Christian Waddington (unknown) - Relationship to Ka Okee cut?

And once again this is not Cherokee people we are talking about so........................

Sooooo thankful that DNA does not discriminate

And yet ANOTHER reason why paper isn't always the best route

From 1607-1776, most immigrants settled in the colonies and were not required to document their arrival. An exception is the records for the arrival of about 40,000 Germans in Pennsylvania from 1727-1808.

https://www.genealoger.com/genealogy/gen_immigration_records.htm

And ANOTHER reason

Several Virginia counties, most of them in the eastern part of the state, have suffered tremendous loss of their early county/court records usually as the result of intense military activity that occurred during the Civil War, and others lost records in fires. At some point, almost everyone conducting genealogical or historical research will face the problem of finding information from a so-called "Burned Record County." Burned record counties might be grouped into three basic categories: “most records lost”, “many records lost”, and “some records lost” Included in the “most records lost” category are James City, New Kent, Buckingham, Nansemond, Dinwiddie (before 1782), Appomattox, Buchanan, King and Queen, King William, Warwick, and Henrico (before 1677). “Many records lost” would include Hanover, Prince George, Elizabeth City, and Gloucester. “Some records lost” counties are Caroline, Charles City, Mathews, Prince William, Stafford, Rockingham, and Nottoway.

http://yanceyfamilygenealogy.org/virginia_burned_record_counties.htm

The average person can walk about 3 miles per hour. Based on that 80 miles would take 26.67 hours or 26 hours, 45 minutes. (80 divided by 3)

BUT, that assumes that the person keeps up the same pace and never stops once they started walking. You'd have to factor in stopping to rest/sleep, and to eat, etc, and that the weather was good, and they weren't stopped by anything or anyone.

Realistically - 35 hours

I don't think it would be wrong to assume that people walked any slower (or faster) in the 1800's than people do today.

https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100504123707AAmvCkt&...

I know for a fact the average person can walk 3 miles per hour because that's how far I walk on my daily walks and it takes me 57 minutes and 32 seconds to walk that far. If you were on a horse or on the waterways you could go even faster so an 80 mile distance would be no problem.

The two Richard Bryants who were transported to Virginia about1650 are different men from the man who wrote the will and died in 1704. They would have been much older men. There are three (or more) Richard Bryants in 17th century Virginia. All arrivals are not documented, but land records survive and thousands of people are named in them.

Re: Msg https://www.geni.com/discussions/197042?msg=1304239

I’ll just point out that several of the trees quoted are citing the same (problematic) Shawnee Heritage source: and anyway, 1000 trees don’t make it so. :)

Is there any record (not tree) of a Lucy Doniphan?

Is there any record that the Silent Bryant who left a widow Grace had any children?

No and no.

Then Geni had better stop using this site https://www.colonial-settlers-md-va.us/getperson.php?personID=I0393...

Because it seems that very site is the one that is brought up again and again for documentation to cut lines

Lucy Doniphan is mentioned on Pages 612, 613 & 614 of Genealogies of Virginia Families: From Tyler's Quarterly ..., Volume 1
By Tylers Quarterly Historical and Geneological Magazine

https://books.google.com/books?id=55I38FXWyPgC&pg=RA2-PA871&amp...

Lucy Doniphan is mentioned in the Truman Library. Lucy is a nickname -- real name is Lucretia (although it's not the same Lucy that married Silent Bryant, she is in the SAME family ie, Doniphan, Mott, Anderson & Monteith)

https://www.trumanlibrary.org/genealogy/index.php?m=family&id=587

Yes, Tyler’s article is a source for the Harry Truman tree on Geni, and Lucy is a Doniphan name. You’ll see here

https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000086799561013&

That I matched the article with the corresponding name mentioned in the article. There’s also a diagram on page 622, added to profiles

https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000084209214335&

Obviously, Tyler’s may not have had all the info on all the Doniphans.

I don’t see this Lucy (Doniphan) Bryant on Mike Marshall’s site in tree view; his site is a more modern compilation.

https://www.colonial-settlers-md-va.us/descend.php?personID=I024713...

And yes, I’ve seen errors, or placements I disagree with, at “Early Colonial Settlers of Southern Maryland and Virginia's Northern Neck Counties.” Which doesn’t lessen its value as a research tool at all; he’s done a great job and the site is a great service.

The Lucy Doniphan in the “Early Colonial Settlers” database was born in 1796. The claim under discussion is that woman named Lucy Doniphan lived in the Stafford County area in the second half of the 17th century and was married to Silent Bryant. The only male Silent Bryant at this time was married to a woman named Grace.

Added Avatar from Truman LIbrary.

That Lucy Doniphan was born 1760. Just saying.

Thanks. WIll remove avatar.

@Christisn Pettus. Looking for those who might be of the line of Mary Fufate. Just trying to connect the dots

Kim

Kimberly Pickle I am of the Fugate/Martin line. I am still wondering what exactly was the basis for disconnecting Christian.

The Supporting data for Christian Waddington’s parents is speculation only. The available records suggest that she had a known sister, that she was born about 1627, and there are no known records tying them or their descendants to the Pettus family.

However the Martin & Fugate descent looks very good & has multiple citations.

Unfortunately the records for early Virginia are scarce and not likely to improve, and most of most of the Virginia tribes peoples long since died out (war & disease). If you’re looking to find a Native American ancestress, mtDNA seems the best route; and as far as I know there are no studies yet done (Mother > mother > mother). It’s too distant for atDNA to offer more than clues, at least in my opinion.

Quoting ( https://www.geni.com/projects/Bolling-SNP-Studies/48870 ) 2/10/18 We have a consusus on the last name for Penelope due to 2 primary sources calling it Bolling: one is in the book Early Settlers of Alabama and the other in a Library of Virginia article, both put into the Source section of Penelope (Bolling) Clark. Also, we have a few SNPs that are common to the Martin /Fugate side of the cousin aisle that lines up beautifully on the 10 4,6, through 66 to the Powell claimants of Bolling on the side of the aisle from the same said Clarks from England and here is the Bolling side of the aisles' claimed ancestor: Elizabeth (Bolling) Ellis-Ferrabee- Powell, a paper trail (and SNP mapped) descendants x 150 participants comparison study ancestor. These kits were compared to the 1/3 total dna matching Johnson descendants on 23andMe which automatically comes up with a compact triangulation embedded into its service and at a glance, is easy to see that they do not line up with the Bolling cousins in the same SNPS. For example: This is the line to the 150 participating claimants to Bollings in the line of → Capt Kedar Keaton, Voting legislator for founding of Old Cheraws' District, SC his father → Hester Keaton his mother → John Powell her father → Elizabeth (Bolling) Ellis-Ferrabee- Powell his mother → Richard Bolling of Norfolk her father → Thomas Bolling his father → Anne Bolling his mother - common to the Bollings and the Johnsons down the line from the daughter of Penelope (Clark) Bolling's daughter who married a Johnson. Rule out Johnson as Penelope's birth sirname for the Penelope who married Capt Christopher, I.

Sorry for the very late addition to this discussion, but I just noticed it and I'm struggling to understand the talk about DNA in this thread. It's my understanding that the X chromosome is not all that "sticky". Men only have one X chromosome and they pass it along intact to their daughters, because there's nothing else they can do with it. But women have two X chromosomes, and they recombine just like any other chromosome pair. I only have a significant match with my second cousin once removed for 34% of my X DNA - his grandmother and my great-grandmother were sisters, and he's the only male in the chain of descent. That's not very far back.

It's my understanding that you can't use atDNA to identify a common ancestor after about 5 to 7 generations. After that, any similarities are probably coincidence or evidence that the matches descended from the same general population. Europeans can upload their DNA to Gedmatch and find out what percentage of their ancestors were Eastern Hunter-Gatherers versus Western Hunter-Gatherers versus Neolithic Farmers because these large populations are visible in the DNA. But you can't use it to prove that someone is your eighth cousin.

X DNA tends to persist longer because of the quirky way it passes down, particularly if you have a line that alternates perfectly in a mother-son-mother-son sequence for many generations. But in general it seems unlikely that you can use it to prove a connection to someone who lived 400 years ago. The article at https://genie1.com.au/x-dnas-helpful-inheritance-patterns/ has a chart showing how much it drops off after a few generations. Ka-Okee was listed as my 10th great-grandmother before the tree was changed, and that's way off the chart. I wouldn't expect to find anything significant that could be tied to her.

:Elizabeth or Rebecca Waugh, one of multiple wives born after the death of her mother Ka Okee "Jane" Pettus, of the Patawomeck.

People who know how use autonomic dna with ISOGG Standards and are very capable of finding 10th generation ancestors, especially in lines where there are endogamy. Watching any of the Gedmatch Videos embedding in their how to clickable parts of their Tier One group chromosome browsers allows any one to plug in any kit and see who triangulates with any kit number back to the 5th generation with a click. The same type of group chromosome browser work back to the 10th generation down to 2cM is possible by pro and lay person and the videos on how are embedded within Gedmatch. Otherwise, we all need to get our money back. We can't get our money back because the products of group chromosome browsers do what they intend, help us chromosome map backwards to find our 6-10th grands who can not be found by paper trail.

I descend from Christian Pettus daughter of Ka Okee and THEODORE PETTUS - no one does research or they would know that Col Thomas
b.1610 the son of William Pettus b. 1683 (and wife Mary Gleane) arrived in VA in 1638. My 9th Great Grandmother Christian Pettus was born 1636 and they already had 5 other children from what I've been able to find. Theodore arrived September 12, 1622 and was on the Feb. 1623 James City record he's the ONLY PETTUS MAN IN VIRGINIA before 1638! You cannot have a child with a man in another country that's a fact! William also had a brother Thomas Jr b. 1598 who is on a list in PA as a married landowner and he arrived here in 1648. Capt. Thomas was born 1646 in Williamsburg the son of Col Thomas & Elizabeth Freeman (widow of Richard Durrant) he married Elizabeth Dabney and had 4 children. I spent months finding SOURCES for this family and putting the puzzle pieces together.

Unfortunately it seems more likely than not that Ka Okee is a fictional character. She keeps trying to creep into my family tree, but I don't take it seriously. There is zero known documentation that she actually existed, or married with an English settler. The Pettus family was real enough.

Keziah Bryant's mom had to be someone who was not fictional. Keziah's dad was Wero of the Patawomeck. The Wero was married to the mom of Keziah. The mom of Keziah was called "Ka Okee" for the religion of the Patawomeck instead of "Fnu". When intangibles can only be tracked in oral history for generation after generation, never changing, it is best termed intangible history versus fictional.

It isn't universally agreed that Keziah Bryant was a real person. For example there is a writeup on Wikitree with a large orange label saying "Research suggests that this person may never have existed": https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Powhatan-254

Here's an interesting discussion of Ka-Okee: https://www.indianreservations.net/2016/08/little-kocoum-or-ka-okee... Quick summary: There is contemporaneous documentation that Pocahontas had a Native husband named Kocuom, but zero record of them having a child. Reportedly there is an oral tradition saying that they had one child and it was a boy, but then the source reverses itself and says that we don't actually know anything about this child. It's also said that tribal elders "knew" they were descended from Pocahontas but didn't know how. It's about as convincing as those "Cherokee princess" stories that so many families have.

There does not appear to be an oral tradition about what this alleged child did after being born. There is no known basis for the marriage stories. I have one doubtful claim that Ka-Okee is my ancestor because she married Thomas Pettus, and another one where she is my ancestor because she married Chief Wahanganoche. Of course it's always possible that she did both, but I'll need to see some evidence before I believe either story.

Wikitree has a project that doesn't seem to be going anywhere, but there are some interesting comments at the bottom of the page: https://www.wikitree.com/g2g/278745/help-okee-powhatan-pettus-pocah... Some people think that "Kocuom" was actually a reference to John Rolfe.

A couple more Wikitree links. This one is about Ka-Okee: https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Powhatan-239

and this one is about Christian (Unknown), who was a real person who married men named Martin and Waddington. Her parents are unknown, and there's nothing to suggest that it was Thomas Pettus and/or Ka-Okee: https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Unknown-332659

Regarding the claim that it must have been Theodore Pettus who married Ka-Okee: Theodore Pettus is recorded in Virginia in 1623. Some sources say this is the only record of him in Virginia, and others say there is another record in 1626. But then he definitely vanishes from the record in both Virginia and England. We don't know whether he was dead or alive after 1626, or where he was if he was still alive.

We don't know when Thomas Pettus arrived in Virginia. About 1630 is a popular date, following the tradition that he decided to leave town after beating a murder rap in England in 1629. But there's no documentation that this actually happened, and he might not be the same Thomas Pettus who beat the rap. This isn't the only legend about him, it's also doubtful whether he actually served in the 30 Years War.

He reportedly married Elizabeth Freeman Durant in 1638 in Virginia, but I haven't seen any documentation for this date. He had definitely married her by 1643, when the relationship is mentioned in a legal document. I've seen the Ka-Okee marriage dated anywhere from 1631 to 1645. On the fun side, Wikitree has two profiles for Thomas Pettus: one for the real, documented person, and this fictional profile to go with the Ka-Okee connection: https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Pettus-192

Recordkeeping was spotty during this time period, and some records have been lost. If there aren't any Pettus records in Virginia between 1626 and 1638, it certainly doesn't prove that there weren't any Pettus men there during this time period.