Donald MacDonald, of Harlaw, 8th Lord of the Isles - Wondering if you need to merge 2 Donald sites and 2 sites for his wife? Seem to overlap

Started by Martin "Braxton" Williams, III on Friday, September 13, 2019
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9/13/2019 at 10:33 AM

Donald MacDonald, of Harlaw, 8th Lord of the Isles alternate site for Donald

Each Donald does show different fathers, who appear to be brothers of the same father Angus.

Thanks for looking into this. I am assuming Donalds and wives are same, but slightly different dates. Each Donald showing 8th Lord of the Isles, with same Overview stories.

9/13/2019 at 9:59 PM

They'll merge - but the two Mariotas have no connection - are not “Mothers of...” the same.

Donald MacDonald, of Harlaw, 8th Lord of the Isles [dates ca. 1364-1423]
[wife Mariota Leslie, Countess of Ross, 1363-1429]
[He's my 17th great-grandfather]

He is the great-great-grandfather of:
Donald MacDonald [dates 1358-1423]
[wife Mariota Ross, 1381-1440]
[He's my first cousin 19 times removed]

Private User
9/13/2019 at 11:53 PM

These Donalds seem to be each others cousins. They have different fathers. They can be different persons, and there can be error in others wifes name?

9/14/2019 at 4:00 AM

They are not the same Donald’s, so the overview data for Donald MacDonald, of Harlaw, 8th Lord of the Isles is wrong.

He could have married a Mariota, but she wasn’t https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mariota,_Countess_of_Ross who supposedly had only 2 children: Alexander and Mariota.

Ref: The Scots Peerage. See online

http://www.ebooksread.com/authors-eng/james-balfour-paul/the-scots-...

9/14/2019 at 4:12 AM

Read the “about” for Sir John Ross, 1st Lord Ross of Halkhead

His ancestry from Lords of the Isles does not make sense.

This article describes the earlier Rosses in Renfrewshire.

https://www.electricscotland.com/history/renfrew/chapter10.htm

Private User
9/14/2019 at 8:56 AM

Thank you Erica. I just adore that scottish style text, can not put it in google translator though; I can so hear it in my ear with R's. Have to investigate it a bit more to understand what it is really saying.

9/14/2019 at 4:21 PM

Donald MacDonald, of Harlaw, 8th Lord of the Isles
is the great-great-grandfather of the Donald MacDonald here.

Private User
9/14/2019 at 10:47 PM

I can not find path seeing them as great grandfather/son path?

Eupheme MacRuaridh (Macruari) has both of Ian/fathers of Donalds as husband, then there is text in her profile that says, "Amie, daughter of Ranald, Lord of Garmoran, heiress of Clan Ruairi, of Glengarry. John divorced Amie to m2nd Margaret, daughter of Robert the Second, King of Scotland." John? It is sad that there are no sources mentioned. This needs more investigating. It seems there are some mixed ups and sources needing to be added in the same time.

There are some books, but I do not know if they are available online.

9/15/2019 at 12:26 AM

Private User I know what you mean about the style of writing. The Scots Peerage, luckily, is not only pretty accurate, it’s easy to read.

The point is that it seems to me that this Ross of Renfrewshire was a Norman family, and not from the Gaelic MacDonalds. I don’t want to disconnect yet because we haven’t nailed it yet. Let’s keep looking until we understand better.

9/15/2019 at 12:37 AM

The second paragraph of text in the profile refers to a different person. I can’t find a bad merge, though:

Iain "Fraoch" MacDonald

He was one of the Scotch commissioners appointed to treat with the English, anno 1362.

The year thereafter he was named one of the ambassadors extraordinary to treat with the English, and obtained a safe conduct to go up to that court, anno 1363.

John Ross, the direct ancestor of the family of Halkhead or Hacket or Hawket, received a grant of that estate in the Barony of Renfrew in 1367 from Robert, Earl of Strathearn, afterwards King Robert II of Scotland. Although there is no evidence of a connection between the Halkhead family and the ancient Earls of Ross, King Robert, who married as his 2nd wife, Eupheme, daughter of Hugh, 4th Earl of Ross, describes John Ross, both in the charter of 1367 and in another charter of 30 Mar 1390 as "consanguineus noster". It may be noted that the arms of the Lowland family of Ross of Halkhead, which claimed to be akin to the English family of Ros [of Helmesley], so called from the place of that name in Yorkshire, were clearly derived from its arms (gules 3 water-bougets silver), being: Gold a chevron checkered sable and silver between 3 water-bougets sable, whereas those of the ancient Earls of Ross, a Highland family were: Gules, three lions rampant silver

9/15/2019 at 12:47 AM

The son of Iain Fraoch by an unknown wife would be John (Iain Abrachson) MacDonald of Glencoe (Wife unknown)

Macdonald, Rev. A. and Macdonald Rev. A. (1904). The Clan Donald: Volume 3. Inverness, Scotland. Northern Counties Publishing Company Ltd. http://archive.org/stream/clandonald03macduoft#page/n255/mode/2up

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Macdonald-1876

9/15/2019 at 1:28 AM

Looks like most of the children now showing under Iain Fraoch belong to John MacDonald, Lord of the Isles

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Macdonald-91 Has it as well as Links to TSP and The Clan History

9/21/2019 at 10:39 AM

Thanks for digging into this, and for your input. Sounds like it may take a while to unravel the mystery :)

Private User
9/21/2019 at 12:25 PM

Indeed! Have been reading soooo much, interesting and intriguing history, names and time itself in Scotlands history. Thanks to Erica for providing links!

9/21/2019 at 2:32 PM

I disconnected John Ros of Halkhead, Constable of Renfrew Castle from parents on the grounds the geography makes no sense, and am wondering if the MacDonald name is someone’s theory ... or an old Mis merge.

9/21/2019 at 8:05 PM

I think the dates might be wrong? Have to be careful to fix it right ...

https://digital.nls.uk/histories-of-scottish-families/archive/95255...

Sir John Ross de Halkheid, miles, was one of the ambassadors
to Eugland, to whom a writ of Bafe convoy was granted,
24 Aug. 1473, and dying soon afterwards, was s. by his son,
Sir John Ross, of Halkhead, who eventually became
John, 1st Lord Ross, aud one of the conservators of a treaty
with the English, 20 Sept. 1484, uuder the designation of
"John Rosse de Halkhede, miles.

9/26/2019 at 12:27 PM

Messy. Thanks for the update Erica. I too am enjoying the stories of Scotland...

9/26/2019 at 12:49 PM

This a good quote on his son:

From https://wc.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=jweber&id...

BARONY OF ROSS OF HALKHEAD (I) 1499

JOHN ROSS, of Halkhead (c), co. Renfrew, probably son and heir of Sir John Ross, of the same, heritable Constable of Renfrew Castle, was knighted after 10 August 1450, but before 17 January 1450 ...

So his father is https://wc.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=jweber&id...

Shown with unknown wife / wives and parents.

Citation: Complete Peerage of England Scotland Ireland Great Britain and the United Kingdom, by G. E Cokayne, Sutton Publishing Ltd, 2000 Page: XI:155

9/26/2019 at 12:51 PM

And also the unknown father represents a missing generation to

https://wc.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=jweber&id...

This John Ross, according to CP, was the first at Halkhead, and was clearly the ancestor of the family. There is probably one generation in bewteen.

Name: John ROSS , 1st Laird of Halkhead, Sir 1
Sex: M
Birth: ABT 1335 in Scotland
Death: AFT 30 MAR 1390 in Hawkhead, Renfrewshire, Scotland 1

9/26/2019 at 12:59 PM

https://www.clanmacfarlanegenealogy.info/genealogy/TNGWebsite/getpe... Takes it back further.

1. Godfrey Ross, sheriff of Ayr.
2. John Ross, of Halkhead.
3. Sir John Ross, of Halkhead, d aft 12/1413 (citing Stirnet)
4. Sir John Ross, of Halkead, d aft 8/1447 (citing Stirnet)
5. Sir John Ross, 1st Lord Ross of Halkhead, Sheriff of Linlithgow d 1501

Private User
9/26/2019 at 1:53 PM

Unfortunately, due to the language, some parts go beyond my comprehension. Terminology is quite different in that part of history and with some little details I struggle with foreign language asI can't find a proper translation. The basics are well understood and absolutely fascinating.

Wonder if there would be any more information about ancestors of
John Ros of Halkhead, Constable of Renfrew Castle in Burke's Peerage & Baronetage, 106th Edition, Charles Mosley Editor-in-Chief, 1999
or
Complete Peerage of England Scotland Ireland Great Britain and the United Kingdom, by G. E Cokayne, Sutton Publishing

There are quite a lot of info here: (not sure if this page already here) of Ross:

https://quod.lib.umich.edu/e/ecco/004896980.0001.000/1:212?rgn=div1...

VI. Sir GODFRIDE de Ross, who ob∣tained
a safe conduct from king Edward III.
to go up to England,*anno 1335.

He was appointed one of the ambassadors
extraordinary to the court of England, to
treat super negotiis David de Bruce,*&c. anno
1358, and is then designed domin•• Godsri∣dus
de Ross, miles, &c.

He died about the year 1360, leaving is∣sue
a son,

VII. JOHN de Ross, who succeeded him
in all his lands in the shire of Renfrew, and is
the first we have found designed by the title
of Halkhead.

He was one of the Scotch commissioners
appointed to treat with the English,*anno
1362.

The year thereafter he was named one of
the ambassadors extraordinary to treat with
the English,* and obtained a safe conduct to go
up to that court, anno 1363.

He died before the year 1392, and was suc∣ceeded
by his son,

VIII. Sir JOHN, who, in a donation of A∣dam
Fullerton of Crosby to the monastery of
Paisley,* is designed Johannes Ross, dominus de
Halkhead, anno 1392.

In a donation of sir John Blair of Adam∣ston
to the same monastery,*dominus Johannes
de Ross, miles, dominus de Halkhead, is a wit∣ness,
anno 1397.

He married Agnes, daughter and sole heir∣ess
of sir John Melvile of that ilk,* by whom
he got a great accession to his estate, particu∣larly
the lands, barony, and castle of Melvile,
in Mid Lothian, &c.

By her he had a son,

IX. Sir JOHN Ross of Halkhead, who
succeeded him, and was appointed heretable
constable of the castle of Renfrew,* with pow∣er
to uplift the customs at the principal fairs
of the burgh; which office continued long in
the family.

He got a charter under the great seal,* of
the lands and barony of Melvile, as heir to
his mother, anno 1401; and the family, in
consequence of this marriage, have continued
to quarter the arms of Melvile with those of
Ross ever since.

He died in the beginning of the reign of
king James II. and was succeeded by his
son,

X. Sir JOHN ROSS of Halkhead,* who hav∣ing
acquired the lands of Tarbat and Auchen∣bath
from Robert Ross of Tarbat, upon his
resignation, he got a charter of confirmation,
under the great seal,* of these lands, anno 1450.

He accompanied William earl of Douglas
into England, anno 1451; for which he got
a safe conduct from king Henry VI.

He being a man of parts, was appointed one
of the Scotch commissioners to treat with the
English,*anno 1459, and is then designed do∣minus
Johannes Ross, dominus de Halkhead, &c.

Page 582

9/26/2019 at 4:22 PM

Excellent info all! Will have to review and consider with a clearer head tomorrow. Thanks for all your work and expertise. You folks rock! Loving the journey here and the stories.

9/26/2019 at 4:46 PM

Breaking it out into paragraphs helped. Burke’s is almost as florid - the Scots Peerage is a wonderful read, however.

9/26/2019 at 4:50 PM

Here’s Sir Godfrey Ross, sheriff of Ayr

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Ross-9932

https://books.google.com/books?id=bpnmAAAAMAAJ&lpg=PA514&ot...

And we have to be careful not to make un warranted parent / son connections in Geni: it was a clan, and assumption of titles / property / in these early days?

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