William “Smith” Bryan - Do we have any evidence that William "Smith" Bryan actually existed?

Well, there's another problem with FTDNA's Y-DNA charts, with the Names of Ancestors, "Put" there by people like myself, who would naturally 'Plug in' Francis Bryan, based upon our paper-trails.
So, matching up Y-DNA facts with a "Name" can be a spurious result.

All we have there, Really, is Y-DNA results. The Names of the eldest Ancestors are entered voluntarily by the Kit number recipients....and they could be wrong, unless proven.

That's a BIG problem I have with FTDNA's DNA charts.

(All this coming from one who had Assumed to be a descendent of Francis Bryan.)

One problem with matching up the Y-DNA results is that there were lots of people back then who had the same name. it's fun to have famous ancestors, so when people see a famous-looking name on the list they tend to assume that it's the famous person, without looking at the dates carefully or doing any research to see whether it could have been someone else.

The earliest Francis Bryan on the DNA chart comes from a later time period than the well-known Sir Francis Bryan, and can't be connected to him by any known relationship to the Bryan family. If there is a known male line of descent from the father or grandfather of the well-known Sir Francis Bryan, it would be possible to establish a believable connection that way. But right now there is no such connection.

A few more discrepancies. Catherine Morgan the alleged wife of William Smith Bryan is called “Countess of Ormond” in the About section. She wasn’t, and never could have been unless she married someone else. The earldom belonged to the Butler family, and no one named Bryan or Fitzgerald had a right to it. Joan Fitzgerald was Countess of Ormond while her first husband lived, but after he was poisoned the title passed to his heir not to her family. There’s a list of the Earls of Ormond here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earl_of_Ormond_(Ireland)#Earls_of_Orm... No one named Bryan or Fitzgerald ever held the title, although Thomas Boleyn managed to get his hands on it for a while.

No one named Morgan had a right to the title either. The Morgan family was Welsh not Irish, and according to this link it looks like the relevant Sir Thomas Morgan did not have a daughter named Catherine: https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Morgan-21065 William Smith Bryan supposedly married Catherine Morgan in Denmark, but there’s no explanation for what she was doing there. It’s reported that Sir Thomas Morgan never went there.

The years around 1650 were one of the darkest periods in Irish history. The English actions in Ireland amounted to genocide, with the death toll generally estimated at 25-50% of the Irish population, plus another 50,000 forcibly removed as indentured laborers. It was a good time for any Irishman who could afford a ticket to jump on a ship and go to anywhere that wasn’t in the British Isles. That’s a much better explanation than the problematic story that’s being told about these people.

Disconnected parents for Catherine Bryan

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Morgan-21065

“He passed away before the date of probate, 21 June 1624. [1] In his will he names his wife Katherine, heir William, sons Edward and Robert, second daughter Elizabeth, Blanche, Mary and Jane. As far as I can tell, he does not name first daughter Catherine.”

The National Archives; Kew, England; Prerogative Court of Canterbury and Related Probate Jurisdictions: Will Registers; Class: PROB 11; Piece: 143

Here book I found on Bryan’s hopfully it helps.

https://books.google.com/books?id=wZiSDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT79&lpg=...

Billie

think I’ve found where James Bryant of Isle of Wight really belongs. If the people in charge here agree, then I ask that you please move him to the right place. At present, I have to throw out any line of descent that contains obviously incorrect information on the Nansemond Bryans. As mentioned earlier, the DNA results at https://www.familytreedna.com/public/bryan/default.aspx?section=yre... show that James Bryant 1656-1731 does not match the haplotype for the alleged Nansemond Bryants. So he doesn’t belong with them even if they really did exist.

Here’s the Geni profile showing James Bryant as the son of John Smith Bryan of Nansemond: James Bryant, of Isle of Wight

Here’s a Geni profile apparently listing the same person as the son of Thomas and Tabitha Bryant (notice that they spell their last name with a “t” and so does James, but the Nansemond Bryans do not): James Bryant, of Isle of Wight

The Geni listing with the Nansemond parents has a “confirmed match” link to Wikitree which says that his parents are Thomas and Tabitha, not the Nansemonds. For a moment I thought they had some DNA proof of it, but when I looked closer I realized that the “Confirmed Matches” link that appears above Geni’s DNA section doesn’t actually have anything to do with DNA results. It's just an icon that shows up no matter which tab you look at.

These two listings are not a perfect match. They both have the same death year but there’s a 14-year difference in the birth years. The ages of the parents would work with either birth year. The “Nansemond” listing shows 8 children and the “Tom and Tabby” listing only shows one, but both agree that the oldest was named William. There are strong signs that James left the area where his parents lived and moved to Isle of Wight, so there might be records of only one child in his old location. I have no reason to think that there are any errors in the list of 8 children, except for the last one (Eleanor) who was born 12 years after her mother’s death. But Eleanor is not my ancestor, so she’s not my problem lol. The child in my line of descent is Thomas Bryant, born in 1688.

Both listings show a wife named Elizabeth, so no problem there.

There are land records supporting the existence of Thomas Bryant, the “new” father of James Bryant: https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Bryant-906 Son James isn’t mentioned in the links at the top of the page, but he’s further down in the text.
The page includes a link to information on Thomas’s alleged father, but this is contested so use caution with him.

I haven’t been able to find any records supporting the existence of John Smith Bryan or any of the other Nansemond Bryans. This new connection is MUCH more plausible than the old one.

Caroline,
You might check that book I found on Bryans it has most families in it just saw controversy on Catherine Morgan and William Smith Bryan and they were in book. Maybe it help you too.

Billie

Thank you, but I did take a look at the book and immediately saw inaccurate information. For instance it says that Capt. Morgan Bryan was a son. WSB's Geni profile says that he was NOT a son. The book was written by a modern member of the Bryan family, and the chapter looks like a collection of romanticized family legends.

Carolyn,
I adding more to profiles media. You might want to look.

Billie

But this book is seriously inaccurate. It says that WSB is the grandson of Sir Francis Bryan and Joan Fitzgerald, when they had no children who survived to adulthood and may not have had any children at all. It makes a big deal about Joan Fitzgerald being a descendant of Brian Boru, and claims that WSB was his last descendant. But descendants of Brian Boru were all over the place both in Ireland and England. Geni says that I'm a direct descendant of Brian Boru for heaven's sake.

The Earls of Ormond (Butler family) were descendants of Brian Boru and you can be sure they knew it. If anyone was looking for a "Prince of Ireland" there were stronger candidates available among WSB's own alleged cousins. The only recorded children of Joan Fitzgerald were with her first husband, the Earl of Ormond, and it was a fruitful union. They had five sons, and at least some of them went on to have multiple sons themselves. Why would the Irish turn to a descendant of her English husband when there were so many full-Irish descendants of Brian Boru with a better pedigree available?

BTW if anyone needs a link to some real Irish blue bloods, try Brian Boru or the Earls of Ormond. Geni says I'm directly descended from both, through very different lines of descent that don't include the dubious Bryans of Nansemond. It might say the same for you too. This is a good Earl of Ormond to try, he's far back enough in time to have thousands of descendants. James Butler, 1st Earl of Ormond

Carolyn,
I was just looking it a reference nothing more then that. But have found other book reference to connect Catherine Morgan and William Smith Bryan. So that what I focusing on.

Billie

Billie June, I don’t even believe her name was Catherine “Morgan” (what’s a Welsh woman doing in Ireland at that time? Just another way to give the Bryan’s in America noble ancestry?).

The minute the old books start hooking in titles, the more my eyebrows raise. After a few years on Geni they’re now at the top of my head. :)

I’m told there were more Irish - Irish arriving early to America than we realize (religion, probably, being the main reason we don’t know). This Irish origin suggestion for the Bryan’s is lowering my eyebrows some.

There’s an issue with the Elizabeth wife here: Elizabeth Bryant

She belongs to James Jacquies Bryant, Sr., of King William County

So I’m having a problem with the name Elizabeth Bryant

Private User ?

Are you OK with calling her Elizabeth NN and with merging James Bryant, of Isle of Wight into James Bryant, of Isle of Wight ??

Private User Would you be able to summarize / describe the DNA evidence in the Master Profile?

Will this do? I can change it if you like, or you're welcome to change it yourself.

“Traditional” line of descent. The DNA results for other people in the family tree have not been checked.

1. Sir Francis Bryan 1490-1550 (with wife Joan Fitzgerald)
2. Francis Bryan 1549-1640
3. William Smith Bryan 1599-1667
4. Sir Francis Bryan 1630-1694
5. James Bryant 1656-1731 (reputed son of John Smith Bryan 1626-1687 who has no DNA results)

The DNA evidence for these five individuals as of 4/27/19, based on the spreadsheet at https://www.familytreedna.com/public/bryan/default.aspx?section=yre... There is no guarantee that descendants have correctly identified the name of their common ancestor.

1. Sir Francis Bryan 1490-1550. No DNA results. Historical documents do not indicate that he had any descendants.
2. Francis Bryan 1549-1640 Line 282 of the spreadsheet.
Haplogroup R-M269 Subgroup U106/Z2265/BY30097/Z381
There are no known historical records confirming his existence.
3. William Smith Bryan Line 13 of the spreadsheet. No dates are given so we can’t tell whether this is the right person.
Haplogroup E-M35 Subgroup M96/P147/L499/P2/M215/L796/M35/V68
There are no known historical records confirming his existence.
4. Sir Francis Bryan 1630-1694 Line 273 of the spreadsheet.
Haplogroup R-M269 Subgroup U106-Z2265/BY30097/Z18/Z17/Z372/S4037
There are no known historical records confirming his existence.
5. James Bryant 1656-1731 Line 260 of the spreadsheet.
Haplogroup R-FGC54211 Subgroup U106/Z2265/BY30097/Z18/S19726
There are property records for him: https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Bryant-905

Summary: William Smith Bryan and James Bryant have different haplogroups from anyone else in the list. Francis Bryan 1549-1640 and Sir Francis Bryan 1630-1694 have the same haplogroup and there are some similarities in their subgroup. But their subgroups diverge after the third set of numbers; after that point, Francis Bryan 1549-1640 has Z381, and Sir Francis Bryan 1630-1694 has Z18/Z17/Z372/S4037

You're right about James Bryant's wife. There is a note at https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Bryant-905 telling people that Elizabeth LeFevre/ LeFarre doesn't belong with him.

Private User, again I repeat:

William Smith Bryan married Catherine Morgan (born 1604). William Smith Bryan and Catherine Morgan were both born in County Claire, Ireland. During the Puritan Rebellion, William Smith Bryan attempted to gain the throne of Ireland and was dubbed, “Prince William of Ireland” by his followers. Sometime about 1650 or 1660, William Smith Bryan and Catherine Morgan were exiled to Virginia by Oliver Cromwell for anti-English insurgent activities. He is said to have been "dropped" at Gloucester Beach, Virginia. He arrived in Virginia with a shipload of personal belongings and his wife, eleven sons, and three daughters. They were among the first English to bring horses to the British colony of Virginia. William Smith Bryan and Catherine Morgan both died in Gloucester, Virginia.

Children of William Smith and Catherine (Morgan) Bryan include:
Francis Bryan III
John Bryan
William Bryan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cromwellian_conquest_of_Ireland
http://www.carsonjohnson.com/chapter07-bryan.htm
http://wendyharrison.familytreeguide.com/descend.php?personID=I1023... <- [this link doesn’t work anymore.]

William Smith Bryan Birth 1600 in Claire, Ireland Death 1 Jun 1667 in Gloucester, Gloucester, Virginia, United States
Parents: Francis Bryan (1549 – 1640) and Ann Smith (1560 – 1635)
Spouse: Catherine Morgan (1604 – 1680)
Child: Francis Bryan (1630 – 1693)
Timeline 1600 Birth Claire, Ireland 5 source citations 1631 Age: 31 Marriage to Catherine Morgan Claire Co., Ireland
Death 6/1/1667 Death: Gloucester, Gloucester, Virginia, United States
------------------------------------------------------
U.S., Sons of the American Revolution Membership Applications, 1889-1970 about Wm Smith Bryan Name: Wm Smith Bryan SAR Membership: 52386 Children: Frances Bryan

Colonial Families of the United States of America: Volume 7 Lineage page 105 WILLIAM SMITH BRYAN was a landholder in Ireland, County Clare, at the time of the British invasion under CROMWELL, and for taking the side of Ireland was transported as a ?rebellious subject,? in 1650, to the American Colonies, with his family, goods and chattels, consisting of a ship load. He settled in Gloucester County, Virginia; he had eleven sons. Morgan BRYAN, who was in Norfolk County in 1693, was probably one of these sons. Francis BRYAN, the oldest son, returned to Ireland, in 1677, and endcavored to recover his hereditary titles and estates, but was so greatly persecuted by the English Government that he sought refuge in Denmark. After a few years he returned to Ireland. His oldest son Morgan was born in Denmark. It is believed that William BRYAN, b. in 1685, was also his son. William BRYAN and his wife, Margaret, lived at Ballyroney, County Down, Ireland. They were Presbyterians. The town of Bryansford near by is said to have been named for some of his family. William and Margaret BRYAN one day sent their little son John into the woods to cut a stick to make a handle for a book used in weaving, and he was arrested for poaching. After much trouble and [p.105] expense the father got him clear and immediately sailed for America, where, he said, timber was free and there were no constables. This was in the year 1718. William BRYAN and family settled in New Jersey or Pennsylvania. (From Bryan-Akers Family by Jesse BRYAN.
Includes NotesNotes for William Smith Bryan: Boone Family, Author: Hazel Atterbury Spraker, Call Number: R929.2 qB722.1. Bibliographic Information: Spraker, Hazel Atterbury. The Boone Family. Rutland, Vermont: The Tuttle Company, 1922.

William Smith Bryan was deported from Ireland by the British Government as a rebellious subject, and at that time was thought to be the only lineal descendant of 'Bryan Borou,' King of Ireland. The English Government shipped him with his family, goods and chattels (consisting of a ship-load) and dropped them off on Gloucester Beach, Virginia. William Smith Bryan had eleven sons and three daughters, the record of whom is lost, excepting that of;

Francis Bryan, who returned to Ireland in 1650 and made an endeavor to regain his hereditary title and estates. Being greatly persecuted by the English government, he was forced to flee to Denmark, where he married, and where his sons Morgan and William, were born. * * * Morgan Bryan removed to Ireland with his father, who was standard bearer to William and Mary of Orange, and was present at the battle of Boyne, 1690. Francis Bryan died at Belfast, Ireland, in 1694.

(ABRIDGED COMPENDIUM, Frederick Virkus A compendium of family genealogies that includes practically every name distinguished in the early history of the country, Vol. I )

William Smith Bryan, transported to Va, as a rebellious subject, settled in Gloucester Co.; Colonial Families of the United States of America: Volume 7 Lineage page 105
WILLIAM SMITH BRYAN was a landholder in Ireland, County Clare, at the time of the British invasion under CROMWELL, and for taking the side of Ireland was transported as a ‘rebellious subject,’ in 1650, to the American Colonies, with his family, goods and chattels, consisting of a ship load. He settled in Gloucester County, Virginia; he had eleven sons. Morgan BRYAN, who was in Norfolk County in 1693, was probably one of these sons. Francis BRYAN, the oldest son, returned to Ireland, in 1677, and endcavored to recover his hereditary titles and estates, but was so greatly persecuted by the English Government that he sought refuge in Denmark. After a few years he returned to Ireland. His oldest son Morgan was born in Denmark. It is believed that William BRYAN, b. in 1685, was also his son. William BRYAN and his wife, Margaret, lived at Ballyroney, County Down, Ireland. They were Presbyterians. The town of Bryansford near by is said to have been named for some of his family. William and Margaret BRYAN one day sent their little son John into the woods to cut a stick to make a handle for a book used in weaving, and he was arrested for poaching. After much trouble and [p.105] expense the father got him clear and immediately sailed for America, where, he said, timber was free and there were no constables. This was in the year 1718. William BRYAN and family settled in New Jersey or Pennsylvania. (From Bryan-Akers Family by Jesse BRYAN.
More About William Smith Bryan and Catherine Morgan: Single: Abt. 1631
———————————————————

Millennium File
Name: William Smith Bryan
Gender: Male
Birth Date: 1600
Birth Place: Claire, Ireland
Death Date: 1667
Father: Sir Frances (Jr) Bryan
Mother: Ann Smith
Spouse: Catherine Morgan
Children: Francis Iii Bryan

Source Information
Heritage Consulting. Millennium File [database on-line]. Provo, UT, USA: Ancestry.com Operations Inc, 2003.
Original data: Heritage Consulting. The Millennium File. Salt Lake City, UT, USA: Heritage Consulting.
---------------------------------------

U.S. and International Marriage Records, 1560-1900
Name: Catherine Morgan
Gender: Female
Birth Place: Ir
Spouse Name: William Smith Bryan
Spouse
Birth Place: Ir
Spouse Birth Year: 1600
Number Pages: 1

Source Citation
Source number: 1123.000; Source type: Electronic Database; Number of Pages: 1; Submitter Code: RLR
Source Information
Yates Publishing. U.S. and International Marriage Records, 1560-1900 [database on-line]. Provo, UT, USA: Ancestry.com Operations Inc, 2004.
Original data: This unique collection of records was extracted from a variety of sources including family group sheets and electronic databases. Originally, the information was derived from an array of materials including pedigree charts, family history articles, querie.
------------------------------------

U.S. and Canada, Passenger and Immigration Lists Index, 1500s-1900s
Name: William Bryan
Arrival year: 1655
Arrival Place: Virginia
Primary Immigrant: Bryan, William
Source Publication Code: 1219.4
Source Bibliography: COLDHAM, PETER WILSON. The Complete Book of Emigrants: A Comprehensive Listing Compiled from English Public Records of Those Who Took Ship to the Americas for Political, Religious, and Economic Reasons; of Those Who Were Deported for Vagrancy, Roguery, or Non-Conformity; and of Those Who Were Sold to Labour in the New Colonies. Baltimore: Genealogical Publishing Co. 1607-1660. 1988. 600p.
Household Members:
Name Relation
William Bryan

Source Citation
Place: Virginia; Year: 1655; Page Number: 294
Source Information
Ancestry.com. U.S. and Canada, Passenger and Immigration Lists Index, 1500s-1900s [database on-line]. Provo, UT, USA: Ancestry.com Operations, Inc, 2010.
Original data: Filby, P. William, ed. Passenger and Immigration Lists Index, 1500s-1900s. Farmington Hills, MI, USA: Gale Research, 2012.
-----------------------------------------------

U.S. and Canada, Passenger and Immigration Lists Index, 1500s-1900s
Name: William Smith Bryan
Arrival year: 1650
Arrival Place: Virginia
Primary Immigrant: Bryan, William Smith
Family Members: family
Source Publication Code: 9448
Annotation: In the years from 1925 to 1942, Frederick A. Virkus edited seven volumes with the title, The Abridged Compendium of American Genealogy, published in Chicago by the Institute of American Genealogy. Each volume has a section in the main body of the work, co
Source Bibliography: VIRKUS, FREDERICK A., editor. Immigrant Ancestors: A List of 2,500 Immigrants to America before 1750. Baltimore: Genealogical Publishing Co., 1964. 75p. Repr. 1986.
Household Members:
Name Relation
William Smith Bryan

Source Citation
Place: Virginia; Year: 1650; Page Number: 16
Source Information
Ancestry.com. U.S. and Canada, Passenger and Immigration Lists Index, 1500s-1900s [database on-line]. Provo, UT, USA: Ancestry.com Operations, Inc, 2010.
Original data: Filby, P. William, ed. Passenger and Immigration Lists Index, 1500s-1900s. Farmington Hills, MI, USA: Gale Research, 2012.
----------------------------------------------------

U.S., Sons of the American Revolution Membership Applications, 1889-1970
Name: Wm Smith Bryan
[User-submitted-comment]
SAR Membership: 52386
Role: Ancestor
Application Date: 7 Aug 1933
Children: Frances Bryan

Source Citation
Volume: 262
Source Information
Ancestry.com. U.S., Sons of the American Revolution Membership Applications, 1889-1970 [database on-line]. Provo, UT, USA: Ancestry.com Operations, Inc., 2011.
Original data: Sons of the American Revolution Membership Applications, 1889-1970. Louisville, Kentucky: National Society of the Sons of the American Revolution. Microfilm, 508 rolls.
-----------------------------------------------------

Re Catherine Morgan: apparently later generations of the Bryan family had a habit of naming their sons Morgan, so there's some kind of association with the name. But there are many possible explanations besides the traditional legend. Do we know whether Bryan is a last name used in Wales? If so, then maybe the real people under the pile of legends are actually Welsh. Maybe an Irishman somewhere along the line did marry a Welsh girl - it's possible that they met in Virginia. Or maybe an Irishman was such good friends with a Welshman that he named his son after him.

We've already discussed the complete lack of evidence for any of these claims and their improbable nature. I see no point in discussing it further.

I will add one P.S. in the interest of historical accuracy. The family-written history at https://books.google.com/books?id=wZiSDwAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PT77&amp;lpg=... tells a glorious story of how Colonel William Smith Bryan rushed to the defense of Clonmel at the head of his troops, then tricked Oliver Cromwell into letting him off easy when the town had to surrender.

There really was a battle and siege at Clonmel, but other sources tell a different story of what happened there. There was an Irish army garrison of about 2,000 men stationed at Clonmel, commanded by Hugh Dubh O’Neill. There is no mention of any outside forces coming in to help, with the Prince of Ireland riding proudly at their head on a fine white horse. The real Irish military commander, O’Neill, put up a brilliant defense that inflicted unexpectedly severe damage on Cromwell’s forces. But the town couldn’t hold out much longer and had to surrender.

There are two different stories about what happened next. This is the version that looks most realistic: O’Neill surrendered along with everyone else and was imprisoned in the Tower of London. No one tricks Cromwell. O’Neill was eventually released thanks to the intervention of the Spanish Ambassador, but had to promise not to serve in campaigns against English forces. So he went to Spain and continued his military career there. This is the same version of the story that Geni shows in his profile: Aodh Dubh (Black Hugh) O'Neill

In version 2, O’Neill and his entire garrison slip away from Clonmel in the night, telling the townspeople to negotiate generous surrender terms from Cromwell before letting him know that the army is gone. The trick works, and after the surrender Cromwell is furious when he finds out that he doesn’t have any military prisoners, and the town was actually defenseless when the surrender was negotiated. But he doesn’t retaliate against the townspeople. Here are a couple of links for that version of the story:
https://www.secretireland.ie/blog/hugh-dubh-o-neill-the-irishman-wh...
https://neverfeltbetter.wordpress.com/2014/04/16/irelands-wars-clon...

The O’Neill clan claims descent from a 10th-century High King of Ireland. Hugh Dubh himself grew up in exile because his father had to flee Ireland in 1607 along with the more prominent members of the clan. When the English monarchy was restored, Hugh Dubh tried to get his lands and title back but failed according to Wikipedia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Dubh_O%27Neill

The Hugh Dubh O’Neill story and the William Smith Bryan story are obviously two slightly different versions of the same story. The sources for O’Neill don’t look overly impressive, and it’s not a good sign that the story has alternative endings. But at least he seems to have some independent documentation, and he’s the generally accepted hero of the story. Bryan has no documentation and seems to be accepted only by people who think they’re descended from him.

Caroline, I think you are just going to have to wait for the slow process of DNA results of Bryan descendants to reveal it's self.. In the meantime, trying to make ancestors not exist simply because you don't have paper records of the type you want is not enough. There are countless profiles on geni with legends and stories. So far, the DNA results match the stories so I think there is some validity there. Just be patient . It will come together in time.

But the DNA does NOT match the stories. I checked into it some more, and based on the spreadsheet at https://www.familytreedna.com/public/bryan/default.aspx?section=yre... it is not possible for Francis Bryan b. 1549 (line 282 of the spreadsheet) to be the grandfather of Sir Francis Bryan b. 1603 (line 273 of the spreadsheet).

Here are their R1b Haplogroups:
Francis Bryan b. 1549 U106/ Z2265/ BY30097/ Z18/ Z17/ Z372 ?S4037
Francis Bryan b. 1603 U106/ Z2265/ BY30097/ Z381

The critical point is the fourth set of numbers, where the elder Francis has Z18 and the younger one has Z381. The phylogenetic tree at https://www.eupedia.com/genetics/phylogenetic_trees_Y-DNA_haplogrou... shows that the Z18 and Z381 lines diverged from each other about 4,000 years ago. If these people actually existed as a family unit, then somebody's wife has some 'splainin to do.

So I merged James Bryant’s of Isle of Wight and that went OK, except we now have 3 William Bryant sons with different wives.
Few notes in profiles so I am helpless.

1) William Bryant & Patience Bryant

2) William Bryant, of Tabbs Creek & Elizabeth Bryant

3) James Bryant, Jr (II) & Sarah Bryant with an impossible photo attached

Thank you Erica Howton, I feel like "my" James Bryant has the right ancestors now, and my line of descent downstream from him looks like it hasn't changed. It looks like I have a new knight in the family tree on the upstream side lol. I'm afraid that I can't help you sort out the sons' wives.

I found some information on the historical Sir Francis Bryan that might be useful on the History of Parliament Trust website: https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1509-1558/member/b...

"If he [Sir Francis] made a will it has not been found and nothing is known of the disposition of his lands, most of which appear to have been held on lease. His son, who is mentioned as carrying a despatch to London in 1548 from the French admiral, was illegitimate."

That looks like a pretty official source. There's no mention of a legitimate heir, it looks like his vast real estate holdings have been exaggerated, and nobody knows what became of his property.

I tried to do some digging on his title and didn't find much. The Bryan family had an obscure baronetcy that they might have only held for a couple of generations, and there's no information on what happened to the title when Sir Francis died. It might have reverted to the crown.

The first Baron Bryan was Guy de Bryan 1319-1390 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guy_de_Bryan,_1st_Baron_Bryan
It's not clear whether Francis Bryan was his descendant. It says that Francis' grandfather assumed the arms of Guy de Bryan when he became a person of some importance, which makes it sound like the title was vacant at the time and the crown gave it to him in appreciation for services rendered: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Bryan_(Chief_Justice) It says that the Francis Bryan family is descended from Engelbert I, Seigneur de Brienne who died in 990, and Sir Guy was also associated with the de Brienne name. So they were probably related even if they weren't actually descended from each other.

Here's more info on the Bryan baronetcy: Sir Guy de Bryan the younger
"Sir Guy de Bryan was the son of Guy de Bryan, 1st and last Baron Bryan"
His son predeceased him and it looks like his grandsons didn't survive to adulthood, so there were no males in his line of descent to inherit the title.

Re: “His son, who is mentioned as carrying a despatch to London in 1548 from the French admiral, was illegitimate."

We found the source for that quote and in fact had it translated from French (I’ll try to dig up the translation, it’s on one of the Sir Francis discussions). My recollection is that the reference to a son as oblique. We even thought about a step son of Philippa’s (his first wife who apparently had no children by either marriage). And yes, indeed, the property was either on lease, reverted to the crown, or belonged to a wife.

This has kept me up at nights for years. The frustration!!! However, I can now demonstrate that a Bryan line links William Bryan to Sir Francis but it is a tortuous pathway. I stake this claim on one researchable fact: Sarah Brinker claimed to be a cousin of The Prince of Orange. Now if this is a true assertion then there is only one way that this could happen and that involves the Bryans being linked. It is not yet possible to confirm this with documentary evidence but they MUST be linked or the Sarah Brinker statement is a lie.

It looks to me like Sarah Brinker might be fictional; her Wikitree profile contains zero documentation for her existence, and instead has silly-looking claims about a member of the Bryan family returning to Ireland to reclaim estates that history suggests they never actually owned: https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Brinker-7 It makes her the wife of three different members of the Bryan(t) family. It does at least contain some information showing that someone did a shred of research, which is more than I can find anywhere else.

The profiles for her parents look confused, but it says they were born in Switzerland, with no mention of any connections to the House of Orange. The only source for her father is a FamilySearch tree tied to an individual who was born in 1726 (a century too late to be her father) Here's the tree, which doesn't go back to the right year and doesn't include anyone with the right name: https://www.familysearch.org/tree/pedigree/landscape/LM9Z-TQ7 And here's the individual that the Wikitree profile is linked to: https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/details/LM9Z-TQ7

Why would William of Orange make Francis Bryan III his standard bearer at the battle of the Boyne? William was king of England at this point. The Bryan family legend says that William Smith Bryan fought against the English at the siege of Clonmel and humiliated them. He was fighting against the forces of Cromwell not the king (because there wasn't one), but he was still rebelling against the English government. This tale isn't even slightly believable, but the choices here are that Francis III was either the son of a traitor from the English point of view, or he was the son of an absolute nobody.

What was Sarah doing in Denmark? The principality of Orange is in southern France, not too far from the Mediterranean Sea. It doesn't look like members of the ruling family were forced to flee to Denmark at any time. Political marriages seem rather unlikely, given the distance between Orange and Denmark. Orange did have some political turmoil during this time period (See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Orange ) but they don't seem important enough to make Denmark support them in spite of the large distance. If Sarah Brinker really was related to the Prince (or Princess) of Orange, then she seems too important to marry the descendant of a nobody who'd been driven out of Ireland.

None of this smells right, so I agree with Erica: we need to see some proof for the Sarah Brinker claims.

Her Geni profile gives her a title that she has no right to and some interesting, undocumented parents: Lady Sarah Elizabeth Bryan