven times before
And every one was an 'Enery,
She wouldn't have a Willie or a Sam,
I'm 'er eighth old man named 'Enery,
'Enery the Eighth I am!"

*sigh...sadly, we descend from whence we do. It NOT a choice. I am simply weighing in that this is NO surprise to those of us watching from the side-lines.
Thing is that I, per the Geni, am a granddaughter of said...why NOT an illegitimate grandson?
If I cannot READ/decifer/interpret the data I will NOT ridicule it.
I am here to build a tree and the DNA is WHY I stay.
The bullying is so last year.

More like eight years ago - that's how long this megillah has been going on. Geni keeps records of past Discussions, did you know?

Nothing is ever really lost...

The fundamental problem is that Dale's "primary source", and what he vets everything else against, is a story told him by his father forty years ago, with additions from other relatives at various times. He didn't write it down at the time, and admits that his memory isn't all it should be.

A fair number of the claims in the story have not panned out - for instance, there turns out to have been no connection between Deacon Edmund Rice of Sudbury and John Rice of Dedham (specifically, John Rice of Dedham is not the son - nor even a cousin - of Deacon Edmund Rice). Dale is descended from John, and John is a Brick Wall. http://www.edmund-rice.org/haplotype.htm

This has not stopped Dale from cobbling up an ancestry based on the attributed (and debunked) ancestors of Deacon Edmund Rice as found in a cod genealogy called "By the Name of Rice", and kludging things to suit his fancy. (Deacon Edmund Rice is another Brick Wall, and the Edmund Rice Association hasn't been able to crack it.) http://www.edmund-rice.org/ancestors.htm

About the most the Edmund Rice Association has been able to do is to localize the Deacon to the vicinity of Stanstead and/or Sudbury, Sussex, England. That's not only not anywhere near Wales, it's in an area known to this day as East Anglia, with deep Saxon - not Welsh - roots. (It is thought by some linguists that the Saxons had a personal name cognate with the German "Reis" or "Ries", possibly spelled "Hris" - a form that appears in the Anglo-Saxon Chronicles for the county of Cambridgeshire, in the year 1052.) http://www.edmund-rice.org/rice_name.htm https://www.surnamedb.com/Surname/Rice (take this one with a fair amount of salt).

The jury is still out on exactly where John Rice of Dedham came from...but almost all the first settlers of Dedham were a tightly homogenous East Anglian group. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Dedham,_Massachusetts,_163... , see also references at the bottom.

So much is definitely known - anything (in the male line) back beyond John Rice of Dedham is speculation abetted by guesses, some of them quite wild.

Yes: That's exactly what I am saying MBH. Margaret Mercer is the Daughter of Sir John Perrot 1527 and Johanna Lovelace which is reflected on her Red Portion of Lovelace Shield above her grave. Yes she is the missing daughter that is mentioned in theWick pages...that's how Perrot ap Rice comes by his mt. DNA and no Y from John Perrot....That's the point . Perrot ap Rice female line is Perrot and his father line is John Peratt II 1565. You don't have to tell me for the 100th time women don't carry Y...you keep telling me that....It's you who don't understand. Now I gave you full access to my file in Family tree to use my password and account number which shows Perrot ap Rices sons DNA in Virginia at Perrot 67 Markers x 3 of them and Perrot 37 markers. Adkins, to Pughe to Hughes...All of the names I gave you before are now part of my family finder file. The undeerstanding is that a man on the run who is a scoundrel used a different name in Virginia...what is so hard about that? DCR

It's stitll a statistical impossibility for 8 members of the same family in Nebraska to aquire their doppleganger faces from History without the DNA that goes with those faces. I repeat. Henry VII, Henry VIII, Elizabeth I, Mary Tudor I , Queens Mary and Anne, and Louis VIIII of Valois France and others are all present in the same family because of 4 lines of dirct blood ancestry. Not possible. one or two yes not 8. DCR

Speculation abetted by wild guesses.

It has been explained to YOU over and over and over again that a mother can pass her mtDNA to a male child, BUT THE MALE CHILD CANNOT PASS IT ON.

It has also been explained to YOU over and over and over again that DNA in any form cannot *prove* direct-line ancestry (mtDNA is particularly bad for this, since it changes so very little over time), but it can DISprove - and much more easily than you seem to think.

The *most* that Y-DNA or mtDNA can prove is that so-and-so has ancestors in the family of such-and-such - but it can't tell you exactly *which* ancestor so-and-so descends from. (We have some cases on Geni where we know somebody belongs to a given family, but we *don't* know - and may never know - exactly how they are related.)

As for autosomal, it's even less precise and can suggest that various people are related - but not how, not without a verified paper trail.

And of course a *bad* paper trail isn't worth squat.

Okay here's what family Tree has to say about my Hughes line in Virginia after 1640: That I match Jesse Hughes 37/37 and his son Robert 23/25 markers. I vary by one allele on marker 447 with 29 repeats instead of 28. So are all I M253 including these males of Hughes lineJack Martin Hughes zerodistance 37 markers: William Eugen Hughes zero distance 37 markers, Gary K Hughes zero distance 67 markers, G. Hughes zero distance 37/37 markers. These are the sons and grandsons of my 7th great grandfather known in Virginia s John Rice Hughes traveling with a native Girl 1639-40 to 1654 When he was saved and became a full time preacher of Quaker Belief.

Further: It is recordedd that Thomas Price was received in Virgina March 2, 1652 by Rice Hughes of the James River ?? and received 50 acres for Thomas Price and another 150 acres for 3 others he sponsored on the York River. Thomas Price of Liether is the son of Pricilla ap Rice and Perrot ap Rice 1598 and according to the Pembrookshire journals on line received 50 lbs. sterling from his mother as an early inheritence and then shows up in Virginia. If you can't put that together please stop telling the world I am wrong when it's you that is wrong. Family Tree further says that John Price son of Thomas Price of Manovan received 100 acres on the James river in 1620 along with his wife Mary and they are proved 4th cousins of Perrot ap Rice who show up in 1639 with a native woman. Again you don't have to believe me but that's what I was told and you say I am wrong all you want to...But I was given good information in 1978 by my father....I just had lost track of some of it by 2011 when I started to verify the story here on GENI. Do I need to go one with the Phillips line of Virginia verified at67 markers to 67 for me zero distance at Ronald Phillips and James Phillips. and the The Adkins line to Pughe line which I put up is Native American in Virginia. So now we know that my DNA from Perrot ap Rice 1598 son of John Perratt 1565 is on both sides of the Atlantic after 1640 and that his son by Pricillia joined him there 1652. DCR

I call baloney on the "doppelganger faces". There are only so many ways to put a human face together, and most of them fall into the "Twelve Standard Faces".

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/strangers-who-look-like-twins-im-not...

I never said Perrot ap Rice passed on his mother's Mt. DNA He receives it from her but it passes only from her to her daughters. You can stop trying to make me look incompetent by saying this stuff over ang over. MBH.

Call it what you like it's on my D. Charles Rice page for any one who cares to see for themselves...I posted my grandfather's picture 8 years ago as clearly the grandson of Henry VII. You are simply defeated on this where Perrot ap Rice and his son are in Virginia like I said 8 years ago...the DNA of the Hughes Family son of John Rice Hughes and Native woman say so. You were wrong all along. Okay. The story is true and you and Justin were wrong .

You keep assuming that in all of the English-speaking world there could only be *one* Thomas Price at any one time, and that *all* references to *any* Thomas Price must be to the same man. That is Not. Even. Wrong.

Then you fudge the fact that Thomas Price of Llether was reported in Wales three years after *A* Thomas Price took up land in Virginia, with BS about his crossing and re-crossing the Atlantic (on a 50 pound legacy??? *After* buying land in Virginia???)

You keep fudging and fudging and fudging the fact that you *do not* have a Y-DNA match between John Rice of Dedham and Perrot ap Rice - *are* there any verified Y-DNA results for Perrot ap Rice? (I haven't seen any, anywhere.)

And of course you fudge the holy heck out of the *obvious* fact that Perrot ap Rice and John Perrot the Quaker were *not the same person*. You mystify and confuse and double-talk to hide the fact that there is no "there" there.

Mmm - all this talk about fudge is making me hungry! :-D

Blunt brute assertion that you and only you are right and EVERYONE else - even RECOGNIZED DNA EXPERTS - is wrong --

IS BULLYING.

Bah - you're just cruisin' for another song:

"I'm My Own Grandpaw"
(Ray Stevens)

Many, many years ago when I was 23
I was married to a widow who was pretty as can be

This widow had a grown-up daughter who had hair of red
My father fell in love with her and soon they too were wed

This made my dad my son-in-law and really changed my life
For now my daughter was my mother 'cause she was my father's wife

And to complicate the matter even though it brought me joy
I soon became the father of a bouncing baby boy

My little baby then became a brother-in-law to dad
And so he became my uncle though it mad me very sad

For if he were my uncle that would also made him brother
Of the widows grown-up daughter who was of course my stepmother

Father's wife then had a son who kept them on the run
And he became my grandchild for he was my daughter's son

My wife is now my mother's mother and it makes me blue
Because although she is my wife she's my grandmother two

Now if my wife is my grandmother then I'm her grandchild
And every time I think of it, nearly drives me wild

'Cause now I have become the strangest case you ever saw
As husband of my grandmother I am my own grandpaw

Oh I'm my own grandpaw
I'm my own grandpaw
It sounds funny I know but it really is so
I'm my own grandpaw
(Listen to this now)
I'm my own grandpaw
I'm my own grandpaw
I'm my own grandpaw

You are entitled to your opinion but the facts are in fromFamily tree that I have cousin matches among down line PErrot's that link back to Richard Perrot son of Prunella and John Perrot Jr. ca 1590. How obtuse do you have to be not to see the PREDICtIONS made by Geni Algorythem supports my father's 1978 story. Perrot ap Rice 1598 = father of Thomas Price of Liether who got his inheritence early and showed up in Virginia 1652 as a sponsored person of Rice Hughes of James River? RIce Hughes is the person my father said ran from Cromwell and disappeared in 1640...his son showed up and married into the Pughe, Atkins, Phillips lines of N.A. tribes and when his father sold out the ship to Hooe 1 returened to Wales by 1656? Are you so comitted to destroying the perfectly logical story now told to you for at least the 10th time that you are confused?

For New data from Family Tree my file is 303391 it shows my cousin status on family finder to Alan Adkins 37/37 Thomas Alan Perrot distance 1 step I-M253 Donald Gordon Perrot 1 step distance I-M253 Euan Hagan Perrot zero distance I -M253. Roger Phillips 111 markers zero distance I- M253 David Edwardd Phillips 111 markers I M253 Richard Phillips zero distanceI M253 and Daniel Phillips all of Virginia SC so US Southern contigueous states as my DNA matches including Pughe from Thomas Price who was met by his father using the name of John Rice Hughes....his Brother was John Rice and Hughes is the family name at Griffeth Hughes the servant of Griffeth ap Rice 1508 and Katherine Howard-Bridgwater. Why would he use the name? Because he knew in 1540 that his brother was still alive and the Hughes name was known to his father having been raised at Carew Castle from 1565- 1582 when he was thrown out of the family by getting the dauther of his foster Father Anne Perrot Phillips of Picton Castle Pregnant in 1582. Now I will not explain any further that he Perrot ap Rice was a scoundrel on the Run having left his uncle owing 640 lbs in 1640. He got out of Wales...JS Assumption was simply not true. He did not die as there is no monument put up by his father for his first born son. The logic is now with me Ms. Helms. The DNA is with me and You are simply not able to open your closed mind to the fact that Perrot ap Rice 1598 = John Perrot the Quaker Pope Converter as my father disclosed in 1978 but which I had forgotten until well into the first years of discussion here at GENi....You faulted me from day one not having the proof now that it's in front of you : You fail to recognise it. Bye DCR

PS: Alan Adkins shows as a 3rd to 5th cousin and Adkins is direct from Pughe to Price to Adkins in Virginia Native American lines according to the historians of the Powhattan lines.
Anyone with any questions other than MBH is welcome to ask for clairification on anything said here on this thread. DCR

PSS: R.H. Dudley confirms his Haplogroup is I. He is downline of the sons of John Dudley 1505 to Miles Dudley 1530 to William Dudley 1569 to William Dudley of Gulford 1609 ca Dea. William Dudley 1639 to William Dudley III Augus 8 1665 to Jeddidah Dudley Oct 12, 1699 Con. to d Jeddiaiah Dudley March 30 1642 Saybrook Ct. to Jedediah Dudley Oct 31 1785 to Jdeddiah Dudley Nov 3, 1811Con, to Arthur A. Dudley 1862 Dutchess Co, New York (where my grandfather William Rice was born 1860) toOakley W. Dudley March 25, 1888 Dutchess NY to R. H. Dudley to RH Dudley. The Dudley's were in the same part of New York as William Rice 1808 and William Rice Jr 1860. Set- Match Game now confirm the family history of Samuel G. Rice 7th great grandson of Perrot ap Rice 1598 aka John Perrot the Pope Converter who spent the years 1640-1653-54 in Virginia Wilderness trading with Puritans and Native American before becomming a Quaker and leaving behind his DNA is the lines of Jesse Hughes, Robert Hughes the Quaker and the 6 Hughes listed above, The Adkins, Phillips families. DCR 1948

The Premise of this Thread is that both my mother and father come from a common ancesor in which the cousins intermarry across time. Here is the prime example going back to ca 845 AD Baldwin II strong arm Duke of Flanders is brother in law to the builder of Dudley Castle at Roger DeCoursey who married the Dukes Sister. My 8th great grandmother is a Baldwin as shown in the link below making the Strong Arm Duke 31st great grandfather maternal. He is also the 25th great grand father of Robert Dudley 1532 special friend of Queen Elizabeth...following the descent through Perot ap Rice to John Rice of Dedham and Samuel Rice down to me he, Strong Arm Earl of Flanders is my 35th great grandfather and the cousin marriages occur on both sides back to this common ancestor. We have this common thread to the Ancient leaders of the past in Flanders and England and why my father chose my mother of the Tudor line of Descent was to strengthen the Bloodline which was an important topic in 1910 when he was 23 years old.

https://www.geni.com/path/Judith-Baldwin+is+related+to+Baldwin-I-Ir...

I see no reason why I should take you seriously. So I'm not going to.

I have not heard that song in years, Private User. Such a wonderful ditty! So true so often it seems. Susanne

Happy Days!

For the rest of you: Now that I can confirm Perrot ap Rice's son Thomas of Liether as the connection at my confirmed cousins on Family Finder I will be updating this file on Wicki Tree which they put together. Presently 20 degrees from Henry Tudor about to be reduced to 10. DCRp?title=Special:Connection&action=connect&person1Name=Tudor-4&person2Name=Rice-3551

p?title=Special:Connection&action=connect&person1Name=Tudor-4&person2Name=Rice-3551