It's time to compare John Dudley Y DNA to His son Ambrose and Robert Dudley 1532 my 2nd cousins x 15 removed

It's past my bedtime, but I'm kind of excited to share this first:

Robert Royce, of New London

https://www.packrat-pro.com/ships/winthrop.htm

Robert Royce/Ryse ("prob of Exning, Suffolk") and wife, Elizabeth were members of the Winthrop Fleet along with my 7th g-grandmother, Judith Smead, her husband William, and their child (yes, I've seen ample evidence that like her brother Israel (a merchant) and others of the Stoughton family, she sailed back and forth across the Atlantic on more than one occasion, and not always accompanied by her older Denman children. (She also had a stepson living in Leyton or Amsterdam, Holland, Humphrey Denman, whose mother was Ann Travers). Israel and Thomas Stoughton with their wives were also members of this same group, the Winthrop Fleet.

AND, Robert Royse is the 11th g-grandson of Rhys ap Tudur. Can't beat that with a stick, if you can trace his descendants. And even with a few duplicates, he still has several sons, all MPs.

But I suppose ya'll already knew about him?

https://www.geni.com/path/Rhys-ap-Tudur-of-Deheubarth+is+related+to...

Rhys ap Tudur, of Deheubarth
→ Gruffydd ap Rhys
his son → Nest verch Gruffydd
his daughter → Gruffudd ap Ifor Bach, Lord of Senghenydd
her son → Hywel Felyn ap Gruffudd
his son → Gwenllian verch Hywel Felyn
his daughter → Einion Prys
her son → Mathew Prys
his son → Einion Prys
his son → Isaac Prys
his son → Robert Prys, MP
his son → William Prys
his son → Thomas Royce, of Martock
his son → Robert Royce, of New London
his son

Hello.

Robert Royce / Ryse was Catherine Howard's 2nd cousin thrice removed, and Henry VIII's 3rd cousin 4x removed.

https://www.geni.com/path/Robert-Royce-of-New-London+is+related+to+...

Robert Royce, of New London
→ Mary Royce, of Little Waldingfield
his mother → Mary Appleton
her mother → Edward Isaacke, Esq.
her father → Margery Isaacke
his mother → Sir Thomas Haute, Kt.
her father → Sir William Haute
his father → Joan Wydeville
his mother → Richard Woodville, 1st Earl Rivers
her brother → Elizabeth Woodville, Queen Consort of England
his daughter → Elizabeth of York
her daughter → Henry VIII, King of England
her son

Their common ancestress was Joan Wydeville, daughter of Richard Wydeville, Esq., Sheriff of Kent, Constable of the Tower. Her brother was Richard Woodville, 1st Earl Rivers, whose wife was Jacquetta of Luxembourg, Duchess of Bedford, the daughter of Pierre I de Luxembourg, Count of Saint-Pol.

In addition to Henry VIII, Robert Royce / Ryse was also the 11th g-grandson of Edward I "Longshanks", King of England.

https://www.geni.com/path/Robert-Royce-of-New-London+is+related+to+...

Robert Royce, of New London
→ Mary Royce, of Little Waldingfield
his mother → Thomas Appleton, Esq.
her father → William Appleton
his father → Robert Appleton
his father → Margary Appleton
his mother → Robert Crane, Jr.
her father → Robert Crane, Sr.
his father → Anne Forrecy
his mother → Baron William Ferrers
her father → Isabel de Verdun
his mother → Elizabeth de Clare
her mother → Joan of Acre
her mother → Edward I "Longshanks", King of England
her father

But perhaps this has all been covered before, idk.

Your finding him is new!

Hopefully is all good on Geni because we cleaned up New England Rice & Royce families doing Dale’s Quest.

We have a New England Gateway project based on Richardson’s book. Maybe it’s Appleton he traced?

As always, walk it through, check the links. Leo’s database doesn’t have parents for him:

https://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00538255&tree=LEO

But does have a good reference:

Ancestors of American Presidents, 1995, Boston, Massachusetts , Roberts, Gary Boyd. 27

You should be able to find it at the Famous Kin site:

https://famouskin.com/famous-kin-menu.php?name=5270+robert+royce

https://famouskin.com/family-group.php?name=5270+robert+royce&a...

“Claims that Robert Royce was from Martock, Somersetshire, England and had a wife there whose maiden name was Sims has been disproved.”

So - what do we think?

https://www.geni.com/path/Dale-C-Rice+is+related+to+John-Dudley?fro...

Here is the Dudley line to my maternal line. Long sought after but patience has been my friend for these last 8 years of near daily research.. This dudley John, born ca 1850 is a 23/25 match on Y to me The Sutton Line at H1956 7
&57 on Family Tree are 60/67 markers (we seem to have a variable at marker 442 28 alleles or 29) repeats so you can decide for yourself if I have exagerated anything my father told me by looking for yourself. Following Ochims Rasor the simplest solution is usually the correct one...and I put these cousins forward as my Dudly and Sutton cousins because the are Sir Robert Dudley's cousins exactly as my father told me in 1978. The truth is, as fantastic as it seems Robert Dudley the Queens favorite had many women in his life and one of them gave birth to a boy John Perratt II 1565 as my Dad told me. I found him at Oxford/Grey's in early in the first days of my search using traditonal citation of records. He was not in the tree anywhere until I got him into the discussion. So now we come full circle to Dudley and Sutton cousins who match my DNA fairly close but as many cousins do there is slight variation between them their DNA Values revert back to the Scion Line as I proved to Dr. Manfred Kayser of the Netherlands in 2013 sending him my research on Le Teuton de Sutton and the English Lords/Family who descend from his line...one of which I found goes through Henry IV to Owen Tudor. Great God in Heaven Owen is likely not a Tudor: He's most likely a descendant of John Of Gaunt and Edward III because of the names on the List of Le Teuton de Sutton including my cousins: Blounts, Perrot, Baskerville, Percy, Rice, and others I was able to show Dr. Kayser in black and white the variations between cousin lines always revert back to the Scion line when the cousins differ and they do.. When a grandson differers from the Scion line the cousins lines agree in the allele repeats. Now that you have in 5 min. a summary of 8 years worth of research done here at Geni and quoted around the world in over 400 papers I am told: You can decide for yourselves if my First and Second cousin x 10 removed Sir Robert Dudley is my fantacy now showing in Geni's files or not. I have decided the Preponderance of the science and actual Geni files are enough for me and I say it confirms my family history in Spades. So now you can see it Geni has it printed just so and I commend all of you who may have stuck out reading this. DCR 1948 9th great grandson of Sir Robert Dudley 8th great grandson John Perratt II 1565 and 7th great grandson of Perrot ap Rice 1598 .

Dale - your relationship link says “John Dudley is Dale C. Rice's 13th cousin thrice removed!”

So I’m confused. The common ancestor would be Sir Thomas Willoughby, Kt., of Parham I think?

I did notice the link has “Bobeau.” Look at all the Bobo’s in the Howton tree:

Martha Ann Howton

Yay! Thanks for being so encouraging and kind, Erica!

I realize there is a lot more work to do, but I'm so happy to find this Robert Royce/Ryse who is also both my 5th cousin 9x AND my 1st cousin 9x's father-in-law.

The latter (1st cousin, Sarah Royce, daughter of Judge Samuel Lathrop and Elizabeth Scudder) was the granddaughter of John Scudder and Elizabeth Stoughton Chamberlain.

So, whether or not this Robert Royce is Dale's ancestor (and I wouldn't be the least surprised if he was) -- I have discovered an interesting kinship within my own family of Colonials.

Yay!

The Famous Kin website is a new one for me, thanks so much for sharing that link, Erica.

The picture of the Royce House is lovely, Erica, I'm so glad you found and posted it!

Robert Royce is Dale's 5th cousin 11x removed, through his maternal lineage.

I haven't even begun to look at the Royce sons.

Clarification needed on Thomas Royce, of Martock

Death date 1600
Marriage date 1604
Robert Royce birth date c. 1605

She married a Zombie? I don't think so!

Here's my link to the Willoughbys: Margaret de Willoughby

Early Lincolnshire seems to have been nearly as inbred as the Eastern Shore. :-D

https://www.geni.com/path/Thomas-Dudley-Governor-of-Massachusetts-B...

Thomas Dudley, Governor of Massachusetts Bay Colony
→ Capt. Roger Roger Dudley
his father → Capt Sir Henry Dudley
his father → Cicely Sutton, Baroness Chandos
his mother → Thomas Grey, 1st Marquess of Dorset
her father → Elizabeth Woodville, Queen Consort of England
his mother → Richard Woodville, 1st Earl Rivers
her father → Joan Wydeville
his sister → Sir William Haute
her son → Sir Thomas Haute, Kt.
his son → Margery Isaacke
his daughter → Edward Isaacke, Esq.
her son → Mary Appleton
his daughter → Mary Royce, of Little Waldingfield
her daughter → Robert Royce, of New London
her son

https://www.geni.com/path/Robert-Dudley-1st-Earl-of-Leicester+is+re...

Robert Royce, of New London is Robert Dudley, 1st Earl of Leicester's third cousin twice removed!
Robert Dudley, 1st Earl of Leicester
→ Jane Guildford, Duchess of Northumberland
his mother → Sir Edward Guildford, Kt., MP
her father → Sir Richard Guildford
his father → Bennet Isaak
his sister → William Isaacke
her son → Edward Isaacke, Esq.
his son → Mary Appleton
his daughter → Mary Royce, of Little Waldingfield
her daughter → Robert Royce, of New London
her son

Thomas Dudley, Governor of Massachusetts Bay Colony is Robert Dudley, 1st Earl of Leicester's third cousin twice removed!
Robert Dudley, 1st Earl of Leicester
→ John Dudley, 1st Duke of Northumberland, 1st Earl of Warwick
his father → Elizabeth Dudley, 6th Baroness Lisle
his mother → Edward Grey, 1st Viscount Lisle
her father → Sir John Grey, 7th Lord Ferrers of Groby
his brother → Thomas Grey, 1st Marquess of Dorset
his son → Cicely Sutton, Baroness Chandos
his daughter → Capt Sir Henry Dudley
her son → Capt. Roger Roger Dudley
his son → Thomas Dudley, Governor of Massachusetts Bay Colony
his son

Rhys ap Tudur, of Deheubarth is John Dudley, 1st Duke of Northumberland, 1st Earl of Warwick's 13th great grandfather!
John Dudley, 1st Duke of Northumberland, 1st Earl of Warwick
→ Elizabeth Dudley, 6th Baroness Lisle
his mother → Elizabeth Talbot, Baroness Of Lisle
her mother → John Talbot, Jr., 1st Viscount Lisle
her father → John Talbot, 1st Earl of Shrewsbury
his father → Richard Talbot, 4th Baron Talbot
his father → Gilbert Talbot, 3rd Lord of Talbot
his father → Sir Richard Talbot, 2nd Lord Talbot, of Goodrich
his father → Sir Gilbert Talbot, 1st Lord Talbot
his father → Sir Richard Talbot, 4th Lord
his father → Gwenllian verch Rhys Mechyll
his mother → Rhys Fychan/ Mechyll ap Rhys Gryg, Lord Dynevor
her father → Rhys Gryg ap Rhys
his father → Rhys ap Gruffudd, Prince of South Wales
his father → Gruffydd ap Rhys
his father → Rhys ap Tudur, of Deheubarth
his father

Rhys ap Tudur Fychan

Rhys ap Tudur Fychan, the 6th g-grandson of Rhys ap Tudur of Deheubarth (Henry VIII's 11th g-grandfather), was Henry VIII's 1st cousin 5x removed; Robt. Dudley's 4th cousin 6x; and Robt. Royce's 5th cousin 9x removed -- through his mother's lineage.

So Maven was right about both points she made this morning: 1) Robt. Royce's paternity is a bit sketchy and vague; and 2) there was quite a lot of intermarriage among the landed families of England.

Robert Royce, of New London is Rhys ap Tudur Fychan's fifth cousin 9 times removed!
Rhys ap Tudur Fychan
→ Tudur Fychan ap Gronwy Fychan
his father → Goronwy ap Tudur Hen
his father → Tudur Hen ap Gronwy
his father → Gronwy ap Ednyfed Fychan
his father → Gwenllian verch Rhys
his mother → Rhys Gryg ap Rhys
her brother → Rhys Fychan/ Mechyll ap Rhys Gryg, Lord Dynevor
his son → Rhys Fychan/ Ieuanc ap Rhys Mechyll
his son → Margred . verch Rhys Ieuanc
his daughter → Gruffudd ap Madog Crupl, o'r Rhuddalt
her son → Gruffydd Fychan ap Gruffydd, Lord of Glyndwrdy
his son → Lowri verch Gruffudd Fychan
his daughter → Angharad Puleston
her daughter → Rose Trevor
her daughter → Margaret Whetehill (Worsley)
her daughter → Sir Richard Whetehill
her son → Margaret Isaacke
his daughter → Mary Appleton
her daughter → Mary Royce, of Little Waldingfield
her daughter → Robert Royce, of New London
her son

I beg your pardon, Dale. Robert Royce's paternity is not at all sketchy, as I showed earlier this morning. That's a long line of father to son descent:

Rhys ap Tudur, of Deheubarth
→ Gruffydd ap Rhys
his son → Nest verch Gruffydd
his daughter → Gruffudd ap Ifor Bach, Lord of Senghenydd
her son → Hywel Felyn ap Gruffudd
his son → Gwenllian verch Hywel Felyn
his daughter → Einion Prys
her son → Mathew Prys
his son → Einion Prys
his son → Isaac Prys
his son → Robert Prys, MP
his son → William Prys
his son → Thomas Royce, of Martock
his son → Robert Royce, of New London
his son

Prys being the English form of ap Rhys. Later the ap was dropped.

Robert Royce, of New London is my third great aunt's fourth great grandfather.

Private User I went through the Royce Ancestry last night & it doesn’t work.

Robert Royce, of New London Cannot have been the son of a man died before he was born, so I’ve disconnected. If there’s proof we can put him back.

The children of William Apreece are shown in the pedigree of ap Rees of Brecknock & there’s no son Thomas Royce, of Martock

https://books.google.com/books?id=mXkgAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA126&lpg...

Well, it was good while it lasted. ;)

I should have guessed, Thomas Royce of Martock was disconnected from all parentage this morning (perhaps for sound reasons, idk).

But there is still enough here to work with the fact checking on this line.

I see, but you wouldn't treat "ca." 1605 as if it were exact. So the other evidence must have convinced you to do it. I'll take a look at it, thank you for explaining your actions.

Hello Ms. Denman: I am sorry I did not give a proper salutation this morning as I typed away on my all blue Dudley cousin connection to John Dudley 1850. I am fascinated by Tudor/Meridith connections at Rhys ap Tudor and indeed he is a cousin to my Rhys ap Thomas personl vanity page on Facebook. I became aware of those very ancient connections early on in my searches but as I have been told many times: They are so distant that after 20 times removed it's more historical context than family/blood context. So glad you are revisiting the Robert Royce connections as well. Yes Ms. Erica we are indeed cousins as you find Royce among the relatives of Edmund Rice there are others that pop up as well. I am especially drawn to the ap Rice/Howard Connection wherein Katherine Howard aunt to both Catherine Howard and Anne Boleyn plays such a central role in the down line Rice/Bridgewater and Button Family. My maternal line connects to all of them at 6th cousin as I recall. I will point out that Thomas Price is listed as a son of Lady Bridgewater in her marriage to first husband Griffeth 1507 ap Gruffed ap Rhys ap Thomas has only three children acknowledged by Burkes Pedigree: His son Griffeth, his daughter Agness ap Rice and another Daughter Elizabeth Price who marries a Griffeth. So Katherine Howard had 3 children by Griffeth not 4. Thomas is the son of Henry Rice of Newton son of William Rice 1522/ illegitimate son of Griffeth 1508 and his to be sister in law: Thomasine Price who married John Rice brother/ or uncle? of Griffeth 1508. I bring that up because all the research I have done links Thomas Henry Rice 1552 (named as Lady Bridgewaters son here on Genie for the last 3 or 4 years was born 20 years after Griffeth 1508 was executed on Tower Hill 1531 and his lands siezed causing Katherine Howard to marry Bridgewater and raise cain in the Courts of Henry Tudor VIII. So Thomas ap Rice born 1552 can't be her son and is not named in Burkes Peerage. I have complained about this but to no avail. Do have a look if you have time. His brother shares a nearly identical Henry Thomas ap Rice and the two men shared a woman as wife...Margaret Baker as I recall. The younger brother of the two ends up with her and she is my candidate for mother of Edmund Rice 1594. ( I know it's not proved but Edmund is my 6th cousin and we do share common DNA up through marker 15 or so then he drops way off at 15/ of 37 markers. DCR

I don't recall saying Robert Royce was Sketchy Ms. Denman, If I did I meant: "COMPLICATED". so sorry for using the wrong descriptor. DCR

Ms. Erica: The most notable connection that I share with John Dudley 1850 is he is listed on Family Tree with 23/25 Y match to me: Even at that distance it's enough to link the Horizons of myself Dudley and Robert Sutton 1637 at 60/67 or 59/67 markers on Y. Since that's all I can do to indicate that Robert Dudley 1532 as my 2nd cousin is also my 9th great grandfather by unknown woman. DCR

responding to the 4:50 PM: I have not used that site and don't know of it till now. I will look as you suggest. Preponderance of the Evidence is used in courts of law when there is no Capital Crime involved...and we are solving mysteries here. You are free to do as you wish. I as a great grandson with maybe 9 years left or so, and I will not waste my time in those decades of fruitless verification looking for missing paper. I simply would simply die without knowing.... SO, I will continue to use the DNA as my guide and Shortcut...and since I know Anne Hackley was a Folsome /Grainger as my father said...she ranks at the top of the heap of who , What, When, Where, and How. You may search as you wish....I will cut across the valley of time and arrive hopefully at the same location as the missing paper trail. DCR 1948

Dale C. Rice --

I'm having a great deal of trouble following this.

You say: "I will point out that Thomas Price is listed as a son of Lady Bridgewater in her marriage to first husband Griffeth 1507 ap Gruffed ap Rhys ap Thomas has only three children acknowledged by Burkes Pedigree: His son Griffeth, his daughter Agness ap Rice and another Daughter Elizabeth Price who marries a Griffeth. So Katherine Howard had 3 children by Griffeth not 4."

I gather you mean, by Lady Bridgewater, Lady Katherine Daubeney, Countess of Bridgewater. She was married, indeed, to Sir Rhys ap Gruffydd who was beheaded in 1532. On Geni, Katherine Howard has three children, not four, by Rhys ap Gruffudd, So that's ok.

You also say: "I bring that up because all the research I have done links Thomas Henry Rice 1552 (named as Lady Bridgewaters son here on Genie for the last 3 or 4 years was born 20 years after Griffeth 1508 was executed on Tower Hill 1531 and his lands siezed causing Katherine Howard to marry Bridgewater and raise cain in the Courts of Henry Tudor VIII. So Thomas ap Rice born 1552 can't be her son and is not named in Burkes Peerage."

Well, of course he couldn't be her son. And he isn't, on Geni; here he is, actively not being her son on Geni at the moment: Henry (or Thomas) Rice

You say that you have complained about this to no avail, but since what you were complaining about isn't on Geni, it would make sense if there wasn't any avail.

Perhaps I have misunderstood something.

I reviewed Henry (or Thomas) Rice last night as well.

Nothing has changed since the 2014 notes (I added more links)

“Parents unknown. Name is dubious.”

—-

Please note: Many secondary sources say he was the father of Deacon Edmund Rice. However, Edmund Rice's parents are unknown.

Several internet-based genealogical sources claim royal ancestry of Edmund and his descendants. These claims of royal ancestry with connection to Rhys ap Gruffydd (c 1508-1531) of Wales and his son William Rice (1522-1588) of Buckinghamshire are most certainly in error. All these claims of royal ancestry have been traced by Gary Boyd Roberts and others to a 1911 book By the Name of Rice written and self-published by Charles Elmer Rice of Alliance, Ohio. This book contains many errors and discrepancies and should not be relied upon as a genealogical source.

Also, please note that middle names were almost completely unknown at this place and time. This man was almost certainly named either Henry or Thomas, but not both.

Also please do not confuse with Henry Rice.

——

In other words, these are attempts to create pedigrees for Edmund Rice.

But there’s a simple way to show Deacon Edmund Rice on Geni, and that is to follow the guidance of the The Edmund Rice (1638) Association. This is a well vetted organization that sponsors DNA studies etc.

There is no known genetic connection between him & Robert Royce.

I should also note that Robert Roice of Boston of the Winthrop Fleet was a different person from Robert Royce of Connecticut.

Savage muddled them up.

Erica, Thank You for clearing that up. Omg, I realized it too late. And had you not steered me in the right direction, I'd still be wondering where he is. :D

It’s really good to revisit these. Reminds me of the good old days peeling myself off Welsh pedigrees. :):)

Haha, yes I was 'looking at' (not exactly "reading") Welsh pedigrees today. I enjoy the adventure of searching really obscure old records and then 'trying' to make sense of them. Some people work crosswords or jigsaw puzzles, and this is my thing lately.