A duplicate?

Started by Kenneth Ekman on Wednesday, August 14, 2019
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8/14/2019 at 1:01 PM

Is this Ragnar "Lodbrok" Sigurdsson a duplicate of the profiles mentioned here, or are there good reasons why they are separate?

8/14/2019 at 2:20 PM

Alex Moes you are better suited to explain this than I am.

8/14/2019 at 3:22 PM

I will answer what i think is the question but I cannot see any duplicates mentioned here.

8/14/2019 at 11:44 PM

Alex Moes The question is if this Ragnar "Lodbrok" Sigurdsson and this Ragnar "Lodbrog", {Gesta Danorum} and this Ragnar Loðbrók, {Landnámabók} are duplicates (triplicates)

Private User
8/15/2019 at 5:53 AM

@Alex Moes Why have you disconnected my ancestor Bjorn Ironside (you name him Bjarn) from my ancestor the accepted profile of Ragnar Lodbrok?

You don't even have the knowledge to write my ancestors name correct - or did you call him Bjarn intentionally? Björn Járnsíða, {Landnámabók}

You have also disconnected his sister and also my ancestor, Alöf from her familylink: Álöf Ragnarsdóttir

Are you on some personal "kinky flip" by creating some kind of a "private world of yours on Geni?

What is your intention by disconnecting and thereby corrupting the tree here on Geni? Do you have any special authority to do this? You't certainly didn't ask my permission to corrupt my family tree here on Geni.

Explannation please.

8/15/2019 at 6:27 AM

Thanks for clarifying Kenneth Ekman.
The profiles you tagged are in a broad sense duplicates yes.
While Geni has a policy of one profile for each person this is one of the instances where we have specifically chosen to maintain separate profiles based on different traditions that have been preserved thru the ages. If there was a single tradition for Ragnar there would be no need for multiple profiles, for that matter if there were separate traditions for Ragnar but they agree genealogically then there would not be a need on Geni to differentiate them.
I am not sure how familiar you are with the stories of Ragnar?
The main stories are Ragnar's Saga and the Saga of Ragnars Son, they generally agree in their descriptions of Ragnar's family structure.
Saxo's Gesta Danorum, which is the other detailed version of Ragnar's story, is significantly different to the sagas. Trying to meld the two versions into a single tree is impossible but for a decade that's what was attempted on Geni.
There are also 2 mentions of Ragnar in Landnamabok and some records in the Frankish Annales which are interpreted by some people as being historical records for Ragnar.
Overlay this with the popular ideas that Ragnar was at the Sack of Paris and also that his death trigger the Great Heathen Army's attack on England, trying to create a single profile for a man that meshes all these details (and more) was impossible and so we (I, the curator team) split the profile up into the 3 versions for which genealogical data exists.

I hope that is not too confused, reading the entire About of Ragnar "Lodbrok" Sigurdsson will give you more insight into the irreconcilable issues that i have touched ever so briefly on.

8/15/2019 at 6:34 AM

Hello again Private User,

"Þórður hét maður ágætur hann var son Bjarnar byrðusmjörs, Hróaldssonar hryggs, Bjarnarsonar járnsíðu, Ragnarssonar loðbrókar. Þórður fór til Íslands og nam Höfðaströnd í Skagafirði á milli Unadalsár og Hrolleifsdalsár og bjó að Höfða." https://www.snerpa.is/net/snorri/landnama.htm 64. kafli

The possessive endings of Norse names are not the easiest to translate, i thought I had Björn Járnsíða, {Landnámabók} correct but if i did make a mistake would you like to advise what the correct form should be?

https://www.geni.com/people/Björn-Ironside/6000000004654517884 has a different spelling because he represents a different tradition, are you perhaps thinking of this profile?

8/15/2019 at 6:39 AM

Álöf Ragnarsdóttir has not been disconnected from her family, Landnamabok describes her father, her husband, her children and their descendants. All these people are attached to her.
What has been removed is the connections between her and people from other traditions, for example Alof and Lagertha are not mentioned together in any source yet prior to the clean up Geni showed them as step-daughter/step-mother.

This is not some private-kink of mine, this was all done very openly and publicly over a year ago it an attempt to resolve the conflicting arguments around Ragnar's profile that had been ongoing for years on Geni.

8/15/2019 at 6:43 AM

For an in depth understanding of the issues with Ragnar himself and the issues we've had presenting him here on Geni I suggest starting with this link and reading all the way thru... it's only 27 pages :)

https://www.geni.com/discussions/129645?msg=1281110&page=1

8/15/2019 at 10:44 PM

Thanks! :-)

Private User
8/21/2019 at 12:30 AM

Because of the chronological discrepancies around Ragnar and the events he is associated with, British genealogist David Hughes (author of "The British Chronicles" which I have yet to obtain a copy of) suggests that there were two men by this name with the same nickname, one the great-grandfather of the other. What his sources are for the filled-in family tree he provides, I can't say, because I haven't been able to track them all down, but while his work does resolve discrepancies, it also can't be corroborated to my satisfaction... and I'm more forgiving of such things than many genealogists because of my love of myth and legend.

8/21/2019 at 5:55 AM

Private User I've not heard that particular line of reasoning but it's quite plausible. Though as you say the difference between plausible and provable is a yawning chasm.
This essay is well worth a read: https://media.geni.com/p13/5a/df/7b/21/5344483b542dc249/ragnar_orig...

Private User
5/13/2023 at 9:53 AM

You CANNOT compare the Gesta Danorum with Landnåmabok. Gesta Danorum is pure fantasy. Landnåmabok is historical. I have done an in-depth analysis of all the sources here: https://www.academia.edu/49511526/The_Raven_Banner_Revisited

5/13/2023 at 7:06 PM

Private User the counter argument is that all of these sources probably contain a nugget of truth but that identifying the nugget in each is near impossible.
When comparing these sources it immediately becomes evident that they are contradictory and inconsistent, both internally and in comparison, which logically reduces the level of trust that should be put into any of them. However, what i have observed in a decade of research is that most people are ignorant of the nuances of early medieval history and when exposed to the facts chose to believe what ever makes them feel the best.

Congratulations on your article but I didn't download your article as i distrust sites that make me register just to download a file.

5/13/2023 at 7:17 PM

Sorry, i had a pleasant surprise when i scrolled all the way to the bottom of the page and found your full article! I shall make a cup of coffee now :)

Private User
5/13/2023 at 7:26 PM

Hello, Alex, I am new here, so sorry for posting all over the place! Yes, I agree. There are huge differences between the sources. Knowledge of Medieval Litterature and Critical Discourse Analysis helps!

5/13/2023 at 8:17 PM

Very interesting read, especially the etymology of Lodbrok. Thank you for sharing.

Private User
5/13/2023 at 10:01 PM

Private User
"You CANNOT compare the Gesta Danorum with Landnåmabok. Gesta Danorum is pure fantasy. Landnåmabok is historical."

I've been trying to claim the same fact for a long time here with no success, "Knowledge of Medieval Litterature and Critical Discourse Analysis helps!" unfortunately, none of that is required to become a curator, cut lines, make faulty choices, lock profiles with wrong parents, no parents,, missing children, not able to listen o being receptive to logic.because in the eyes of a fool, a genius is nothing but an idiot.

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