It's time to compare John Dudley Y DNA to His son Ambrose and Robert Dudley 1532 my 2nd cousins x 15 removed

https://www.geni.com/path/Perrot-ap-Rice+is+related+to+John-Price-A...

The above links Perrot ap Rice and John Price ancient Planter. One arriving 1620 and Perrot ap Rice and native woman arriving 1638-39 DCR 7th ggs of Perrot ap Rice

Perrot ap Rice's son Thomas is not the same person as Thomas Price ca 1530 to Jamestown on the Swann 1652.

Thomas ap Rice was in Wales in 1655.

I do not see a profile for the Thomas Price of the Swann.

Dale, when you see a relationship link in Geni, you need to track back to the common ancestor through all the links examining them for validity. As you know, Geni is a work in progress. I do not know the accuracy - except my own tree.

Question: if you can copy / paste a relationship link, why can’t you copy / paste a profile URL?

This sentence is not accurate.

“Perrot ap Rice and native woman arrived 1638-39 and had his cousin to help them set up the trading post on the James River near Otter lake exactly as the Virginia Historical Society found the remants of the old trading post in 2013.”

The trading post was set up in the 1720s or so - not 1639.

If there was a European in that part of Virginia at all before then, they were just passing through.

We know extremely little about “Trader” Hughes. Theories, few facts, except for the Trading post. That’s unlikely to change any moment soon.

You’ll have to link the profile for the Jesse Hughes you speak off. Rice Hughes, of New Kent County Did not have a son Jesse.

If the story is true that my mother's First Cousin married into her cousins line then there is every reason to believe the ONLY DUDLEY line that still exists are his cousins and my line by UNKNOWN WOMAN. That is the heart of the search Ms. Maven. You may leave any time. I certainly can continue without. The Pembrookshire journals REVISION is exactly the kind of OVER REACH your Hubris allows to change historical facts published in 200 year old journals. The Admiralty show John Perrot/ Peratt II as First Mate of the Sparrow after 1638. His name has been found and vetted on the Life of John Perrot the Quaker by a team member citing the OMB- (office of Marine ?) his letters not mine and therefore John Peratt II not Sir John could certainly have saved a foundered French Vessel in Havorford West Harbor August 1629 as the Pembrookshire journals said before you changed them. DCR

When I click on the blue field above Ms. Howton the Ancient Planter 4th cousin once removed to Perrot ap Rice comes right up all in blue. I resent it directly to you along with Willoghby and Price of Newton lines. DCR

Dale, your Geni relationship paths are not meaningful for me.

All you need to share with me are links to Geni profiles with a simple question: is this profile accurate as best I know? I will then examine & improve if need be.

Thanks Dale, and good luck.

Ms. Erica: It does not follow that just because Thomas Price was sued in Wales in 1655 that he could not have been in Virginia 1652. His father owned a trading vessel called the Sparow salvidged by his father John Perrat/Perrot Aug. 29, 1629 per the Pembrookshire Journals. They were taught to sale by Peratt's II Foster Father Sir John Perrot. That's how my 6th great grandfather got from East Anglia to Dedham, Ma without and indenture or a parent/guardian and ended up in the known care of Reverend John Allin, who later married the Widow Dudley. Dudley is family to me as First cousin x 12 remeoved as is Susanna Thorn Dudley is to the Crosby line of my Uncle Ernest Stevens Crosby. That's how the information filtered down to my father: Trhough inlaws of the Dudley's and my mother's line as First cousin. DCR

Ms. Erica: It does not follow that just because Thomas Price was sued in Wales in 1655 that he could not have been in Virginia 1652. His father owned a trading vessel called the Sparow salvidged by his father John Perrat/Perrot Aug. 29, 1629 per the Pembrookshire Journals. They were taught to sale by Peratt's II Foster Father Sir John Perrot. That's how my 6th great grandfather got from East Anglia to Dedham, Ma without and indenture or a parent/guardian and ended up in the known care of Reverend John Allin, who later married the Widow Dudley. Dudley is family to me as First cousin x 12 remeoved as is Susanna Thorn Dudley is to the Crosby line of my Uncle Ernest Stevens Crosby. That's how the information filtered down to my father: Trhough inlaws of the Dudley's and my mother's line as First cousin. DCR

Ms. Erica: The fort remains found on the James River was not the first one built there. We know from Virginia Historical Society that John Rolfe & Pocohauntus my 5th cousins bought land on the James River ABOVE the Rapids near the Fort Trading post and they did so earlier than 1740. The did so in their lifetimes and that means John Rice and Mary His wife who had 100 acres near those rapids as early as 1620 had a place for my 7th great grandfather his 4th cousin to go to and set up trade. He had the small ship Sparrow afterall and could transport English Cloth, Copper frrom Cornwall, and other goods to Native Americans' This is a logical extenstion of who JOhn Rice the Trader was. I now conclude that Perrot and his native girl were the custodians of the land next to the ROLFS from 1638-39 when they arrived to the time Perrot ap Rice left her there with his cousin John PRICE Ancient Planter. John Rice Hughes is the name who took over from my 7th great grandfather who became a Quaker in 1654...and sold his ship to John Rice Hooe1 to gain the means to Go to Rome : That's how I reconcile the names and dates and my Father's testimony to me. Perrot ap Rice 1598 had the education to write the Pamplets and the Theological training of his father Peratt II 1565 who attended Grey's Inn 158-0-83. That was my fy finding but someone else has taken over the file because I was so new the site in 2011-12 when I first put it up....Both JSwanstrom and another curator remared that I had used tradiotional genealogical research to find him at the time. It's recorded in those conversations among the 100 pages kept on file here at Geni. DCR

Dale: Have you *any idea* how *long* the James River is, or how *many* "rapids" there are on it? It is 348 miles long, and the fall line is actually in Richmond, Virginia, on the eastern edge of the Piedmont region (approximately 50 miles from the Chesapeake Bay). Otter Creek/Lake is way the heck up in the Blue Ridge, west of Lynchburg, right along what is now the Blue Ridge Parkway. If it's less than 150 miles (as the James twists) *west* of Richmond, I would be very surprised.

Site A is not Site B. Do not equate them. You have been repeatedly told this, and IGNORED it because it doesn't suit you. That is NOT how to do genealogy, or archaeology, or history.

As far as Geni knows, you're related to John Rolfe twice over, but not nearly as close as you think.

On your father's side: Dale C. Rice is Captain John Rolfe, Ancient Planter's [third] wife's third cousin once removed's husband's great nephew's wife's fourth great nephew. (Third wife was Jane Pierce, widow Smith, and this is *not* a blood relationship.)

On your mother's side: Dale C. Rice is Captain John Rolfe, Ancient Planter's 8th cousin 11 times removed. (There are NO RICES OR PERROTS in that line.)

As far as Geni knows, you are not any kind of blood relative of Pocahontas - you are related to her *only* through John Rolfe.

Your "Uncle Ernest Stevens Crosby" does not appear to be on Geni at all.

You don't like my story. If my father's story is corrupted it's because I confused it recalling it 38 years later. John Price Ancient Planter on the James River with 100 acres above the First Rapids may be a link to my story or not. I have to look at the R1b DNA which breaks with the Ancient Planter himself. That just How roll. I am naturally looking for all the parts that fit togetehr in a 38 year old one hour conversation....That 's why I say I am a great grandson looking for his Great Grandfather and since there was no equivocation on the SPELLING of Perratt II on the October day in 1978 you will just have to listen as move along. I will remind you that you once suggested that name Queen Elizabeth I as the Unknown woman who gave birth to Robert Dudley's son....I said I would never do that because there is no DNA I can link to like can with Dudly's cousins. Being snide in your remarks I said NO to your crass belittling idea. You have helped other But not me.

"You don't like my story?" above sorry

Dale, I have a lot of trouble with the geography and chronology of the story.

I will continuously return to John the Quaker Perrot, as his dates and children are known.

What is the evidence for the 1598 birth date you say?

What is the evidence for his ancestry?

If his parents are unknown, and suggested to have been from England > Ireland, how is there any linkage at all?

His missions are documented in Quaker writings. His fellow missionaries are known also, and what became of some of them. If I recall correctly, at the early date he very briefly visited the Virginia Colony, the Friends were not well received, which is part of why he settled in Barbados.

And indeed, that’s where you could explore more information about him & his family.

And by evidence, of course I mean documents; not theories, not interpretations. As there’s really no feedback needed by anyone on a story, whether it’s “liked” or not.

But facts we can do. Your paternal Ancestry is well known until say 1624, the approximate birth date of John Rice of Dedham in the Puritan Massachusetts Bay Colony.

John Perrot the Quaker was introduced to me in 1978 by my father's testimony to me that he turned over a new leaf from being a SCOUNDREL as Perrot ap Rice. We have Perrot's date of Birth worked out by the death of his mother in May of 1610. She had 12 live births in 12 years. leaving 3 mos. between pregnancies. Working back ward with 90 days between means that Perrot either survied 90 early birth or he was delivered normall and she was 3 mos Pregnat at the time of her marriage to Thomas ap Rice knight of Tenby. We know his DNA r1b so my ancestor cannot be his son though he carries his name ap Rice. If you accept the guessed at birth in Ireland with no father or mother you come face to face with the story of John Perrot Jr. born to Sybile Johns Perrot about 1591 earlier than Perrot ap Rice so it can't be he. She had no more children so can't be related to Sir John Perrot as the article suggests...meaning the writers of that article had the Sir John Perrot FABLE mixed up with John Perrot the Quaker. My ancestor according to my father is John Perratt II 1565 Oxinesis 1580-83. Proved and listed here on Geni as a son of Sir John Perrot. But we know that sons of Sir John Perrot Jr. are Dr. Richard Perrot are I-1 Haplogroup SNP 283. Perrot's are French R1b. So Sir John Perrot does not haveR1b blood as testified by his down line Dr. Steven Pratt PHD who told me he has I-1 French Norman Blood. So does Dr. Richard Edwardes Mother - Agness Bluett so does Thomas Stuckley who's mother is my 3rd cousins 4th ggrand mother. I have a cousin connection to all of these persons I am I-1 M 253 but my line departs into cousin territory after marker 15 or 16 according to my research....So how does I-1 Haplogroup enter the Tudor bloodline if at all? Only one place in recorded history for that to have happened: When King Henry IV BOllingbroke son of John of Gaunt cornered the Tudor brother's and their wives at Conway Castle 1300 AD. Owen Tudor named for his cousin Owain Gelndower was brought to the court of Henry IV age 7 and age 9 was a page to his 1/2 brother? (looks like that is real) and I am not the only one who thinks so. He stayed in the court of Henry V as wardwarb major domo and married his widowed Queen when Henry V died YOung. That's where there is no doubt in my mind that Perrot ap Rice 1592 is the son of John Perratt II FOSTERED Son of Robert Dudley of Sutton. My line descends from The strong Arm Duke of netherlands and his sister married DeCoursey descendant of Le Teuton Sutton... I match all of the the Sutton Dudleys that are left to track...2nd cousin born 1850 and 6th cousin H 1957 on Family tree Robert sutton 60/67 and 23/25 to John Dudley 1850. If you can show me how my father was wrong I'll shut up. I have the provided the DNA context to show that I am part of the father to son surviving line of Robert Dudley 1532 who married my maternal first and second cousin Leigh, Howard as in Douglas Howard, and Lettice Knolley's daughter of Mary Boleyne. His brother Ambrose married Jane Grey per the father John Sutton who is my maternal great Uncle x 14 remvoed as I recall. Perrot ap Rice had the knights son education and his father Peratt II was educated at OXFORD meaning he would be able to read and write both legally and theologically. When the smoke clears: the simplist explaination is the answer that would be Perrot ap Rice 1598 son of Peratt II by Margaret Mercer 1580 dughter of Johanna Lovelace Mercer and Sir John Perrot. That's my family story and if it's not enough to say that 100% then I will say I have proved preponderance of the evidence at 92% match to H1957 on family Tree Robert Sutton 1637. Happy to answer anything reasonable. DCR

Rhys ap Tudur, of Deheubarth

Has this been seen, and is it relevant here? I chanced upon it, both now and another time before seeing this discussion (thus my interest in the discussion) and it happens to be my 28th g-grandfather, so I'm just curious.

https://www.geni.com/path/Rhys-ap-Tudur-of-Deheubarth+is+related+to...

Is this true?

Dale C. Rice is Rhys ap Tudur, of Deheubarth's 25th great grandson!
Rhys ap Tudur, of Deheubarth
→ Nest verch Rhys
his daughter → William FitzGerald, Baron of Windsor and Pembroke
her son → William FitzWilliam Fitzgerald
his son → William Gerard, Lord of Kingsley
his son → William Gerard, II, of Kingsley
his son → William III Gerard, of Kingsley and Cattenhal
his son → William Gerard, IV, of Kingsley and Cattenhal,
his son → Lady Anne Leyston
his daughter → Jane Bokill
her daughter → Maud Bokill
her daughter → Sir William Jenney or Jenne
her son → Margaret Willoughby
his daughter → Sir Thomas Willoughby, Chief Justice
her son → Christopher Willoughby
his son → Christopher Willoughby
his son → John Willoughby
his son → William Willoughby
his son → Mary Wofford
his daughter → Jane Bobo
her daughter → Gabriel R. Baubeau
her son → Martin Bobo
his son → Anna Thomas
his daughter → Amelia Jane Collins
her daughter → Walter C. Collins
her son → Esther Mabel Cookston
his daughter → <private> Rice-Wanker (Cookston)
her daughter → Dale C. Rice
her son

Hi, Private User , as someone who knows next to nothing about Mr. Rice's situation, which is only the little I've been able to gathered here, along with a brief glance at the John Rice of Dedham Project:

https://www.geni.com/projects/John-Rice-of-Dedham-Ancestry/14821

...I can only comment very simply and briefly that Rhys ap Tudur was Henry VIII's eleventh g-grandfather. So there is something to the family story of being descended from a "Rice" who was a Tudor, although it is interesting that this Rhys is his ancestor through his maternal line (could also be through his paternal line somehow, although it hasn't been proven yet).

Indeed, practically all of us here on this discussion so far, are directly descended from Rhys ap Tudur. I don't know about ya'll, but I'm descended through two of his children, so he's both my 27th and 28th g-grandfather. And his profile statistics show at least 10,000 descendants.

Like I said, I don't know anything about Dale personally, although I do sympathize and wish I could offer real help with this genealogical problem. However, chances are there is some sort of elusive, ancient kinship between his parents anyway, whether or not it is provable.

Re: “If you accept the guessed at birth in Ireland with no father or mother you come face to face with the story of John Perrot Jr. born to Sybile Johns Perrot about 1591 earlier than Perrot ap Rice so it can't be he.”

Correct ! John the Quaker Perrot (born “of” Ulster say 1620) has “nothing to do with the Welsh Perrots.

Glad you got that sorted, Dale.

Private User Glad to see you chiming in. We all may have royal, noble, even Biblical <grin> ancestry. But the task is showing it, link by link.

I am confident about Dale’s paternal line, and we can hazard some guesses about geographic origins based on similar arrivers to New England, and also ... “The yDNA signature of John Rice is also broadly similar to other families in the North Midlands and East Anglia ...”

Southern USA genealogy, as we know, is far more difficult. There are a lot more false paths to chase before we get closer to the truth.

And ... I am not a known Haughton of Lancashire, of Sir Loin fame. :). Apparently Howton’s have always been Howton’s. It’s too bad. I was convinced for a while an ancestor had blown up the family castle & ran off to found Lancaster, Massachusetts.

"John Perrot the Quaker was introduced to me in 1978 by my father's testimony to me that he turned over a new leaf from being a SCOUNDREL as Perrot ap Rice."

There is *absolutely no evidence* for this other than your father's say-so, and it doesn't fit the known facts about John Perrot the Quaker *or* Perrot ap Rice.

"We have Perrot's date of Birth worked out by the death of his mother in May of 1610. She had 12 live births in 12 years"

Per the "Pembrokeshire Historian", which has been found to be probably in error on several of them.

"(blah blah blah) We know his DNA r1b so my ancestor cannot be his son though he carries his name ap Rice."

That and five dollars will get you a cup of coffee at Starbuck's. Wales was just FULL of ap Rices and Prices and Rices and Reeses and so on and so forth - it's a patronymic meaning "son/descendant of Rhys", and as Anne Brannen was at pains to explain (not that you listened), Wales was also full of Rhyses.

Over in England there were Rices whose ancestors had never seen Wales, and who got the name via Saxon "Ris" or "Hris", meaning "ardent warrior". (When the English adopted surnames - long before the Welsh did - they sometimes tacked on an epithet or byname that described either them, or an attibute they wanted to be seen as having. Hence "Strong", "Wise", etc.)

There is a distinct possibility that the Welsh swiped the name from the Saxons, as they were later to swipe names they liked from the Normans.

"If you accept the guessed at birth in Ireland with no father or mother you come face to face with the story of John Perrot Jr. born to Sybile Johns Perrot about 1591 earlier than Perrot ap Rice so it can't be he."

No, YOU come face to face with it, via a flying broad jump from A to P without stopping in between.

Sybil verch Rhys (different Rhys) Jones *was never married* to Sir John Perrot and could not claim his surname. She was also much older than you seem to think, having her children between the 1560s and 1570s - Sir James Perrot, who was born somewhere very close to 1570 (he matriculated, ie registered, at Oxford in 1586, age 16) was certainly hers, and his *older* brother John Perrott II (he of Gray's Inn, matriculated 1580 at age 15) probably was. She wouldn't have been *able* to have any more children by 1590 - by Sir John Perrot or anyone else. This is basic female biology.

"She had no more children so can't be related to Sir John Perrot as the article suggests...meaning the writers of that article had the Sir John Perrot FABLE mixed up with John Perrot the Quaker."

Broad ASS-umption, especially since the only known Sir John Perrot in the relevant time frame was IN HER BED!

"My ancestor according to my father is John Perratt II 1565 Oxinesis 1580-83."

Perrot, John: of co. Hereford, militis fil. Broadgates Hall, matric. entry under date 28 April, 1580, aged 15; student of Gray's Inn 1583, as 3s. [of] John, of Carew, co. Pembroke, kt. [this is Sir John Perrot MP again]; brother of James 1586. See Foster's Gray's Inn Reg. 1583 is the last that is ever heard of him, and he was *probably* dead without heirs by 29 May 1584, what time Sir John Perrot, about to leave for Ireland, formally acknowledged James and started maneuvering him into position as a backup heir. (John II was *certainly* dead by 1590, when Sir John, finding that his prior arrangements were inadequate, drew up fresh assurances for James and got them signed by Lord Burghley and Sir Henry Cobham - *very* Big Noises at Elizabeth's court.)

"But we know that sons of Sir John Perrot Jr. are Dr. Richard Perrot are I-1 Haplogroup SNP 283."

Sir John Perrot II is a myth. No such person. *Various claims to the contrary not withstanding, every indication is that Richard was the son of Thomas and Margaret Parratt of Potton, Bedfordshire, England.* http://freepages.rootsweb.com/~parrott/genealogy/richardperrott.shtml

"Perrot's are French R1b."

R1b is not only NOT exclusively French, it is found at much HIGHER levels in Scotland, Wales and especially Ireland.

"Blah blah blah R1b Y-DNA blah blah blah) So how does I-1 Haplogroup enter the Tudor bloodline if at all? Only one place in recorded history for that to have happened: When King Henry IV BOllingbroke son of John of Gaunt cornered the Tudor brother's and their wives at Conway Castle 1300 AD."

That won't help you - the Plantagenet Y-DNA haplogroup is *probably* G2a (Richard III, proven from the corpus delicti), with R1b a secondary possibility (the Beaufort-Somersets, whose line has some knots in it). *The only I1 Somerset was EXCLUDED from the study because there was a recent (2-3 generations back) Non-Parental Event in his ancestry* - thus he ws NEITHER a Beaufort NOR a Plantagenet!

"Owen Tudor named for his cousin Owain Gelndower was brought to the court of Henry IV age 7 and age 9 was a page to his 1/2 brother"

G2a and R1b DON'T produce I1 children. Forget it.

"[Owen] stayed in the court of Henry V as ward[robe] major domo and married his widowed Queen when Henry V died YOung."

True, but not relevant to the Perrot/Rice megillah.

"That's where there is no doubt in my mind that Perrot ap Rice 1592 is the son of John Perratt II FOSTERED Son of Robert Dudley of Sutton."

Garbage. All indications are that Perrot ap Rice was the son of Thomas ap Rice and Margaret Mercer, conceived and born in lawful wedlock with none of your French-farce innuendoes. (And earlier you tried to claim that Sir John Perrot was Perrot ap Rice's father, which is equally garbage.)

"(Blah blah blah Surttons and Dudleys blah blah blah) If you can show me how my father was wrong I'll shut up."

Oh no you won't. You never have, no matter how often your claims have been shown to be totally spurious. You never will.

Oh by the way, Perrot ap Rice got his name from a Perrot family all right - just not from any Sir John Perrot. His father Thomas's mother was Katherine Perrot, of the Perrots of Rickeston and Scotborough (her Geni tree is very sketchy, too sketchy to see if there is a good cousin relationship between her and Sir John Perrot).

It was a Tudor fad to give family surnames to children as first names - usually boys, but girls came in for it too.

Private User — small point, but it’s me:

You said

>>Over in England there were Rices whose ancestors had never seen Wales, and who got the name via Saxon "Ris" or "Hris", meaning "ardent warrior". <<

The Old English “Hris” means “twig,” or “branch,” directly from the Germanic root, where it meant exactly the same. The Welsh “Rhys” gets translated as “exuberant,” which seems fair enough, as its root means “too,” or “very”. The two names aren’t connected, of course, but the “ardent” translation would fit the Welsh better. Oddly.

But really the important part of what you are saying was that in medieval Britain, and later, the name “Rice” could come from either Welsh or Old English.

If there is an “ap” connected to it it’s Welsh.

Yes, that's kinda the point. Rices aren't necessarily Welsh. (Prices, yes - but Rices, not always.)

I am from a not Welsh Rice.