Early MacLeod sources and issues

Thanks for listing the sources in such an orderly fashion, it has been quite confusing trying to keep track of them and their arguments.

4) "The MacLeods: The History of a Clan," by I.F. Grant is available at the New York Public Library, so after school tomorrow I can run over to take a look at it and report back.

Cool!

Tamás Flinn Caldwell-Gilbert, if you happen to notice my fingerprints on that copy, don't tell anyone ;)

I used to work just a couple of blocks from NYPL, and used to accept Isabel Grant as gospel.

It’s available on Amazon, used of course, for $80.

Alas.

$48 plus shipping on ABE.
https://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?an=Grant&bi=0&am...

Insider tip: always check Abebooks.com for used books. You'll often get lower prices and wider availability because it's not as difficult for booksellers to list there as it is for them to list on Amazon.

True. Still more than I can shell out though.

I'm oh so tempted. But I think what I will do instead is add it to my ABE want list. I'm trying to prioritize my buying. So, unless there's suddenly a fantastic deal on something -- it happens -- I want to keep to the plan.

That Sellar speaks so highly of it means a lot to me. And her biography is quite interesting.

Next installment!

So, that was a precis of the sources. At the time of this writing, Leod, 1st Chief of Clan MacLeod does not have Olaf the Black as a father, which is good, cause that is a very dated and untrue tradition, but Guillemuire / Olvir is attached as his father.

This is based on the theory given by Sellar, in the article above. In brief, once the story of Leod being the son of Olaf has been debunked (chronologically it does not hold, as one has to suppose an unknown first wife for Olaf, and tellingly, there is no contemporary evidence for the connection), Sellar turns to four genealogies, all dating from around 1400 or later -- so, also not contemporary evidence -- which give, in one case, Gillemuire, as the father of Leod, and in three cases, Olbar, in different spellings.

Sellar notes that the pedigrees are closely allied, and explains his view of how the name Gillemuire became Olbar: "Given that the Gaelic pronunciation of “son of Gillemuire” (mac (Gh)illemhuire) and “son of Olvir” (mac Olbhuir) is very similar, especially when spoken in the course of a long genealogical “run”, it is easy to see how “Gillemuire” could have been assimilated to “Olvir”, given the prominence of the latter name in MacLeod tradition."

I think, myself, that Sellar makes a very good case for assigning Guillemhuire as Leod's father, and that we should leave that connection -- though notes and Overview need to be bulked up with links and explanations.

So that is one issue. Shall we leave that connection?

And further!

We have Tormod as the son of Leod -- and Torquil not as Leod's son, but his grandfather.

This is also correct -- MacKenzie's book has Torquil as Leod's son, but this has long been known to be untrue.

And at the time of this writing we have no duplicate lines attaching Torquil to Leod -- and Leod's relationships are locked down -- so that's ok.

But let's talk about Tormod / Norman MacLeod, 2nd Chief !

At the moment we have several children for him.

the evidence for Leod and Godfrey comes from the Bannatyne MS from the early 19th century, which is not, according to Matheson, a good source -- it gives the only evidence we have for Leod and Godfrey, and doesn't mention Murdoch, for whom we have a great deal of evidence elsewhere.

The evidence that Christina Fraser was the mother of the Leod and Godfrey who probably weren't there is given by Morrison, who says "it is said" that she married Tormod. I myself find this unconvincing.

Morrison also gives Tormod a son Norman, which is usually an Englishing of Tormod, but in this case, since we are told that he is the founder of the Siol Tormoid, is a mistake for Tormod himself. Who is the founder of the Siol Tormoid.

In essence!

For one thing some of the children are duplicates of each other, so I can just go fix that.

But Leod and Godfrey need to be disconnected; there is no good evidence for them.

Norman needs to be disconnected because he is really his father.

Christina Fraser needs to be disconnected because that connection is shaky. And also her children did not exist.

That is enough for today. I will check in later.

I too think that, having read Sellar's article, that we should go with the Guillemhuire parentage. In the absence of concrete primary source materials, it makes sense to abide by the oldest lineage available, as that is closest to the events (especially compared to the later 18th and 19th century lineages) and Sellar makes quite a strong argument for them.

Unfortunately, Grant's book is not very helpful for our purposes, as she chooses to focus on the overall history of the MacLeod Clan and not on the specifics of its genealogies. While Grant generally abides by R.C. MacLeod's lineage and has Olaf as Leod's father, she mentions other conflicting positions but makes no real attempt to examine or reconcile them in detail and brushes aside the Gaelic lineages as "extremely cryptic" (p. 25). Because Grant focuses on history over genealogy, her later generations are quite difficult to follow and keep track of, but she has Tormod, the second chief, as the son of Leod, or possibly the grandson of Leod and son of a Tormod Sr. (p. 31) and Torquil as a son of Leod.

Thanks for the update on Grant. I will no longer mourn not having the volume.

Sounds like it is an excellent history of the MacLeods, but not necessary for our purposes.

Does THIS Neil....

Neil Campbell

....have anything to do with THIS Neil....

Neil Campbell

???

Not that we know.

A couple of days ago, I was blood to Gilliecoluim / Malcolm MacLeod, 3rd Chief , now I'm not. I had just started following him. Is someone watching all of my activity?

Diana Collins — There wouldn’t be any connection between someone following your activity and the direct line to anybody getting cut.

I haven’t been working yet on the MacLeods at that level, so I don’t know off hand what might have changed in your line.

But when pieces of the medieval tree are in the process of getting cleaned up, lines do change.

However, it’s not at all clear that the issue has anything to do with the medieval profiles. That’s a long line. It could have been changed anywhere on the line.

Thank you very much Chelsey. I'll look over it this weekend. Perfect timing, too. I'm thinking about getting a kilt soon, something with either the Drummond or Kenney colors on it. Thank you for thinking of me.

Have there been DNA research of MacLeod? I took both YDNA 111 and autosomal DNA and have hit with MacLeod.

I have following YDNA
CTS6868 C+
L813 G+
Y8943 T+
FGC17581

L813 is quite interesting since it called the viking DNA because it is ultra norse.

I would love to see some dna charts. I have many dna matches from people that descend from MacLeod and McLeod. Here is just one... an Emily Hilliard that descends from

John Macleod, 16th of Macleod

https://www.geni.com/path/Diana+is+related+to+John-Macleod-16th-of-...

https://www.geni.com/path/Diana+is+related+to+John-Macleod-16th-of-...

Our common ancestor is here....

Sir John Savage IV of Clifton, K.G.

My 15th great grandparents.

I would also be blood to his wife Sibella Mackenzie

Our common Ancestor would be here....

John Stewart, 1st Earl of Atholl

My 15th great grandparents.

I match a Kevin Elliott that is a descendant of a Donald McLeod born 1775 in Sutherland, Scotland and his wife Margaret McKay.

I match a Jeanette (McLeod) Antoniak....no tree, but her McLeod's were from Michigan; Ontario, Canada; Invernessshire, Scotland)

Another named Richard Perry that descends from different branches of MacLeod. A Torquil MacLeod that married a Catherine Campbell. And an Alastair MacLeod that was married to a Margaret Cameron. Says Ivernessshire, Scotland.

Dianna, according to Geni, John Macleod, 16th of Macleod is my 7th cousin 10 times removed through my mom. I haven't done my DNA yet, but I am hoping to get it done soon. My grandmother was a Steward, and my grandfather was a Fletcher. I am very excited to see the results and will share them with you once it's complete.

Also, Sir John Savage, IV, of Clifton, Knight of the Garter is my first cousin 17 times removed on my dad's side.

A Richard MacNeil that goes back to Roderick MacLeod born 1573 and his wife Isabel MacDonell. Says Scotland.

A Dr. Barbara Rae-Venter. She has different branches to MacLeod / McLeod. One being an Angus McLeod, born 1715, married to a Dorothy. In Sutherland, Scotland. I also match her brother.

Here is my connection.
John Macleod, 16th of Macleod is your 19th cousin five times removed.