Continuing With This Work

Kevin Lawrence Hanit,

Thanks!

Claudia

Kevin Lawrence Hanit,

I've created a small branch for G19.2 Lifsha, from Chapter 13, page 697. This is her profile:
Private

Please connect her to her brother, G19.1 Yitzchak Meshullam Nosson Bick:
Private

Claudia

Kevin Lawrence Hanit,

Thanks,

This is the profile for G19.4 Devora's husband, Shulem Asher Zelig Osestreicher, from Chapter 13, page 698:

Private

And this is his father, R. Chaim Eleazar Ostreicher:

Private

Please connect.

Claudia

Kevin Lawrence Hanit and Randy Schoenberg,

I've identified some problems with the profile of G3.3 Saul Wahl Katzenellenbogen (1 day King) (Ch.1., page 17) which I would like to have fixed.

In Chapter 1, page 23, there is a section labeled "Fourth and Fifth Generations, Children and Grandchildren of Saul Wahl" and next to this title there is a footnote that says "Saul Wahl only had five sons - Meir, Abraham Abrashky, David, Jacob, and Isaac "Charif" and two daughter- Hanale and Pesia. There is much confusion because other scholars have assumed other children. This is discussed in great detail by Rosenstein, Saul Wahl, 265, et seq".

The problem I'm running into is that although it has been made quite clear that there were only 5 sons, we are showing a total of 7 sons in Geni, and I'm afraid that the extra 2 sons that have popped up in Geni can be directly attributed to errors found in the current edition of UC.

For example, in Chapter 6, page 1, G4.7 Feiwel Wahl Katzenellenbogen has been listed as a son of G3.3 Saul Wahl Katzenellenbogen.

It seems to me that this is clearly a mistake, as Saul Wahl could not be his father. Consequently, I think that Feiwel Wahl Katzenellenbogen should be detached from Saul Wahl Katzenellenbogen (1 day King) although I'm not sure who the correct parents would be that he should be attached to.

And in Chapter 10, page 885, G4.6 Judah Wahl (father of G.5.2 Dinah, married R. Heschel of Krakow, died in 1664) is listed as son of G3.3 Saul Wahl Katzenellenbogen.

It has been made quite clear that Judah Wahl was not a son, but was a son-in-law. In fact, we recently disconnected Rbzn. Dina Katz Heschel from a Shmuel Judah Wahl who was in Geni as a son of Saul Wahl, and she has been connected her to her correct father, Judah Zalman Wahl's Next step would probably be to disconnect Shmuel Yehuda Katzenellenbogen from Saul Wahl Katzenellenbogen (1 day King) since he had no such son.

I haven't even looked at the daughters yet, but there are some extras there too that should not be there.

Please advise

Claudia

Kevin Lawrence Hanit,

These are duplicate profiles for G18.11 R. Aaron Yosef Friedman's wife, from Ch. 13, page 699:

https://www.geni.com/family-tree/index/6000000184215445849

Private

Please merge.

Claudia

Kevin Lawrence Hanit,

I created a small branch for G19.1 Sivan Shilo, from Ch. 13, page 702, to add her missing husband and child. This is the new profile:

Private

Please merge with this one:

Private

Claudia

Kevin Lawrence Hanit,

I have a question about this profile:

Frieda Harif

According to UC, Chapter 13, page 705, and Chapter 7, page 249 (see entry for G7.5 R. Jacob Charif), she was the youngest daughter of the Chachim Zvi, however, she currently has no parents in Geni, and the 'about' section says that she was not a daughter of the Chachim Zvi.

I'm not sure what the source of this controversy is, but it seems to me that some explanation needs to be given if UC has found to be in error.

Claudia

Kevin Lawrence Hanit,

This is in follow up to my request to disconnect Shmuel Yehuda Katzenellenbogen from Saul Wahl Katzenellenbogen (1 day King) since he had no such son. After he is disconnected, I believe we have a duplicate profile for him that he should be merged with, namely Shmuel Yehuda Katzenellenbogen

In the book "Saul Wahl", by Neil Rosenstein, it is explained how he was mistaken for a son of Saul Wahl, but was actually a grandson, specifically, a son of David Katzenellenbogen. In the profile for Shmuel Yehuda Katzenellenbogen please take a look at the profile picture, which is from the aforementioned book.

Further background information from that book can be found in the paragraph that immediately precedes what is shown in the profile picture. That paragraph (from Chapter 8 page 1) reads as follows:

"Frequent use was also made of even earlier generations; sometimes a more recent generation could be skipped with reference falling on a prominent grandfather. Judah, son of David, son of Saul Wahl, was known simply as Judah Saul's. His lesser-known father, David [Katzenellenbogen] was skipped over to Samuel's more famous grandfather, Saul Wahl. Edelmann confounded the family of this David Katzenellenbogen as will be discussed below in this chapter."

Claudia

Kevin Lawrence Hanit,

I'm finding a bit of a contradiction in Chapter 13, page 714. The main text says that G2.3 Pesi, is the daughter of G.1 R. Solomon Zalman HaKohen Zussman, but also indicates that she married her first cousin once removed, R. Joseph Zvi Meisels of Ostrog. The explanation for how they are 1C1R is given at the bottom of the page, where it says that Pesi's father was DovBerish Rappaport. This contradicts the main text, which shows her as daughter of G.1 R. Solomon Zalman HaKohen Zussman.

Claudia

Kevin Lawrence Hanit,

Could you please take a look at the entry for G4.3 R. Noah Perlow from Chapter 13, page 719, and compare what it says there to what we have in geni? Here is his profile:

R' Noah Perlow of Horodishtch (Gorodisce, west of Cherkassy)

The first problem seems to be that the wife doesn't match what is in the book, but I don't think that is the only problem. I just need you to check this for me because I'm having trouble figuring out what the things are that need to be fixed.

Claudia

Kevin Lawrence Hanit,

Would you like me to start working on Volume 6?

Claudia

Kevin Lawrence Hanit,

I believe that you need to catch up on all of my most recent requests in this thread, beginning with this one:

https://www.geni.com/discussions/199286?msg=1555931

I will begin working on Volume 6.

Thanks,
Claudia

Kevin Lawrence Hanit,

Rbzn. Dina Katz Heschel was the 2nd wife of G5 Rabbi Naftali Hirsch Katz, ABD Lublin, "Peirot Genosar" however, they had no issue (see Chapter 16, page 9).

Currently, we show them as having 7 children together. These children would have to belong to Naftali Hirsch and his first wife Esther bat Isaiah Katz Could you please re-assign them since they do not belong to Dinah?

Private User, I'm tagging you on this as well as you have been involved in previous discussions of Dinah, and I believe you've noted her excessive number of children.

Thanks,
Claudia

Kevin Lawrence Hanit,

This is the profile for G10.2 R. Isaiah Horowitz of Brody's 2nd wife, from Chapter 16, page 11:

2nd Wife of Yeshaya Ha'Levi Horowitz

Please connect her to her father's profile:

Rabbi Saul Katzenellenbogen

Claudia

I am not staking an official opinion on the various offspring because while Chapter 16, page 9 is good evidence, I am reluctant to give all 7 to the first wife, or simply delete any. I just don't know what to do. For now what I I would do is leave things the way they are and put a note in the About section of all three profiles (R' Hirsh, Dinah, and the Unknown First Wife) giving the information from Chapter 16, page 9 and advising caution when working with this area of the tree. It is possible that some of the year estimates are wrong and that one or more could be from Dinah.

Private User and Kevin Lawrence Hanit,

I strongly object to things being left as they are because It is made quite clear in the latest edition of "The Unbroken Chain" that these children do NOT belong to Dinahl

In Volume 6, Chapter 16, page 9, in the very first paragraph of this volume, the following correction is provided:

"NOTE: In the first two editions of this book, The Unbroken Chain (1976, 1990) the Horowitz family was traced back to Saul Wahl and the Katzenellenbogen family. This has, based on careful research and scholarship, been shown to be incorrect (see Volume Two- Chapter V- Branch C). The incorrect link was through Dinah, the second wife of R. Naftali Katz, when it should have been through his first wife, daughter of Isaiah Lieberisch (Lieber's, i.e. son of Lieb/Leib) of Prague...."

The reference to Chapter 5, Branch C, takes us to the entry for G6 R. Naftali Katz, on page 535, which provides the following further explanation regarding the children:

"IMPORTANT: R. Naftali's first wife was the daughter of R. Isaiah Liberlish (Lieberl, who died in Prague, 1644), son of R. Isaac, Primator and Judge of Prague by whom Naftali had his children. R. Naftali's second wife was Dinah, daughter of R. Judah Wahl's (Walsch), son of R. Meir Wahl's (Walsch) who married Pesia, daughter of Saul Wahl.

The naming pattern of the sons only fits in with the Prague line and not the Katzenellenbogen line. Thus Naftali's son was named Isaac after Naftali's wife's father, as was a grandson (son of Perle and husband Samuel Zanwill). This Isaac Katz named his son Isaiah, after his maternal grandfather. Conversely no Katz children were named after Judah Wahl's (Walsch) or his father Meir Walsch, which would be the case had Naftali's children been from Dinah."

Chapter 5 lists the following 6 people as being children of Naftali, by his 1st wife:

G7.1 Judah Katz
G7.2 Mordecai Katz
G7.3 Haim Katz
G7.4 Phineas Katz
G7.5 Perle, married R. Samuel Zanwill, son of R. Isaac of Zolkiew....
G7.6 R. Isaac Katz....

Claudia

Looking at the Chapter 5 list it seems there are 3 persons (Phineas, Perle, and Izaac) who are not yet on the GENI tree (at least not as offspring of R' NH Katz ABD Lublin). Then there are four persons who are on GENI as offspring of R' NH Katz:Shimshon,Shmuel, Yudith, and Hindeh. So if you are going to make the edit, you'd have to add the three to 'first wife' and I guess leave the four with Dinah (or disconnect them from R' NH Katz and Dinah entirely). I do not believe any of the seven children currently attributed to R' NH Katz and Dinah are 'locked' so if you want to take responsibility for the edits you could do so. I am signalling this discussion to the various Curators and Pros who are attached to any of the relevant profiles, and some of whom may have something constructive to add regarding the persons who are not mentioned in Chapter 5 and how to deal with them (apologies for any omissions or duplication on this list): Malka Mysels Randy Schoenberg Kevin Lawrence Hanit Howard Lesser Mel Werbach Private User Shmuel-Aharon Kam (Kahn / שמואל-אהרן קם (קאן Shulem Jeremias Private User Private User Private User Ron (Shlomo Avraham) Weitz Andrew Blau Geoffrey (Ephry) Michael Géza Vas(Schwarcz) Yigal Burstein Aryeh Zvi Brodsky Private User Remi Hakim Deborah Kestenbaum Yehoshua Pesach Gold Private User Andrew Blau

Kevin Lawrence Hanit,

As follow up to https://www.geni.com/discussions/199286?msg=1555931, I would advise that the following children be disconnected from Saul Wahl Katzenellenbogen (1 day King)

wife, Yeoshua Fievel Teomim

Feiwel Wahl Katzenellenbogen

Wife of R' Moses HaKohen Katz

Geila Lipshutz

Avigail Eigla-Olga Alpersh

Wife, Yosef Casas

Unkown Deltsch

When you are done, there should only be 5 sons and 2 daughters. It might be a good idea to also add the following to the 'about' section of the profile for Saul Wahl (King for a Day), as documentation of who his children were:

In Chapter 1, page 23, there is a section labeled "Fourth and Fifth Generations, Children and Grandchildren of Saul Wahl" and next to this title there is a footnote that says "Saul Wahl only had five sons - Meir, Abraham Abrashky, David, Jacob, and Isaac "Charif" and two daughter- Hanale and Pesia. There is much confusion because other scholars have assumed other children. This is discussed in great detail by Rosenstein, Saul Wahl, 265, et seq".

Claudia

Kevin Lawrence Hanit,

In follow-up to https://www.geni.com/discussions/199286?msg=1556126, I have sent a message to Yigal, and have copied you on the message.

Claudia

Kevin Lawrence Hanit,

Thanks,

Claudia

Kevin Lawrence Hanit,

I am having some confusion regarding these 2 profiles, who we show in Geni as being half brothers:

R' Yeshaya Horowitz of Brody, s. #4

R' Yehoshua Ha'Levi Horowitz, s. #5, ABD Bisk

Both are from Chapter 16, page 11. The first one is G10.2 R. Isaiah Horowitz of Brody, and the 2nd one is G10.3 R. Joshua Horowitz, ABD Bisk.

According to UC, it was Joshua Horowitz, ABD Bisk, who died in Zolkiew in 1767, however, in Geni we have his date of death as 1795, and we show Yeshaya/Isaiah as being the one who died in 1767. I do not know which is correct. Please advise.

Claudia

Kevin Lawrence Hanit,

I've created a new branch for G18.2 Jerrold Abraham (Jerry, Yaakov Abba) Morgenstern, from Chapter 16, page 14, in order to add his missing children.

Here is the new profile:

Private

Please merge with this one:

Private

Claudia