Continuing With This Work

Kevin Lawrence Hanit,

Okay, thanks!

Claudia

Kevin Lawrence Hanit,

I'd like you to take a look at the conflict on the profile of G12.2 Neitsche (Najcia), from Chapter 12, page 581:

Neitsche (Najcia) Szper

The conflicting parents have the same names, but they seem to be different people, so I don't wan't to merge them.

According to the book, the G11.1 HInde who was the mother of G12.2 Neitsche (Najcia) is this one Hinda Rotenberg who is was the daughter of R' Moses Joshua Heschel Ornstein, A.B.D. Radziwillow (Rodwil) and Tarnogrod and not this one Hinda Rotenberg who was the daughter of R' Moses Joshua Heschel Ornstein, A.B.D. Radziwillow (Rodwil) and Tarnogrod and Chana Ornstein

In the 'about' section of the latter Hinda, it says that she died in Turobin in 1874, at which time she was a widow living in the home of her son Rabbi Abram Rotenberg, A.B.D. Zawichost and Josefow whose profile indicates that he was born in Krasnik in 1833. I do not know whether or not this son Abraham is the same person as G11.1 Hinde's son, G12.1 Rabbi Abram Rotenberg, A.B.D. Zawichost and Josefow There 'about' section of Hinda Rotenberg has a link to the death information, but I could not read it. Incidentally, her profile indicates that she was born circa 1791, which seems to be a bit off, since we have her daughter, Neitsche/Najca, listed as being born in 1799. According to the book, G12.2 Neitsche (Najca) was estimated to have been born about 1807.

Also, according to the book, the name of G12.2 Neitsche (Najca)'s father was Isser Rottenberger, rather than Isser Rotenberg, although the book does not indicate who Isser's parents were.

Please let me know if you have any insights regarding the resolution of this conflict.

Thanks,

Claudia

@Claudia Bullock
Dear Claudia, I received the notification about your comments concerning the profile of Najca Szper Rotenberg.
Thank you for your attention about her birthday. I apologise- it was my fault and just typing mistake: she was born c.1809 and not in 1799 of course. I already fixed it. So her mother’s age fit perfectly now.

All the records you can not read I read easily because I’m Russian speaker and can read Polish language as well. All the documents attached by myself in the Overview rubric are always well verified and double checked. So you don’t need to hesitate: the parents of Najca and Abram are Isser Rotenberg (and never ever RoTTenberGER ! - please keep the original names as they mentioned in the Archives, it will help to avoid the problem of doubled profiles in general) and Hinda Lew. Hinda’s death record is very detailed about her parents.
If you have any question about this please let me know, I’ll try to help you with the texts.

Regards,
Bella Marianchik

Dear Bella Marianchik,

Your language expertise is much appreciated. You indicated that the death record for Hinda was very detailed about her parents. Do you think that R' Moses Joshua Heschel Ornstein, A.B.D. Radziwillow (Rodwil) and Tarnogrod is the same person as R' Moses Joshua Heschel Ornstein, A.B.D. Radziwillow (Rodwil) and Tarnogrod

According to my source, R' Moses Joshua Heschel Ornstein, A.B.D. Radziwillow (Rodwil) and Tarnogrod son of R' Mordecai Zeev Ornstein, A.B.D. Satanow and Kamenka and later Jampol and Lvov was the father of Hinda, who was mother of Najca, who was married to Isaac Pinchas Szper of Szczebrzeszyn.

Could it be that we have 2 different Moses, each having a daughter named Hinda? In that case, we need to know which Hinda was the mother of the Najca who was married to R' Isaac Pinchas Szper. The marriage occurred in 1827, in Szczebrzeszyn, and I'm wondering whether that record would tell us the maiden name of Najca's mother Hinda, i.e. whether it was Lev, or Ornstein. The source listed for that marriage is "Mormon microfilm reel #755,509 for Szczebrzeszyn", but I'm not sure if there is a way for me to access it. Do you have a way to access the record for the 1827 marriage of Najca and R' Isaac Pinchas Szper?

Thanks for your help with this.

Claudia

Kevin Lawrence Hanit,

Thanks so much! I got up earlier than usual today, and have been way too tired, and so I definitely managed to confuse myself! The reference I gave earlier (the Mormon microfilm), was actually for the marriage of G11.1 Hinde to Isser Rottenberger.

Anyway... I see now that the marriage document for the marriage of Neitsche Rottenberger and Isaac Pinchas Szper has been reproduced on page 582. Unfortunately, the document is challenging to read (I can't read the main text), and I don't think it tells us what the maiden name of Neitsche's mother Hinde was (i.e. Lew vs. Ornstein).

On the other hand, I see that the marriage document has been signed by Isaac Pinchas Szper, and his father Naftali Szper, as well as by Neitsche/Najca, who signs her name as Rottenberger, and not as Rottenberg.

When all is said and done, I am still not sure how to resolve the conflict on Hinde's parents. Bella has R' Moses Joshua Heschel Ornstein, A.B.D. Radziwillow (Rodwil) and Tarnogrod as her father, but in "The Unbroken Chain", we have R' Moses Joshua Heschel Ornstein, A.B.D. Radziwillow (Rodwil) and Tarnogrod

Claudia

Kevin Lawrence Hanit
Claudia Bullock
Please take into account that many many researchers make this mistake understanding the ending "er" in Polish and Russian surnales as a part of them. This addition was used only in ancient language to show the origin and provenance of a person from certain family.
The best way to understand this is to refer to a German language examples of: "BerlinER", "KrakowER, "WarshcauER" that only mean "attribution to". I hope this explanation will help you to understand better the strange nature of Najca's "irregular" surname writing in the earlier years of the 19th century. Later, in Russian language papers this style is stil be very alive in some towns. But we cannot of course base our comprehension on this "ER" ending as on the original one.

What about Hinda's father...Kevin, please send me the scanned copy of her marriage record if you have. I would like to read the original if it's possible. If she mentioned as "v Orensztejn" or "divorced woman" it could be the only chance to link her to R'Orensztajn: she isn't linked in any papers to him so far. Let's not speculate about before it's proven by historical documents.
The maiden name of Hinda could be searched in her children's birth records in Krasnik. Sometimes the maiden name of baby's mother is well presented. But it's also not a rule of course. Just a hope.

Bella Marianchik

Bella Marianchik,

Thanks for clearing up the confusion about the use of 'Rottenberger' on the marriage document. What you say makes perfect sense.

I am wondering now about how Krasnik and Szczebrzeszyn are related to each other. Is one contained within the other, or are they separate towns that are near to each other? The reason I ask is that the marriage of Hinda to Isser Rottenberg is reportedly in the Szczebrzeszyn records, and the marriage of her daughter Najca to Isaac Pinchas Szper also occurred in Szczebrzeszyn, yet you have indicated that the children of Hinde were born in Krasnik. There are a number of children currently listed on the Geni profile of Hinde, however, the only ones I had previously known about were Najca and Abraham, because they were the only 2 listed in the book "The Unbroken Chain", however, I did not have a place of birth listed there for either of them and so I noticed when you had indicated Krasnik. The book also indicates that HInde's son Abraham was ABD Zawichost and Josefow, and I am wondering where those places might be in relation to Krasnik and Szczebrzeszyn.

Bella Marianchik and Kevin Lawrence Hanit,
Regarding the original marriage document for Hinde and Isser Rottenberg, there is a Family History Center in my town, not far from me (https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/en/Lawrence_Kansas_Family_History...) which might possibly have access to that document, so I will contact them to inquire, once they are open again. They close down for the last 2 weeks of December, but maybe could be open tomorrow, even though it will be New Years Day. The citation I have regarding Hinde's marriage says "Mormon microfilm reel #755,509 for Szczebrzeszyn", so that is what I will ask them about. Bella, if I am successful in obtaining a copy, I will definitely share it with you.

Claudia

Bella Marianchik and Kevin Lawrence Hanit,

I was able to locate the following information for Film #755509 on the Family Search website. What I'm not sure of is whether or not the record can be viewed at the Local Family History Center, which is an affiliate of the main center in Utah. That is what I want to find out:

Film/Digital Notes
Akta urodzeń, małżeństw, zgonów 1825-1830, 1832-1839
Location
Family History Library
Collection/Shelf
International B1 Floor Film
Film
755509
Image Group Number (DGS)
7954908

Claudia

Kevin Lawrence Hanit and Bella Marianchik

A couple more things I want to mention.

First off, the above film is also specifically referenced for the details of the 1827 marriage of Neitsche / Najca and Isaac Pinchas Szper , which I would presume to be the same document that was reproduced on page 582 (Volume 4, Chapter 12) of The Unbroken Chain.

That said, with regard to the marriage of Hinde and Isser Rottenberg, I'm now thinking that the citation could not be for their marriage. The citation I mentioned earlier ("Mormon microfilm reel #755,509 for Szczebrzeszyn") was given as a footnote to the following entry:

G11.1 Hinde, married Isser Rottenberger.

But, if I'm understanding correctly, that particular film only covers births, marriages, and deaths for Szczebrzeszyn that occurred between 1825 and 1839, and that would not cover the time period during which Isser and Hinde would have been married, or the time period during which either of them died. So, I am a bit confused about how this reference is connected to the above entry.

Claudia

Kevin Lawrence Hanit,

Thanks for narrowing that down for me :). I think they will be closed until Monday, so I'll contact them then. The Lawrence Kansas Family History Center (located in my town) is a branch facility of the Family History Iibrary, so hopefully they will be able to help me.

Claudia

Bella Marianchik,

I will also see if I can get the Krasnik birth records for the children of Isser Rottenberg and Hinda, to check for a maiden name there as well.

Claudia

Kevin Lawrence Hanit,

According to Chapter 12, page 586, G12.4 Shifra Breindel Auerbach was the daughter of R' Menachem Mendel Auerbach, A.B.D. Kremenets however, in Geni we show him as her husband's father.

This is what it says in the book:

G12.4 Shifra Breindel, married R. Haim. Their descendants adopted the surname Auerbach.

I don't know which is correct.

Claudia

@Kevin Lawrence Hanit
@Claudia Bullok
Dear friends, I was able to prove that R’ Mosze of Tarnogrod had the surname Lew (Lwow). I found his son’s Szmul marriage record in Zamosc from 1817 №111 in Roman Catholic Archive of Zamosc. He came to Zamosc to marry the daughter of Szaul and Frymet Wahl - the local Rabbi - Rella Wahl.
I attached the document’s scan to his and his wife’s profiles.
Please have a look (two pages record attached in the “Overview” rubric)
His profile:

R' Samuel Jacob Ornstein

In this document you can find:
1) the age of Szmul Lew
2) first name of Rebecin of Tarnogrod - CHANA LEW (maiden name - SEGAL [SAGAL])
3) first name of Szmuel’s wife - RELLA WAHL - future Rebecin
4) the date of their marriage in Zamosc
5) the proof that the Rabbi of Tarnogrod MOSZKO had the nickname/surname LEW [LWOW]
6) the hint that R’ MOSZKO and CHANA LEW from Tarnogrod were probably the parents of HINDA ROTENBERG as they are well mentioned in her death record from Turobin (record attached to her profile)

Please let me know if it will be enough to merge two Hinda’s profiles or you prefer to look into her own marriage certificate as you planned?

Regards,
Bella Marianchik

Bella Marianchik,

I am still concerned that we might have 2 different Moses, each having a different daughter named Hinda. According to "The Unbroken Chain", the Hinde who was the mother of Najca/Neitsche Rottenberg was the daughter of R. Moses Joshua Heschel Ornstein, born 1774 and died in 1824, ABD Radziwillow (RodWil), but your HInde seems to be the daughter of a different Moses, i.e. R' Mosze of Tarnogrod, who you have proven had the surname of Lew.

So that is why I think,we need to know which Hinda was the mother of the Najca who was married to R' Isaac Pinchas Szper.

What I would like to do is to provide you an electronic copy of the marriage record for Hinde's daughter Najca/Nietsche to Isaac Pinchas Szper, which occurred in 1827 in Szczebrzeszyn, so that you can read the whole thing, and see if it mentions Hinde's maiden name, i.e. whether it is Lew or Ornstein. The Family History Center wasn't open when I tried to go there on Monday. Apparently they were closed for a New Year's break on January 1-4th. I am going to go there on Saturday during daylight hours, because the rest of this week the only hours are at night and I don't like to drive in the dark. It will be the same document that Neil Rosenstein reproduced in the book "The Unbroken Chain", however, I think that the hard copy in the book will be more difficult to read because the background is too dark, and I think the letters didn't show up clearly enough. I want to make sure that I get you a good copy that you would be able to read and translate.

Claudia

@Claudia Bullok
Dear Claudia, I don’t need the copy of the record of Najca’s marriage from 1827. It’s available online from the State Archive internet site. I already have it and could read it many times. There isn’t any Hinda’s maiden name mentioned in it. Please have a look: https://www.szukajwarchiwach.gov.pl/en/skan/-/skan/a39ebed37f9cf1ed...

The only thing you can try to get: the marriage record of Hinda Rotenberg with her husband Isser Rotenberg. The only chance to see Hinda’s maiden name. Or some record of one of Hinda’s children’s births from Krasnik.

By the way, the details about Szmul Lew perfectly fit the profile of R’ Moszek /Mozes/ Orensztajn’ s son Szmul Jakob Orensztajn. And it wasn’t me that created this profile. Please have a look:
R' Samuel Jacob Ornstein

One more thing: the nickname “ Lew “ could be only the indication of belonging to a family with the origins like Löw/ Löwensztajn or simply originated from LWOW. Because in the birth record of Szmul Jakob’s son he mentioned as “from ASZKENAZ family” without any specific surname. Please take into account that surnames were compulsory only from 1822 for Jews in Poland. Before this moment, especially in the Roman Catholics’ books Jews changed their nicknames all the time they were registered ( spelling/ full or partially mentioned surnames/ their town of origin played the role of surname/ father’s name instead of surname that was later dropped ect..)
So it could easily be that Lew=Orensztajn ect.

Claudia Bullock
If you want to verify anything about Tarnogrod years before 1826 you need this collection
Akta stanu cywilnego Parafii Rzymskokatolickiej w Tarnogrodzie. Ask for AKTA CYWILNE.
There must be the death certificate of Moszko Lew?? Orensztajn from 1824 if he died in Tarnogrod

Bella Marianchik,

Thanks for letting me know that you already have Najca's 1827 marriage record, and for confirming that it doesn't show her mother's maiden name. I followed the link that you provided, and it is definitely the exact same document that was reproduced by Neil Rosenstein in the book "The Unbroken Chain".

I will go to the Family History Center on Saturday and seek help in finding an 1824 death record in Tarnogrod for R' Moses Joshua Heschel Ornstein / Moszko Lew. I can see your point about how they might be the same person. Incidentally, in "The Unbroken Chain" it does not actually specify where R' Moses Joshua Heschel Ornstein died or where he is buried, however, it does say that he was the author of Yam HaTalmud, which was published in Lvov, in 1825, i.e. just after his death in 1824. I am only mentioning this because of your comment about how the name Lew could be a reference to the family originating from Lwow.

While I do understand your point about surnames not being compulsory prior to 1822 in Poland, it still seems to me that in prominent rabbinical families, surnames were in use long before that date, and it is my understanding that this had been the case in the Ornstein family.

Indeed I would like to find a record for the marriage of Hinde to Isser Rottenberg, but I am not sure when or where that marriage would have occurred, so I am not sure where to look. In "The Unbroken Chain", the statement that Hinde was married to Isser Rottenberger has a footnote following Isser Rottenberger's name, which cites the microfilm reel that contains the 1827 marriage record of their daughter Najca. I have no citation that actually tells me where I can find the marriage record for HInde and Isser Rottenberg.

I had attempted to search JewishGen for the birth record of Najca, daughter of Isser Rottenberg and Hinde, which according to "The Unbroken Chain" occurred about 1807, although it does not indicate where. I could see that there were other children of Isser Rottenberg and Hinde, who were born after 1826, but Najca was not listed there because she was born before that date. When I go to the Family History Center, I should be able to find copies of the birth records for the children born after 1826, but I'm not sure how to find Najca's. In any case, we could check to see whether Hinde's maiden name is listed on one of those records.

With regard to Samuel Jacob Ornstein and Szmul Lew, I guess the point is that both Moszko Lew and Moses Joshua Heschel Ornstein both had a son with the same given name.

Claudia

Bella Marianchik,

I see now where you've just added the record for Szmul Lew with Rabbi of Tarnogrod, Moszco Lew, as his father:

R' Samuel Jacob Ornstein

Does the marriage record show that his fathers name was Moszko Lew, and also that his father was Rabbi of Tarnogrod? I am trying to understand how you connected Moszko Lew as Rabbi of Tarnogrod, because if that is the case, then this would seem to confirm that R' Moses Joshua Heschel Ornstein, A.B.D. Radziwillow (Rodwil) and Tarnogrod is the same person as R' Moses Joshua Heschel Ornstein, A.B.D. Radziwillow (Rodwil) and Tarnogrod in which case we should definitely merge the two.

Also, it appears that you have now created 2 copies of Moszko Lew as follows, which are showing up as a tree match, and should be merged as well:

https://www.geni.com/merge/compare/6000000181402576841?return=match...

Let me know what you think.

Thanks,
Claudia

Claudia Bullock

Well, I am sure that you are probably not going to obtain the birth record of Najca. Because the towns the family could lived in - Tarnogrod, Krasnik and Lwow never had the Jewish (or included Jews) civil records before 1810 - the moment Napoleon obliged Polish Church authorities to register Jews the same way the Chatolics, Evangelists and Orthodox were registered.
The special Codex of Napoleon made Jewish civil records legal in the majority of towns and shtetls since 1810 under the name Urzad Stanu Civilnego (special books where all Jewish births/ marriages and deaths were registered together with Poles of Roman Catholic confession) only after 1825 Jews were obliged to maintain their own bureaucracy apart from the local Churches.

However, in some very important towns as Wodzyslaw and Krakow for example Jewish books existed even earlier - since 1789 - but in our case it won’t work: Tarnogrod and Krasnik were tiny communities and, of course there would not be any Jewish records earlier than 1810.
So, if only Najca was born in 1810 (or registered with delay! in 1810 or later - that was also very common in many many Jewish families in Poland!) you will be lucky to find her birth record. You can search in Tarnogrod or Krasnik (the home town of Rotenberg family)

Normally the marriage could have place in the hometown of Hinda - Tarnogrod. If not there - in Krasnik - town№2. If neither there - in Zamosc- town №3. Because the general rule says the marriage registration was made in the brides’ home place. Sometimes the first children of the couple also were born there.

If not….There is the last chance. But very good one: so-called ALLEGATA - the collection of original documents that were a “mast have” for everyone that went to get married one day.
Jewish synagogues (as well as the Roman Catholic Churches asked for the proofs (Metrika) of the age and legal documents from each person getting married.
The documents that were asked are following papers:
1) the birth certificate - the original exactions from the local synagogue’s birth registrations book, signed by the local notary or the court clerk proving the age, name, birthdate and address of groom/ bride

2) in case the groom/ bride wasn’t registered at their birth (at all - it was also quite common rule in Jewish families, especially for daughters - in order to hide their real age in case they couldn’t marry soon), one had to present a paper signed by at least two witnesses guaranteed the truth about the above mentioned facts: real age/ legal-illegal parents’ relationship/ birthdate ect…This type of document called “Akta znanyia”.

3) in case someone of bride’s/ groom’s parent died before their marriage they asked the proof - the death certificate (facultative paper in some towns).

4) together with those documents, the official “announcements” in local synagogues - the papers made by local Rabbi were also attached.

5) the last paper - the original marriage certificate itself - with signatures of all witnesses and of the Rabbi that made the ceremony an stamped. Yes, it partially copied the record we’ve already have from 1827 but it could be more detailed if only survived in the Archives.

The normal practice of the State Archive - very few of ALLEGATA are scanned. But normally they exist in many towns and actually they are the most interesting historical pieces than the civil records books.
If you won find Najca’s birth record at all you can try a chance to ask for the ALLEGATA papers from Zamosc attached there just before her marriage with Pinkwas Szper.

Concerning the Tarnogrod rabbinical “double” Moszko/Mozes/ Lew/Orensztajn ect. that you think there were two local Rabbi with similar name Moszko that could have had two sons with similar name…Very hard to believe. Why? Because Polish King and later Russian authorities that ruled in Poland allowed only one official head of Jewish community at a time. If we find the documents saying “the Rabbi of the town…” it means he was the only one without any parallel Rabbi in Tarnogrod during all these years (we have at least few years period between the marriage of Szaul Jakob and the birth of his son and his father Moszko still be the Rabbi of Tarnogrod all these years!)
It gives us the idea that Moszko Lew [ Lwow] and Moszko Orensztajn (here I’m totally agree with you it was his real family name) - it’s a one and the very same person.

For your information I’ve found the Orensztajn family story online with very detailed story about this family written by the descendants

http://theornsteinoracle.blogspot.com/2011/?m=1

It’s well corresponding to my hypothesis that the name “LEW” comes from “LÖW” rabbinical dynasty of Prague. Please read this aisle, it’s ver interesting. By the way they mentioned the family Wahl I’ve found the link yesterday by marriage of the son of R’ Orensztajn.

Basically I don’t see any obstacles you can merge two profiles of R’ Mosze Orensztajn and R’ Mosze Lew of Tarnogrod. But of course it will be perfect to find the proofs that Hinda belongs to his family. I’m looking forward to seeing the results of your visit to the Family History Center.

Bella

Bella Marianchik,

Thank you for sharing your wealth of information and knowledge. Yes, I totally agree that there could not have been two rabbis of the same town, both having a son with the same name! Indeed, I had not realized that you had identified Moszko Lew as being rabbi of Tarnogrod, but if you are sure that Moszco Lew was rabbi in Tarnogrod, then surely he had to be the same person as Moshe Joshua Heschel Ornstein, who was ABD Tarnogrod. Really, I was only asking you where it is written that Moszco Lew was the name of the rabbi in Tarnogrod, and it is possible that you already told me the source previously, and that I completely missed it. In any case, we should proceed with the merges.

I will follow the link that you provided to the Ornstein blog, and read what is there. And I think I will also have to print out the specific guidance and instructions that you have provided to take with me when I got to the Family History Center.

Thanks again,

Claudia

Kevin Lawrence Hanit,

These are duplicate profiles for G18.5 Michael Elliot (Mordecai Eliezer) Cheslow from Chapter 12, page 589:

Private

Private

And these are duplicate profiles for his wife:

Private

Private User

Claudia

Claudia Bullock - you probably noticed, but in case you did not - one of those four is a Geni User.

Kevin Lawrence Hanit,

This is the profile for G19.2 Yoel Weiss, from Chapter 12, page 591:

Private

He needs to be connected to his parents:

G18.1 Shulem Weiss, ABD Kireme-Williamsburg

Private

G18.1 Shuem Weiss's wife (daughter of R. Chaim Yosef Leitner, ABD Montevideo-Williamsburg)

Private

Claudia

Bella Marianchik,

So far I have obtained the following vital records, and have attached them to the corresponding geni profiles, as follows:

1) 1833 birth record for Rabbi Abram Rotenberg, A.B.D. Zawichost and Josefow

2) 1827 birth record and 1829 death records for Udla Rotenberg

3) 1826 death record for Ester Rotenberg

Could you read them and let me know what information you find out? Do any of these records show a maiden name for their mother, Hinde?

Thanks!

Claudia

Claudia Bullock

Unfortunately nothing special in these papers concerning Hinda’s maiden name. Only her “Herszkowna” patronymic mentioned in the birth record of Abraham Rotenberg
The other papers even don’t mention any further details about her - only her Rotenberg surname.
But she also had another daughter - Ruchla born in c1812 and Malka - born in c1819 in Krasnik. May be their birth certificates containing the necessary information about Hinda?

I’m going to search their death certificates as well. May be we’ll have more chance

Bella

Bella Marianchik,

Thanks, the problem I ran into with Rucha and Malka is that they were born before 1826, just like Najca, whereas Abraham and Udla, were born after that date, so it was easier to find the birth records for them. Also, I found the death record for Ester since she died in 1826, but no birth record. That is a good idea though to search for death certificates for the others as well, if you can find them.

As for Malka, in particular, I saw that her Geni profile says that she was married to Abram Zylberblum in 1837, however, the marriage record I found in JRI Poland indicates that Abraham Zylberblum was married to a Malka who was daughter of Josek Rotenberg, rather than Isser Rotenberg, so I had assumed that this was a different Malka. Let me know what you think.

Claudia

Claudia Bullock

I’ve checked the Residents’ books of Lublin - house №409 where Malka and Abram Zylberblum lived (two different editions - of 1839 and 1858)and her parents mentioned there as Isser and Hinda and Krasnik mentioned as her birthplace. So it’s well her. The mistake of Josek could be made in the transcription of the records (by J R I) : they badly read the first letter “S” thinking it was “O” and for the last “R” they thought it was “K”. I see this kind of mistakes in their tables almost everyday and not much surprised.
By the way I found Abram’s death in Warszawa from 1855. He was already widowed and probably lived with his children there. Malka’s death not found so far but I’m working on it.

Concerning the records before 1825 they are all in Roman Catholic archive books. If only in Krasnik existed (and survived!) such records.

Bella

Bella Marianchik,

Thanks, that makes sense.

Claudia