William “Smith” Bryan - Do we have any evidence that William "Smith" Bryan actually existed?

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Millennium File
Name: William Smith Bryan
Gender: Male
Birth Date: 1600
Birth Place: Claire, Ireland
Death Date: 1667
Father: Sir Frances (Jr) Bryan
Mother: Ann Smith
Spouse: Catherine Morgan
Children: Francis Iii Bryan

Source Information
Heritage Consulting. Millennium File [database on-line]. Provo, UT, USA: Ancestry.com Operations Inc, 2003.
Original data: Heritage Consulting. The Millennium File. Salt Lake City, UT, USA: Heritage Consulting.
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U.S. and International Marriage Records, 1560-1900
Name: Catherine Morgan
Gender: Female
Birth Place: Ir
Spouse Name: William Smith Bryan
Spouse
Birth Place: Ir
Spouse Birth Year: 1600
Number Pages: 1

Source Citation
Source number: 1123.000; Source type: Electronic Database; Number of Pages: 1; Submitter Code: RLR
Source Information
Yates Publishing. U.S. and International Marriage Records, 1560-1900 [database on-line]. Provo, UT, USA: Ancestry.com Operations Inc, 2004.
Original data: This unique collection of records was extracted from a variety of sources including family group sheets and electronic databases. Originally, the information was derived from an array of materials including pedigree charts, family history articles, querie.
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U.S. and Canada, Passenger and Immigration Lists Index, 1500s-1900s
Name: William Bryan
Arrival year: 1655
Arrival Place: Virginia
Primary Immigrant: Bryan, William
Source Publication Code: 1219.4
Source Bibliography: COLDHAM, PETER WILSON. The Complete Book of Emigrants: A Comprehensive Listing Compiled from English Public Records of Those Who Took Ship to the Americas for Political, Religious, and Economic Reasons; of Those Who Were Deported for Vagrancy, Roguery, or Non-Conformity; and of Those Who Were Sold to Labour in the New Colonies. Baltimore: Genealogical Publishing Co. 1607-1660. 1988. 600p.
Household Members:
Name Relation
William Bryan

Source Citation
Place: Virginia; Year: 1655; Page Number: 294
Source Information
Ancestry.com. U.S. and Canada, Passenger and Immigration Lists Index, 1500s-1900s [database on-line]. Provo, UT, USA: Ancestry.com Operations, Inc, 2010.
Original data: Filby, P. William, ed. Passenger and Immigration Lists Index, 1500s-1900s. Farmington Hills, MI, USA: Gale Research, 2012.
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U.S. and Canada, Passenger and Immigration Lists Index, 1500s-1900s
Name: William Smith Bryan
Arrival year: 1650
Arrival Place: Virginia
Primary Immigrant: Bryan, William Smith
Family Members: family
Source Publication Code: 9448
Annotation: In the years from 1925 to 1942, Frederick A. Virkus edited seven volumes with the title, The Abridged Compendium of American Genealogy, published in Chicago by the Institute of American Genealogy. Each volume has a section in the main body of the work, co
Source Bibliography: VIRKUS, FREDERICK A., editor. Immigrant Ancestors: A List of 2,500 Immigrants to America before 1750. Baltimore: Genealogical Publishing Co., 1964. 75p. Repr. 1986.
Household Members:
Name Relation
William Smith Bryan

Source Citation
Place: Virginia; Year: 1650; Page Number: 16
Source Information
Ancestry.com. U.S. and Canada, Passenger and Immigration Lists Index, 1500s-1900s [database on-line]. Provo, UT, USA: Ancestry.com Operations, Inc, 2010.
Original data: Filby, P. William, ed. Passenger and Immigration Lists Index, 1500s-1900s. Farmington Hills, MI, USA: Gale Research, 2012.
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U.S., Sons of the American Revolution Membership Applications, 1889-1970
Name: Wm Smith Bryan
[User-submitted-comment]
SAR Membership: 52386
Role: Ancestor
Application Date: 7 Aug 1933
Children: Frances Bryan

Source Citation
Volume: 262
Source Information
Ancestry.com. U.S., Sons of the American Revolution Membership Applications, 1889-1970 [database on-line]. Provo, UT, USA: Ancestry.com Operations, Inc., 2011.
Original data: Sons of the American Revolution Membership Applications, 1889-1970. Louisville, Kentucky: National Society of the Sons of the American Revolution. Microfilm, 508 rolls.
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My ‘research’ also implicated William Smith Bryan as one of my lineal ancestor (8th great grandfather). I made a feeble attempt to find evidence about him without much success. But if one considers that if the narrative about him is accurate then his Irish contemporaries would consider him a descendant of Norman invaders who came over from England.

Again if the narrative were accurate he would be a grandson of Sir Francis Bryan who definitely was installed as Lord Justice of Ireland as an outsider. Sir Francis died suddenly, probably by poisoning possibly by his Irish wife, Countess of Ormand. Inheritance of the considerable lands in Ireland granted to him by the king and the lands of his wife would be powerful incentive to ‘adjust’ the historical record against the interests of any offspring of these English invaders.

I know that proper genealogy is based on paper documents and that makes good sense. But surely we know from our own contemporary experience that people in charge can be morally despicable and demonstrably dishonest. So I do not have complete faith in the paper record. As the saying goes “history is written by the victors”.

I have some hope that techniques of DNA analysis might shed more objective insights about how we are all inter-related. Especially as cost of complete sequencing approaches an impulse buying level. Remember that devices with the computing power of previous “super computers” are now routinely purchased by teenagers for entertainment purposes.

http://www.gabrielferrel.citymax.com/f/MagnaCharta.pdf

http://www.bmgen.com/document/pdf/Notable_Southern_Families_Vol_II.pdf
starting on page 30.

Genealogies of Kentucky Families from The Register of the Kentucky Historical Society, Vol. III, From the Filson Club History Quarterly, With Foreword by Nelson L. Dawson. Editor of the Filson Club History Quarterly, Baltimore, Genealogical Publishing Co., 1981.
From "The Bryan Lineage and Alliances", by Edward Bryan, from Vol. XX (1946), 37-40 Page 171-179.
Also, I was approached on Geni By David Bryan. This was the message. " I am a direct descendant of Morgan and Martha Strode Bryan through son Morgan Bryan Jr and wife Mary Forbis, their son John (married Eliz Frances Battle), then son John Bryan Jr (married Sarah Elizabeth Bucie/Busey). I am a co-author on two volumes
on Morgan and Martha Strode Bryan, Their Seven Sons and Two Daughters." I believe he may have some info that we have not found.

The problem here, is Who are the parents of William Smith Bryan?

Since the existence of Francis Bryan II has been 'called into question'..........

https://alistairgraham.com/FamilyTree/Bryan%20Family%20History.html

I have DNA matches with several cousins who also share the Bryan's as ancestors. In addition to Bryan, I mapped out Smyth as William Smith Bryan has Smyth ancestors. In that Smyth line, there is DNA evidence as to the haplogroup. Morgan Strode Bryan has been cut off from his family yet the DNA evidence of his descendant which also has the haplogroup matches Francis Bryan descendants. Not only that, my Morgan Strode Bryan cousin descendant also matches for the Smyth line of William Smith Bryans' Smith/Smythe ancestors. Finally, I have DNA matches for Brinker/Brinckerhoff but NOT Brunger. I think Brunger is wrong. I can share this with you if given some time so you can see it or you can find all the matches in the database. Search for: Bryan, Smyth, and Brinker < chromosomemappingofancientbloodlines.com >

We’ve had a couple of discussions trying to find any children, step children, illegitimate children, still born children ... anything at all ... for the Vicar of Hell.

Nothing.

See for example https://www.geni.com/discussions/146084?msg=1019259

The claim that the Countess of Ormand poisoned Sir Francis Bryan doesn't check out. Many sources don't even mention it, and it doesn't seem to have been seriously suspected at the time, even though this was a time when poisoning was suspected almost automatically when a prominent person died suddenly, and he did die suddenly. It's generally accepted that her first husband was poisoned, but she doesn't seem to be a prime suspect for that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Butler,_9th_Earl_of_Ormond It's likely that the rumor mill has transferred the poisoning of the first husband to the second husband.

The English were oppressing the Irish pretty seriously at the time, and it's entirely possible that there was an obscure member of the Bryan family who decided to emigrate to the new world to get away from it all. Once he got there, he may have created a fabulous new backstory for himself to impress his new neighbors, who would have been too cut off from the Old Country to know what was really going on there, or maybe his descendants embellished his story over time until it reached ridiculous proportions. But the story that's being told now doesn't check out and doesn't make any historical sense.

He's also not mentioned in websites on the history of Nansemond County and neither is the Bryan family, but they do mention other people whose claims to fame are a lot more modest. For example:
https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/en/Nansemond_County,_Virginia_Com...

http://genealogytrails.com/vir/nansemond/suffolk_parish.html

Nansemond County has suffered several losses of records during the years, including having their courthouse burned down by the British during the Revolution. But the knowledge of other prominent Nansemond families during the colonial period has been preserved.

There's a family grave with some Irish William Bryans in Salem, VA, and the time period is fairly close. It's pretty far away from Nansemond though, which is centered on the modern town of Suffolk. Salem is halfway across the state from there. https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/16202730/william-bryan

As for the identity of his parents, this link says his father is Francis Bryan (no "Sir") born in Munster around 1549: https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Bryan-73 It says his mother was Anne Smith, born in Munster around 1560: https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Smith-5430 This makes sense, and explains why he is called William "Smith" Bryan. The maiden name of the Countess of Ormond who married Sir Francis Bryan was Fitzgerald, and the last name of her first husband was Butler. The name Smith doesn't seem to occur anywhere in her immediate family tree.

The tombstone mentioned in a previous post indicates that there were some people named Bryan in Munster. But there's no reason to assume that they have any connection with the family of Sir Francis Bryan. He was an Englishman who apparently spent most of his life hanging around the English court. He was only married to the Countess of Ormond for a couple of years, and their only child died young. If he was an enterprising guy he could have fathered some bastards while he was in Ireland, but he couldn't have any legitimate descendants there.

Private User What you’ve written is pretty much my thinking on the Vicar of Hell.

The countess of Ormond apparently was fine by Elizabeth l. If there had really been anything to the poisoning idea, wouldn’t the Crown have seized on the opportunity to grab her estates?

Especially if she was a serial killer who was poisoning one husband after another lol. She might have gotten away with it the first time, but people definitely would have been suspicious when the second one croaked.

I'm clutching at straws trying to figure out a way that that a DNA-carrying member of the Bryan family could end up in the New World claiming to be a glamorous Irish rebel, besides bastardy. Here's one: Sir Francis lived in Ireland for the last two years of his life because he'd been given a political post there. Maybe he brought some poor relations along to do the actual work, and they were left high and dry when he suddenly died. So they hightailed it for the New World because it was a place where fortunes could be made, and strange legends grew up around them. It doesn't explain why they're not remembered as a prominent family in the area, but it does put them there physically. A more straightforward explanation would be that some Bryans went to the colonies from England, and the legends attached to them later.

I vote for your latter guess. We couldn’t find much on Sir Francis’ family (collateral). But he’s such a colorful character in history - eyepatch ! I would think his fame is not recent.

Whoops, I lost track of my time frame there. Sir Francis died in 1550, and William Smith Bryan allegedly showed up in the New World a hundred years later. So change my idle-speculation fantasy to this: the poor relations that he hypothetically brought to Ireland weren't left high and dry by his death, and liked it well enough in Ireland that they stayed there for two or three generations. But when Cromwell started tearing the place apart they decided it was time to leave.

Sir Francis didn't have any legitimate children who survived to adulthood, but reportedly had one bastard child who made it to age 30 and died in England: unknown Bryant So if any members of the Bryant family made it the New World, they were illegitimate and/or came from some other branch of the family.

I found a list of DNA haplotypes for males named Bryan or Bryant at
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/bryan/default.aspx?section=yre...

Sir Francis “Eyepatch” Bryan 1490-1550 is not on the list. This is not surprising - he has no known descendants so we'd have to dig him up to determine his haplotype.

Francis Bryan 1549-1640 who is the alleged father of William Smith Bryan. His parents are unknown: Francis Bryan, {possibly fictional}
His haplotype is R-M269, see line 282 of the chart on the DNA website

There’s a William Smith Bryan of Ireland on Line 13 who might be the wrong guy because there are no dates. His haplotype is E-M35 which is the wrong answer

“Sir” Francis Bryan 1630-1694 Francis Bryan The title is apparently bogus, and there’s no record of him or his alleged attempt to get back the estates that are mysteriously missing from Ireland’s land ownership record.
His haplotype is R-M269, see line 273

Morgan Bryant I 1621-1684 brother of “Sir” Francis is not identifiable on the list. There are some later Morgan Bryans on the list who have the right haplotype, and some who have the wrong haplotype. There’s also at least one Strode who has the wrong haplotype, see line 284. There are quite a few other people with various names who have the right haplotype.

John “Smith” Bryan alleged son of William Smith Bryan 1626-1687 is not on the list
James “Bryan” Bryant alleged son of John Smith Bryant 1656-1731
Haplotype R-FGC54211 WRONG ANSWER, see line 260.

The only thing that any of this proves is that there’s an identifiable family line that has been traced to 1549 and no earlier, just before the moment that it started to get interesting. They claim to be descendants of Sir Francis Eyepatch but there’s no proof that it’s actually true. They might be related to Sir Eyepatch or they might not. When people make a long-distance move to a place where no one knows them, they have a wonderful opportunity to upgrade their social status by rewriting their family history. Some of the claims fly in the face of common sense and the evidence, but we don’t know whether it was the first immigrants who started these stories or someone later on.

There is also at least one cuckoo in the nest. I looked at James “Bryan” Bryant because he’s supposed to be the link to these people in my line of descent. I don’t know if mom had a fling with the milkman or if he’s been associated with this family by mistake, but he’s not one of them. These people looked so phony that I didn’t want to be connected to them, so it's nice to find out that I’m not.

Well crap. I got all excited about the DNA thing, thinking maybe I could use it to pin down some of my other ancestors after I found the page on the Bryans at https://www.familytreedna.com/public/bryan/default.aspx?section=yre... I already made a post about that link, but I think it may have been swallowed by the internet. We'll see if it turns up. Long story short, some of the people in the Nansemond Bryants had the same R-M269 haplotype, others were missing, there is at least one person in the group who has the wrong type, and we have no idea what the haplotype for Sir Francis Eyepatch is so we still can't tie any of these people to him.

But it turns out that the R-M269 haplotype is so extremely common in western Europe that it's almost meaningless. It may tell you something when a guy has a different type, but R-M269 doesn't narrow your possible ancestry down very much. Here are the percentages of men who have this haplotype according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R-M269#Distribution

Wales 92%
Ireland 85% (95% in some areas)
England 78%
France is about 70-80% depending on region
Spain has a wider variation, from 55-87%
They don't say anything about Scotland.

There are subgroups within the haplotype that presumably narrow it down more. The link shows that some of the Nansemond Bryans had the R-M269 haplotype but they weren't in the same subgroup. I don't fully understand how to read Y-DNA results so I can't say for sure what this means. But it doesn't seem like a good sign.

Bryan , William Smith (@)
June 1579 - Munster, Claire, Ireland 01 Jun 1667 - Gloucester County, Virginia, United States of America
Bryan, William Smith
1600 - Claire, Ireland 31 Oct 1741 - Gloucester County, VA
Bryan , WILLIAM SMITH II (Parents-William Smith Bryan and Alice Needham)
1716 - Banbridge, Down, , Ireland Jul 02, 1806 - Salem, Botetourt, Virginia, United States
Bryan , William Smith
17 Mar 1785 - Bryan's Station, Clark, KY Paris, Bourbon, KY The Bryans used the names often. Sames with
Name Birth Death
Bryan, Francis
Mar 1670 - Ireland 1694 - Ireland
Bryan, Francis
Jun 1630 - County Clare, Munster Province, Ireland 01 Apr 1693 - Belfast, Antrim, Ireland
Bryan, Francis (Parent Joseph Bryan Jr-Susan Callaway)
25 Jun 1770 - Frederick, Ashe, Virginia, United States 10 Feb 1863 - Ash, Brunswick, North Carolina, United States
Bryan (@), Francis II Sir
11 Jun 1549 - Munster, Claire, Ireland 1 Jun 1640 - Gloucester, Hampshire, Virginia, USA
Bryan lV, Francis (Parent John Francis Bryan-Sarah Brinker)
1670 - Denmark 1763 - North Carolina. William Smith Bryan (@)
1579–1667
BIRTH JUNE 1579 • Munster, Claire, Ireland
DEATH 01 JUN 1667 • Gloucester County, Virginia, United States of America had multible childern that came to US. Spouse & Children
Catherine Ormond Morgan (@)
1603–1680

William Smith Bryan
1600–1741

John Bryan
1615–1680

Thomas Bryan
1619–1685

Morgan Bryan
1620–1693

David Bryan
1622–1685

Henry Bryan
1623–1689

Edward Bryan
1623–1685

Edward Bryan
1624–1685

Lydia Bryan
1625–1694

John Bryan
1626–1687

Edmund Bryan
1627–1690

James Bryan
1628–1693

Edit
Richard Thomas Bryan
1629–1655

John Francis Smith Bryan (@) III Sir Knight
1630–1694

If you have DNA with any of these lines it goes back to William Smith Bryan.

Bryans believed in large families and all these families had large families. There are multiple John's, William's, Francis's Morgans, Joseph, James, etc. History beyond the US and documentation prior to 1700 is hard to find. I will be following your progress in your research. Thanks

There is a project on Geni, O'Brien,O’Bryan, Brien Bryan Family. It contains a lot of info on the research they have done and gives you documentation sources that may help you in this research. Just a suggestion for possible sources.

This is what the above project has on the subject:
The data concerning the ancestry of Sir Francis Bryan is based on research done by The Society of Genealogists, London. Much of this material is also contained in "The Dictionary of National Biography" and "The Complete Peerage."

For the line showing the descent of Morgan Bryan from Sir Francis, the writer is indebted to the late Gordon M. Ash, Esq. of Frederick, MD, a Bryan descendant, and lately genealogist to the Society of Descendants of Knights of the Garter. It has also been published in Carter R. Bryan's, "The Bryan Family," Armstrong's "Notable Southern Families, " J. W. Shearer's, "The Shearer-Akers Family," and various articles on the ancestry of Morgan's brother, William.

Nathaniel Boone in War of 1812

Book Resource: Available at Kentucky Historical Society in Frankfort, Kentucky. Subject: Morgan Bryan (1671-1763), a Danish-born "Irish Immigrant": And Some of His Descendants and Antecedents.

In Search of a Bryan Tradition

Key Take Aways:

- Francis Bryan speaks of his son "his poor boy" in his dyeing wishes.

- Francis II is taken from his mother, Joan Duchess of Ormond, at a young age and raised in England. Taken to a life of sea faring under the likes of Sir Humphrey Gilbert, Sir Francis Drake, Sir Walter Raleigh, Capt. John Smith Original Jamestown Planter, 1st and 2nd Relief Voyages, employer: Edward Maria Wingfield.

- William Smith Bryan surrendered at the Siege of Clonmel. His son Francis III was present. The town surrenders to Cromwell's New Model Army.

- Francis Bryan III and Morgan Bryan both fought at the Battle of the Boyne.

- Siege of Limerick (Morgan saves Francis after he is injured by a saber thrust)

Military Command

Colonels, Captains, Soldiers, Militia,

Government Offices

https://alistairgraham.com/FamilyTree/Bryan%20Family%20History.html
Staes they used the following as resources :
From this point the various branches of the family may be traced in a number of historical and biographical works, among which may be mentioned: Armstrong: "Notable Southern Families", McKenzie: "Colonial Families of the USA", Cooper: "The Bryan Families of Fayette and adjoining Counties", Spraker: "The Boone Family".

It states Sir Francis Bryan was twice married, firstly, to Phillippa Montgomery, by whom he had Edmund Bryan, Esq., of Tor Bryan. By Lady Joan he had a son, Francis Bryan II. He was born in 1549, and held large estates in County Clare. He Married Ann, daughter of Sir William Smith.

I shouldn’t be so abrupt.

The link is to old American publications. But if you look into the records “at the time,” as we did, we find only one mention that Sir Francis had a single child, mentioned supposedly on his death bed, and no other record. Given the timing this child would have either illegitimate or Joan’s. If Joan’s, the child, if surviving, would have been heir to estates in both England and Ireland. There is no indication of any such inheritance, and the record is a hearsay one: “this is what Sir Francis said ...”.

The information is in this profile:

Francis Bryan, (died young)

Sir Francis’ first wife was Philippa Spice, not Philippa Montgomery. We couldn’t find that she had any children, & she was not the mother of Edmund of Tor Bryan.

Phillipa Bryan

There’s a Biography of Sir Francis here:

http://knightsdebryan.freeservers.com/vicar/sfb2.htm

“Although there survives evidence of discord between them leading ultimately to separation, Bryan and Phillippa remained together for over twenty years. No children, however, came from this marriage ...”

Thank you Teresa (Smith) Lb9182918. But there are some problems with your timeline.

Bryan , William Smith (@)
June 1579 - Munster, Claire, Ireland 01 Jun 1667 - Gloucester County, Virginia, United States of America
The death date is right but the birthdate is off by 20 years. With this birthdate, he would have been 71 years old when he led the insurrection that history has failed to record, and for which he wasn't seriously punished. It's not impossible, but it doesn't make the story any more convincing.

Bryan, William Smith
1600 - Claire, Ireland 31 Oct 1741 - Gloucester County, VA
The birthdate is right, but I find it hard to believe that he lived to the age of 141. If the correct death year is 1641, then he died too soon to have come over in 1650.

Bryan , WILLIAM SMITH II (Parents-William Smith Bryan and Alice Needham)
1716 - Banbridge, Down, , Ireland Jul 02, 1806 - Salem, Botetourt, Virginia, United States
Doesn't fit the timeline for either of the WSBs above. It isn't claimed that WSB ever returned to Ireland, but this guy was born there. The first WSB above died in 1667. The second one would have been 116 years old when this guy was born.

I found an explanation of Y-DNA results at https://www.familytreedna.com/learn/test-types/y-chromosome-dna-y-d...

Summary: there are several different levels of testing: Y-DNA 12, 25, 37, 67, and 111. The 12 and 25 tests are only good for ruling out relationships. The remaining levels confirm a family relationship with increasing levels of confidence.

The DNA results for the Bryans are at https://www.familytreedna.com/public/bryan/default.aspx?section=yre... It defaults to the DNA-12 results, but there's a dropdown box where you can look at higher confidence levels.

The Bryans that have the same general haplogroup R-M269 are:

Francis Bryan 1549-1640 line 282 of the Y-DNA12 chart
His subgroup is R1b Haplogroup - U106 / Z2265 / BY30097 / Z381
and
“Sir” Francis Bryan 1630-1694 line 273 of the Y-DNA12 chart
His subgroup is R1b Haplogroup - U106 / Z2265 / BY30097 / Z18 / Z17 / Z372 / S4037

Based on the subgroups alone, it doesn't look to me like they match each other, let alone anyone else. They diverge at the third set of numbers, where "No SIr" Francis has Z381 and "Sir" Francis has Z18. "Sir" has a string of other numbers too that "No Sir" doesn't have.

They both appear on the DNA25 chart, which isn't worth talking about. "No SIr" is line 260 on the Y-DNA37 chart and line 163 on the Y-DNA67 chart.

"Sir" is line 251 on the Y-DNA37 chart. He does not appear on the Y-DNA67 chart, and neither one of them appears on the DNA111 chart. So it looks like some family connections between the descendants of each one have been established with a low to medium confidence level. But they don't particularly look related to each other.