Sources for Medieval Research

Started by Pam Wilson (on hiatus) on Saturday, October 5, 2019
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This hasn't been mentioned yet, that I'm aware of, so I'll just suggest that Findagrave, with all the ancient cemeteries and monuments, is a great aid in tracking lineages and finding other information about specific people of the Middle Ages.

https://www.findagrave.com/cemetery/search?cemetery-name=&cemet...

Thanks, Debra. Findagrave, as it started out when it was documenting REAL graves, was very helpful. However, now that it lets users create pages for people with no known grave, it's become a site you have to use very carefully and with much critical attention and discernment. Now it's become more than just documenting graves, and users are adding much undocumented and unproven information.

Good point, Pam. I do use it very carefully. I like to see the actual real tombstones, inscriptions, and take note of their locations. I'm not one to throw out the baby with the dirty bathwater, :)

Unfortunately good common sense, judgment, and reason are mostly inborn or at least learned very early in life; yet it's absolutely crucial to have if you're going to do this sort of work. It pains me to presume that most people don't have it.

Even your best and most highly respected sources have serious issues, mistakes, and flaws. I kind of thought that went without saying, among experienced genealogists. But maybe this is a 'school' for amateurs. :D

The best and most respected sources will cite the documents or other sources that they use for their information.

Find-a-Grave mostly doesn't, at least as it comes into my purview. It's like the unsourced family web trees.

Yet unfortunately word of mouth and old gravestones may often be the >only< available sources. At least, until better ones are discovered. If they exist.

We can get really philosophical and ask ourselves if anything is real. I bet there are a few here who might argue that nothing is real. But I wouldn't agree with them.

There are millions of names and relationships found on old tombstones that you'll never find anywhere else (unless you can afford to spend a fortune tracking them down).

I've already paid out something like $30 for one single sheet of digital paper, and another $30 for a single death certificate. There is no way I can afford to 'document' every detail.

But there's more than one way to do an excellent job of it.

http://www.unofficialroyalty.com/royal-burial-sites/

An extensive list of royal burial sites (all of which are loaded with identifying information such as names, etc.).

Likewise, all the old cities of Europe are filled with ancient cemeteries, many of which have been documented rather well (all things considered).

Just trying to be helpful. I'm following this discussion and also have it bookmarked for future reference.

Pam,
I'll be slow for a while, my right hand is in a cast so typing is slow.

Once I get going I would like to work on the Heraldry page is I may, I've got a lot to input there.

Regarding the Medieval Research page, I've deleted most of my previous work on my Welsh ancestors because it was mostly incorrect, Wales is a very complicated genealogy, but the best I've found is The Center for the Study of Ancient Wales by Darrell Walcott, ironically located in Jefferson, TX. This link should be added to the list: http://www.ancientwalesstudies.org/index.html. He focuses on Wales from 400-1300.

As I recall from somewhere I don't now remember, there are three recognized experts on Wales genealogy, Darrell Walcott being one. I will try to "refind" the other two

Pam Wilson (on hiatus) -- I'll add notes on Welsh sources here.

MEDIEVAL WELSH GENEALOGY

We have a great many medieval, or copies of medieval, manuscripts that give Welsh genealogies. Some have been microfilmed; some have not. They are held in such repositories as The National Library of Wales, the College of Arms, and the British Library, as well as being scattered around in various other archives.

These are of course inaccessible, unless you travel to the archives.

There are many transcriptions, though.

The problem is that the manuscripts contradict each other.

This means that you can blithely follow a pedigree, and discover that it doesn't fit at all into the collection of people gathered onto some place like, oh, for instance, Geni.

One of the most easily accessible sources, for instance, is ''Heraldic Visitations of Wales and Part of the Marches Between the Years 1586 and 1613 by Lewys Dwnn'' (1846), Dwnn, Lewys; transcribed and edited with notes by Sir Samuel Rush Meyrick, (2 volumes. Llandovery: William Rees, 1846), https://archive.org/details/HeraldicVisitationsOfWalesAndPartOfTheM...

BUT IT IS HIGHLY PROBLEMATIC. So don't be surprised when you discover that a pedigree on one page is contradicted by a pedigree on the next.

LUCKILY THERE IS HELP

In the 20th century, Peter Bartrum, an English researcher and genealogist who learned Welsh specifically so that he could work with the Welsh manuscripts, published The Welsh Genealogies (this takes three parts, in several volumes -- Early Welsh Genealogical Tracts (1966); Welsh Genealogies AD 300-1400 (1974); Welsh Genealogies AD 1400-1500 (1983)) -- and this is the gold standard in medieval Welsh genealogy.

What he did was to collate the medieval manuscripts, and work out the contradictions. His work includes reference to the manuscripts he used. It is a secondary source, but it is highly reliable, highly respected, and, in such a case, wherein the primary sources are so problematic and contradictory, it is a great gift to us all.

HOWEVER THERE IS ANOTHER PROBLEM

Alas, these volumes are out of print. And if you can find them, they are extraordinarily expensive. You may be able to find them in one of your local libraries. But it's unlikely that any of us have them on our shelves. I don't.

BUT GUESS WHAT THERE IS SOME HELP FOR THIS TOO! ONLY SORT OF ALSO PROBLEMATIC!

Luckily, the University of Aberystwyth has uploaded most of Bartrum's notes -- not the published work, no, but his handwritten pedigrees -- onto the Cadair server.

Yay.

Alas, the Cadair server is unavailable pretty often -- I find it's catch as catch can.

Nevertheless!

I've had a project for three years now; I'm putting the Welsh Genealogies into Geni, with links to Bartrum's notes. So, on the days when Cadair is up, you can actually see Bartrum's handwritten notes.

As for instance -- if you go and visit the profile for Owain Glyndwr ap Gruffudd, Prince of Wales you can see that in the Overview there is a link to the Bartrum pedigree page (sometimes there are several pages for one profile) that included Owain Glyndwr, and if you click on that link, and it's a good day, you can see the pedigree! And if you need help deciphering it, you just message me. No prob.

IS THAT THE END OF THE PROBLEMS? NO! NO, THERE ARE MORE!

Earlier this year, Cadair overhauled the server, or something like that, and it was down for about a month, which made me pretty darn depressed, let me tell you, but then it came back up again, at which point none of the links -- that I had been entering for three years -- would work.

It turns out that this is fixable -- the web address that I had used earlier started out "http," and it needs to be changed, simply, to "https."

Great.

So I'm changing the old addresses as I come across them. If you click on one of my links and it takes you not to a pedigree page but to the Cadair index, the problem is that the address needs to be updated.

Great.

FURTHER HELP! BECAUSE WHY NOT!

So, in essence, Bartrum is the gold standard and we are all grateful for his work.

He did not iron out ALL of the problems with the manuscripts, though.

To that end, Darrell Wolcott has been working with the manuscripts, historical documents, and land documents to work out some of the problems left by Bartrum's work.

As Private User mentions above, Wolcott is one of the important workers in the field -- you can find him at http://www.ancientwalesstudies.org/ -- much of the site is work in progress, but it is extremely useful.

In the same way as I have been entering Bartrum's information into Geni, Steven Mitchell Ferry has been entering Wolcott's work into Geni -- as I do, he puts links into the Overviews of profiles, and you can often see both of us adding Bartrum and Wolcott to a profile, as in this one -- Tangwre verch Gwyn II

That is the News From the Welsh Medieval Geni Thicket.

Do stop by to visit.

But please be very very very careful.

It's a very thorny thicket.

Oh, and by the way -- if you find a place where it looks like things aren't right, in the Welsh Tree, sometimes that is true, and we need to fix things.

But often, what's going on is that the pedigree you are using has some problems, which might have been worked out by Bartrum or Wolcott, and might have been addressed in the Overviews or the curator's notes.

So see if those are helpful.

Thanks!

Private User You're absolutely right about Find a Grave. I've come across a lot of bad info that is on FAG. It's only as good as the info that is posted in it. Kind of like ancestry.com. Use at your own risk, LOL.

Thank you,Anne Brannen. I am part Welsh and need to check my tree and add more. I will be very interested in your findings. Thank you.

Pam Wilson (on hiatus), Livio Scremin, Erica Howton

I think this also be a useful, lots of google books and literature (online) about Medieval of Italy, like a example: Medieval Italy: An Encyclopedia A-Z, by author Christopher Kleinhenz, with some information and biographies, etc...., also can find here and other related and similar books like: Italy in the Central Middle Ages, The Muslims of Medieval Italy, Communes and Despots in Medieval and Renaissance Italy, A Medieval Italian Commune: Siena Under the Nine, 1287-1355, Armies of the Medieval Italian Wars 1125–1325, erc...
* https://www.google.hr/search?q=Medieval+Italy&amp;hl=hr&amp;tbm=bks...
* https://books.google.hr/books?id=E2CTAgAAQBAJ&amp;printsec=frontcov...
How I saw there is also available books for Medieval of Germany, France, etc... , and about early and late medieval periods

Such as this books:

Medieval Germany: An Encyclopedia, Medieval Germany, 1056-1273
* https://www.google.hr/search?tbm=bks&amp;hl=hr&amp;q=Medieval+Germany

* Germany in the High Middle Ages: C.1050-1200, by author Horst Fuhrmann: https://books.google.hr/books?id=Hlapxde55rAC&amp;printsec=frontcov...

* Europe in the Central Middle Ages, 962-1154 by author Christopher Nugent Lawrence Brooke: https://books.google.hr/books?id=Ap0GDAAAQBAJ&amp;printsec=frontcov...

* Danmark and Europa 750-1300 by author Nils Hybel: https://books.google.hr/books?id=njBYWBDrL7cC&amp;printsec=frontcov...

Here some of the Ragman Rolls 1290’s is that far enough back.

https://electricscotland.com/history/articles/ragman_rolls.htm

I found my Veitch on it.

William le Vache del counte de Pebbles

Billie

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