It's time to compare John Dudley Y DNA to His son Ambrose and Robert Dudley 1532 my 2nd cousins x 15 removed

That needed a lot of cleanup !

Judge Richard Parrott, Sr.

For Maven B. Helms: Susanna Dudley

Since you could not find my Uncle E.E. Stevens in relation to Dudley. DCR

https://www.geni.com/path/Ernest-E-Stevens-of-the-WPA+is+related+to...

The insider information that came to my father came directly from Dudleys as in Ma. Dudley who's Widow married my 6th great grandfather's Foster Father (John Allin) of Dedham. Just fyi Sir John Perrot supported Protestants against the wishes of His Queen Mary I. He actually took refuge in France for a while evading her. In any event ministers like John Allin (PURITANS) were very much his concern and gave them financial support at Carew Castle.

Well *OF COURSE* I couldn't find someone whose name is NOT "Ernest Stevens Crosby", as you first stated him to be. If you give people the *wrong name*, they CAN'T FIND THE PERSON. *** DUH!!! ***

So, he's your father's sister's husband (not a blood relationship), the Crosby connection is two generations back on the distaff (female) side, the Dudley connection is *five* generations back and by marriage (not a blood relationship), and I don't know why you think Y-DNA could possibly prove *anything*.

You continue to tell me that my father's information is wrong: That Perrot ap Rice can't be the father of John Rice 1624 of Dedham even though Perrot's of France at Thomas Perrot are almost all R1b Haplogroup. Why is that? And do the only Perrot's on the Perrot page contain so few I-1 linkages as pointed out by the manager of the page? He told me early on in the search that only 3 other files and his and mine are Perrot Connected as I-1. As I have explained....Perratt II was only fostered by Sir John and was not his biological son. This family saga is on the edge of possibly changing the History of the English Civil War in Wales 1638-40 and Perrot ap Rice's Haplogroup can only pass to this sons Thomas of Liether proved to be met by RICE HUGHES in Virginia and passing that DNA along to his down line sons. If Thomas Price is Perrot ap Rice's son we have what J. Swanstroom said I had to find...a brother's/ or son's DNA that I match. Please don't tell me that RICE Hughes is not Perrot ap RICE. You hunger for paper when that can be forged...but Blood cannot be forged and we have Pughe/Price/Atkins lined up after his arrival 1652 and land granted to Rice Hughes of the James River March 2, 1652. Please s top changing the subject. Stay with one set of facts. I am trying to answer every question to the best I can using the one hour conversation of 1978 as my source of Information. DNA is the only real measure of blood transfer...no matter what lies are told at court and fed to the public for 400 years, Right? Paper is only as good as the persons who write it as you shouted at me over Pembrookshire journals. The Author said John Perrot Salvadged a French Merchant Ship Havorford Harbor August 29 exactly 9 mos. before the Rice boy was born May 5, 1630. So John Perrot not Sir James Perrot was doing the work on the ship later called the SPARROW which brought my 6th great grandfather to Dedham. I have no further proof except my face is that of Henry Tudor King Hal VIII and my sister's face is that of Richard III x 14 removed as his 2nd cousin by Cecily Neville. My other's sister face is the identical face of Queen Elizabeth I and Elizabeth Tailboys and my Nephew is the exact image of Louis VIIII of France. Because we have 4 lines of Tudor blood in our veins....you tell me I am wrong over and over But you will never ever change our DNA Ms. Helms, as our father chose our mother exactly because she descends from the Chalants of Chester Co. Pen. and Windsor Castle (Cousins of the BLounts). DCR

AHEM! It's YOU who are constantly changing the subject and the story, and you have a lot of nerve accusing *me* of what *you* are doing.

You REALLY REALLY REALLY don't understand that you CAN'T just grab two names, mash them together, and insist they are the same person - you have to PROVE that they are, with a great deal of documentation. You also can't just make stuff up - like a "birth date" for John Rice of Dedham, WHICH WE DO NOT HAVE ANY EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER FOR - AND SOME EVIDENCE AGAINST, and claim that proves *anything*.

Let me see: Perrot ap Rice "was" Sir John Perrot's biological son, now he's only a foster son; he "was" John Perrot the Quaker, who "was" John Perrot of Nansemond (until they were proven to be three different people), now he "is" Rice Hughes (huh? How? Why? When? Where's the evidence?)

Blah blah blah. The more you rant, the clearer it is that you're just blowing smoke.

For Ms. Erica: My mother's cousin line to Pruitt and Pruitt is the 4th ggson of Dr. Richard Perrett of Virgina: Samuel Pruitt#

Samuel Pruitt

POSTING PRIVATE MESSAGES PUBLICLY ***IS*** WRONG!!!!!!!

That message to you was ****PRIVATE***** and NOT intended for all of Geni to see!!!!!

HOW! DARE! YOU!

To Mis Cheley Hokanson: we connect at my 8th great grandfather Perratt II 1565 this fyi and sent with best regards cousin.https://www.geni.com/path/Cheley-Hokanson+is+related+to+John-Perrot...

Ms. Hokanson: As to notes, yes I have two 3 ring binders full of the Geni ancestry links all in blue for the most part. Just fyi: My mother is A Howard Great Granddaughter at Thomas Howard, she is also Ralph Nevill's 14th gggrandaughter, therefore, cousin to both Edward IV and Richard III she is 17th ggd of John of Gaunt and we are descended from Rhys ap Twdwddr or Meridith but so far back it really has no DNA bearing on why all my brother's and sisters look like the Tudor/ Valois Kings and Queens. It was his cosmic joke on we kids I suppose that his brood of 7 born on the Nebraska Plains were so deeply connected to John Lackland and Margaret Beaufort Owen Tudor etc. I am now trying to tell this family story as I found them online over the past 8 years on the voyage my 6th ggfather John Rice 1624 made to get to his mother in 1638. Eash story which I found and reported to here to the Curators were laughed and scoffed at but each can be looked up individually beginning with Owen Tudor's arrival and subsequent life in the court of Henry IV Bolling broke and Henry V marrying his rellect: Catherine de Valois. From there I intend to move onto the field of Cloth of Gold and Henry VIII finding his lifelong servant and Laundress: Beatrice (TUDOR- Gardiner) who's son William born 9 mos. after a meeting on the field of Cloth of Gold as the Laundress of Father Rhys ap Thomas and his wife attending their needs: The king demanded and got her and placed her with Princess Mary's household. Princess Mary paid for Beatrice's son's education at the Priory in Wales on the Marches at Durham, and gave 30 yards of Silk to his sister Mary born 1530 and married into the Thomas Perkins family. All recorded in the Parliment on line records under household accounts. The records show Mary paid for William ap Rice's expenses till age 16 when became a member of groomsmen and later married her lady Barbara Fulde and to whom she gave two mannor homes one at Medmenham for their support during her assention crisis. There are other stories to tell but I wanted you to know this is not a game to me...I've spent time doing this instead of painting and I love to paint so soon I should be able to put all of this and my Tudor Times board game to rest. DCR 1948

https://www.geni.com/ Transferring William Perrot or John Perrot II is not working but you are my cousin and therefore theirs. DCR

You are 5th cousin x 15 remvoed to my 8thggfather John Perratt II 1665 and brother William Perrot son of Sir John Perrot and Sybil John Perrot.

Someone is messing with these files as the one says in red one of these files does not exist when I have your file linked to Perrot William or foster brother Perratt II 1565. Both are sons of Sir John Perrot on Geni for years and years. Very odd considering what's been happening here for the last week. DCR

This discussion has gotten out of hand.

I am requesting it be closed.

Where is the evidence that Anne Hackley was a widow?

We don’t know her husband’s death date?

Where is the evidence she emigrated?

Why would you present a speculation in your family book as anything other than speculation?

I should mention there is no evidence supporting John Rice as a foster son of Rev Allin of Dedham, and we don’t know when John Rice arrived. He could have been an adult. My guess is an indentured servant so between 11 - 14.

But don’t put my guesses in your family book!

This is Katherine Allin widow of Gov Dudley of the Mass Bay Colony.

“We know that Perrot ap Rice did not die as Curators made it up to fit their fantacy “
Incorrect. No one made anything up. It’s that there is no evidence supporting your story.

“and that he delivered my 6th great grandfather to Dedham Ma. into the care of Reverend John Allin”

There is no evidence supporting this. I should know, because it was partly my speculation. :):)

“who later married the Widow of Governor Dudley.”

This is a fact.

The speculation had nothing to do with John Rice origins. The “theory” is that Ann Hackley & John Rice, one or both, more likely Ann, was a servant in Katherine’s household, and she may have played matchmaker. Just a guess. Dedham was a small community with no outsiders.

My father said she was A) Widow B) older by 20 years or more C)Folsome/ Grainger descent. The only female Hackley is the woman married to David Hackley of Isle of Wight. There are no death dates for her husband and had only two children when she was 19 and 20. She fits the description on 3 out of 4 conditions I am looking for and that is 75% of the question: Preponderance of the evidence. We and should look for her passage to Dedham as the Ann Hackley that was mentioned came from somewhere other than Dedham according to Curators 8 years ago. I am happy with the fulfillment of my Father's Grainger/ Folsome line in David Hackley's widow. DCR 1948

J. Swanstrom found the evidence of My 6th great grandfather residing in the care of Reverend John Allin..That's never been questioned before... and where would a 13 or 14 year old stay in Dedham without mother or father? He was left with Reverend Allin. You may want to check with J.S. on that I can only remember so much of those discussions 5 years later. DCR

I would really like to see it toned down for Dale's sake, but I hope this important and interesting discussion remains open, because the OP has been consistently courteous throughout and isn't at fault here.

Anyone who doesn't like it only has to ignore. It's so simple and easy, and happens all the time with lots of other discussions.

Dale C. Rice There are several negative comments from you about Geni volunteer curators in this discussion, and that is why I requested the closure of the discussion.

——

As you know, my focus area as a curator is Colonial America. I am most knowledgeable about arrivers to New England, and I’m stringent as I notice it for Geni. “Preponderance of the evidence” is not what we strive for on Geni; rather, it is the Genealogical Proof Standard:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genealogical_Proof_Standard

So - you have a theory about Ann (Maudlin) Hackley. You have queried about her daughter Anne Cook previously, and did not read her marriage data that was researched and in her profile, ruling her out as your Ann (Hackley) Rice. We also discussed and agreed it seemed less likely a woman with married daughters was not as likely to emigrate. And there is no evidence she was a widow.

So to me, it’s an interesting research note, suggesting a Hackley family in the area. A lead worth pursuing. But not the same person.

Have you thought about a FindMyPast account into English Records?

Re: the care of Rev Allin. I remember the discussion, that’s why I rephrased it. Justin did “not” say John Rice was in his care from infancy as a foster child. !!

We were talking about the importance of Rev Allin in this community in Dedham, and felt John Rice must have been known to him. So we thought about how that could have come about.

It’s all summarized clearly in your project if you want to review it.

https://www.geni.com/projects/John-Rice-of-Dedham-Ancestry/14821

Pleased to make your acquaintance, Mr. Rice. I will be happy to share anything I might find that seems relevant enough. I fully expect that finding the correct path connecting your paternal line to the world tree will be truly amazing and fun for all concerned.

Since copyrights have recently been released on a lot of excellent old history and genealogy books, there is a goldmine of information just waiting to be discovered. Be sure to search the books and papers in Archive, Hathitrust, various university libraries, British History Online, etc..

By the way, I think I understand your method of using DNA for clues to kinship. It sounds like something I would do :) I believe you're on the right track, and I realize just how complicated and time-consuming genealogy can be. But it's worth it.

Here's hoping you always enjoy the ride and scenery. Sincerely, Debra

Just a couple of notes. Dale is deeply entrenched in the Geni World Family Tree, that’s why he keeps finding connections. :). I should know, since I did a lot of the research and a lot of the connecting. :):)

Another note is that records run out in England. So for most of us in America, we can only meet GPS standards on a direct line to say 1550 if we’re lucky. But through indirect lines (collateral) there are known “gateway” ancestors. The Dudley line is one of them and perhaps part of Dale’s interest.

I have a number of arrivers to Massachusetts, similar enough to Dale’s John Rice in time & place. My Richard Rice is unknown origins in England, and not so likely to change as he only had surviving daughters. AtDNA is no good that far back, and Y DNA useless as nothing to compare with. So ...

Erica, I want to express how much I appreciate you for caring and working so tirelessly for so many people. And as I've mentioned already (it bears repeating :) ), a very well-informed teacher and outstanding role model as well. I don't expect that we'll always agree on everything, but I hope you never feel taken for granted or disrespected, because you certainly don't deserve to be. Your help and advice is always well received. Thank you!

Thanks, Debra; we’ve been having fun.

Hopefully my saving grace is I know what I don’t know, so it makes it easier to learn.

I find that in genealogy there usually isn’t a lot of disagreement, actually. Facts speak for themselves.

Oh, and I misspoke about my Rice. He did have sons.

Richard Rice of Concord

I’m fortunate in that professionals wrote him up.