Harald I "Fairhair", king of Norway - Why does my tree break when it comes to Harald's daughter Ingebjørg?

Harald's so old he probably had a Nokia! ;)

I wish that old Harald had used that Nokia to take a picture so that we could positively identify: "?? ??, (Ingebjørg's mother)" and then I might at long last know who is my 29th Great Grandmother: https://www.geni.com/people/Ingebjørg-s-mother/6000000010442614110

private
I know we are all joking but just to bring us back on topic a bit, if Harald took a selfie it would be a primary source to determine who his wife was but it would not, by itself, prove who your 29th Great Grandmother was. That would need 30 more photos to create a verified line.

My Nokia does not take photos its so old. But on topic, even photos are o real proof. DNA is the answer, I WISH they would start testing old graves and post on gedmatch. Especially in un marked war graves, what about the un named soldier?

Richard III was tested was he not? Were the results posted for matching?

DNA is a tricky one. Many of these "legends" who had many children are ancestor to us many different ways, especially who still live here and we have only 5 million people living in the country, but still, DNA wont verify the paths.

Also there has been "kings" and leaders who has been not able to have children so the fathers are "some stable boys".

Also because of how DNA is passed on, it is possible for even two siblings to have big differences in their ancestry at the DNA level. it is definitely possible for two siblings to get pretty different ancestry results from a DNA test. Even when they share the same parents. Other sibling can show the connection and other wont..so it is not simple either.

But yes, it would be cool anyway to see Richard III in gedmatch, as also others who would still have suitable bone material to take DNA from. I think Ramses II is also quite a mystery with having "european" hablotype with redhair. Sadly any kind of politics get involved to testings, that have happened in my country too...but that is another story.

@Remi
When I read what you are referring to in your post that is written by Bjørn Myhre from 2015, I see that he does what I refer to in my previous post. Sometimes he refers to Snorre and accepts what hewrites on other occasions he does not, so he cites what others have made up their minds about and eventually he writes his own perception of things.
This is no form of proof of the truth, but it is a confirmation of what I say in my post earlier, that is, everyone makes up their mind and makes it a truth. The evidence does not appear as always, your denial of what I am writing about Halvdan Svarte and Harald Faihair will bring you no evidence but just an acceptance of what others are supposed to be right about without evidence, just their (and others) opinions and assumptions. I therefore maintain what I say and think based on what will be your proof that it confirms my statements also abou somet the curators' work and opinions.

Remi Trygve Pedersen I seem to have more of the Danish/Prussian dna and my brother has more the Channel Islands and African. BUT, we are proven both from the same parents, and that means if we made a "super kit" of both, will still be correct.

I am going to try that and see what matches we get to it.

Alex Moes don't be rude. I just bought myself a brand new Nokia 9 in April. Love it. :-)

Tor Bjarne Olsen ok let's examine what primary sources or evidence we have for Harald Fairhair. We have 2 Kvæði that is about him that is considered contemporary and I'm mentioning them here: https://www.geni.com/discussions/194742?msg=1290136 but everything else is written a long time later, including what Snorre and the other saga writers wrote, because they were writing their sagas 300-400 years after Harald lived.

So there are only 2 sources existing today that we can trust as being contemporary, none of them are mentioning any family, only Harald's deeds.

So, I agree with yout statement, ".... everyone makes up their mind and makes it a truth." But that also include the saga writers writing a century before Snorre, Snorre himself and all writers/historians after that period.

There will never be any primary evidence of a descendancy after Harald Fairhair and that is also why the historians and genealogists are saying that it is impossible to prove that you're a descendant of Harald.

Tor Bjarne Olsen if you want to dispute what most historians agree upon during the last 30 years, you have to discuss it with them, not me. I'm just showing what their conclusion is. Yes, not all historians agree with this view, but the majority does. If you want to engage them you need to ask your questions in the right forums where the medeival historians are active. I'm not able to help you any further, since I'm only the messenger repeating what they have concluded.

Private User sounds like a common hit in the autosomal dna test. Siblings may have very different inherited dna segments from their close ancestors, so these kind of differences should not be a surprise.

Remi Pederson, a curator who pokes fun at geni users and responds condescendingly to them, while he threatens to cut lines from history, lol, he's a computer toughguy.

Private User keeping to the standard of my condescending respons and excuse me for saying: My name is not Remi Pederson, but Remi Pedersen. But maybe you changed the spelling of my name for fun or just being patronizingly.

What you should know, though, when talking about Norwegian vikings, is what the Norwegians historians of today are saying about this. When you know what the medeival viking historians are saying about these matters, then we can have fruitful discussion, instead of just unfound allegations.

There's nothing to converse about, it was a statement about your superiority complex. No one cares about your ideas, just follow history, it's written already, long ago

Private User

"What about the unknown soldier?"

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-26690387
https://news.sky.com/story/war-detectives-how-one-soldier-was-found....

Private User the point is that histories written long ago are full of inaccuracies and inconsistencies and sometimes propaganda or plain wishful thinking. So adding profiles to Geni based on "old writings" is fine but you need to be aware that the curators working on the ancient and medieval portions of Geni are striving for accuracy and an important feature of this work is the scholarly understanding of modern historians who spend their entire careers studying these topics, not just an evening with Google or a weekend with a book at their local library.

If you do not find Remi's tone appropriate that is fine but three points are important to bear in mind; (a) Remi has a life outside of Geni; (b) Remi's English while extremely good is not his native language; (c) there is a constant stream of new users to Geni who rather than reading any of the millions of words on Geni about the topics involved instead choose to attack curators for their efforts or demand that their own interpretations take precedence. Having this same debate over and over again slowly but surely drives curators away from this part of the Geni site but the users who's behaviour cause this never step up to fill the gap.

Remi Trygve Pedersen, thank you again for all the work you have put into this portion of the tree. I hope nothing in my previous post contradicts your opinions on the subject at hand.

I liked what you wrote, Alex. I meet this attitude that Robert is showing a lot, most in private messages, I tell them all the same thing about what the majority of the modern Nordic historians have found out and have come to a concensus about.

I can understand that a lot of Geni users aren't up to speed about what the Nordic historians have written about the early viking period during the last 30 years, since most of it is published in Nordic historical journals. I wish tough that they could listen to people that have infact read them.

What I don't fancy, though, are all the emotional statements many of them have. I know a lot of people would love to have Harald I "Fairhair", king of Norway as their ancestor, and when told that their dream are not possible to prove, so it should be removed, they react with animosity. And that is to bad.

I look forward to when family history researchers (genealogists) stop add whishful thinking and stick to what the facts are saying. Probably in a few hundred years.......

Harald I Fairhair is my 33rd great grandfather.

You
→ James Marshal Gifford-Nelson
your father → Betty Jane Gifford-Nelson
his mother → Ralph Norman Olsen, Sr.
her father → Helga Olava Olsen
his mother → Nels Nettum Johnson
her father → Gertrude Gulliksdatter Helle
his mother → Sigrid "Sigri" Thomasdatter (Tomason) Torstad
her mother → Gjertrud Pedersdatter Torstad
her mother → Peder Endresen Kattevøl
her father → Gjertrud Trondsdotter Kattevøl
his mother → Trond Jonson Kattevøl
her father → Jon Trondson Kattevold
his father → Trond Jonson Kattevol
his father → Ragnhild Knutsdatter Belsheim
his mother → Gudrid Nilsdtr. Semelenge
her mother → Nils Jensson Simling
her father → Jens Andersson Simling
his father → Gudrid Fartegnsdotter Semeleng, til Simling
his mother → Fartegn Filippusson Semeleng, på Semeleng
her father → Filippus Fartegnsson Losna
his father → Fartegn d.e. Filippusson Losna, I
his father → Ingeborg Erlandsdatter Losna
his mother → Holmfrid Erlingsdatter Reve / Losna
her mother → Margreta Erlingsdotter Bjarkøy
her mother → Erling Ivarson til Bjarkøy
her father → Lendmann Ivar Bjarnesson Bjarkøy
his father → Ragna Erlingsdatter
his mother → Erling d.e. Vidkunson, of Bjarkøy
her father → Vidkun Jonsson, av Bjarkøy
his father → Jon Arnesson Giske
his father → Gjertrud Erlingsdatter
his mother → Astrid Tryggvesdatter
her mother → Tryggve Olavsson, Konge av Viken
her father → Olav «Geirstad» Digerbein Haraldsson, king of Vestfold and Vingulmark
his father → Harald I "Fairhair", king of Norway
his father

Remi Trygve Pedersen

When you mention modern Norwegian historians and genealogists I assume you are referring to Tore Vererust, Jo Rune Ugulen and Lars Løberg. What would they or you have to say about the above line. The line would seem to be accurate based on Geni.com. However when I go to the profiles for people in the list such as Holmfrid Erlingsdatter Reve / Losna or Olav «Geirstad» Digerbein Haraldsson, king of Vestfold and Vingulmark the About section of the persons profile seems to cast doubt about validity of the parents listed in the profile.

A little discussion of the line above might lead me to a little better understanding on how to use these ancestral lines.

Remi Trygve Pederson , I could care less if I'm actually related to someone from a thousand years ago. What I did see was someone who got on this site and was excited about being related to him, through the site you're a curator at. He learned of this supposed relationship through HERE. YOU then replied, don't worry about it, it's B.S. anyways and we're gonna scrap it. You're the one with an attitude towards geni users.
Nailed that superiority complex for sure.

Lo dice GENI.
Harald I "Fairhair", king of Norway is your 32nd great grandfather.
You Juan Carlos.
→ Juan Iges Blom
your father → Carmen Cristina Madsen
his mother → Ana Hilda Mathiasen
her mother → Lars Mathiasen
her father → Mathias Larsen
his father → Sophie Margrete Mathiasdatter
his mother → Karen Jensdatter
her mother → Kirstine Margrete Christiansdatter
her mother → Christian Jeppesen Bruun
her father → Karen Nielsdatter Bruun
his mother → Niels Frandsen Bruun
her father → Johanne Andersdatter Grøn
his mother → Anders Eriksen Grøn, til Tamdrup Bisgaard
her father → Erik Jensen Grøn, til Voergaard
his father → Maren Andersdatter Bjørn, af Voergaard
his mother → Anne Muus af Stenalt
her mother → Laurens Jensen Muus
her father → Mette Strangesdatter Bild
his mother → Mette Olufsdatter Glob
her mother → Oluf Mogensen Glob
her father → Mogens Anderson Glob (Due)
his father → Korsridder Anders Nielsen Due, til Tubetorp
his father → Niels Alexandersen Falster
his father → Margrete Valdemarsdatter, Prinsesse af Danmark
his mother → Valdemar the Great, King of Denmark
her father → Ingeborg of Kiev
his mother → Princess Christina Ingesdotter of Sweden
her mother → Inge the Elder, king of Sweden
her father → Kong Stenkil Ragnvaldsson av Sverige
his father → Dronning Astrid Njaalsdotter, of Sandnes
his mother → Njaal Finnsson, af Sandnes
her father → Gunhild Halvdansdatter Skjalge
his mother → Ingebjørg Haraldsdotter
her mother → Harald I "Fairhair", king of Norway
her father
¿Og hvis det var sant?
¿And if it were true?
¿Y si fuera verdad?

Leon Hagelee, no I'm not referring to Tore, Jo Rune or Lars. Tore and Lars haven't written anything about viking kings, and Jo Rune has written some about the period but nothing about the kings specifically.

The medeival viking historians and other scholars I'm referring to are among others Claus Krag, Torgrim Titlestad, Olafia Einarsdottir and Bjørn Myhre that sums most of this up in his 230 page article called "Before Viken became Norway", an article published in Norwegian in 2015 where chapters 13 and 14 gives a good picture of what the modern historians view is of today. For those of you reading Norwegian or being knowledgeable about how to translate a pdf to another language, you can download/view the article of Bjørn Myhre here. It is very interesting reading: https://www.vfk.no/globalassets/vfk/dokumenter/kultur/kulturarv/lit...

Leon Hagelee

About the line above.
This area need more research, to establish the correctness of the relationships:
her father → Jon Trondson Kattevold
his father → Trond Jonson Kattevol
his father → Ragnhild Knutsdatter Belsheim
his mother → Gudrid Nilsdtr. Semelenge

Fartegn Filippusson Semeleng is not a son of Filippus Fartegnsson Losna according to the curatornotice and the text in the bio.

There are no good sources confirming that Holmfrid Erlingsdatter Losna is the daughter of Riksråd Erling Amundsson Hildugard nor is there any good sources confirming that the wife of Erling Amundsson was Margreta Erlingsdatter Bjarkøy according to Jo Rune Ugulen.

There are doubts about the realtionship between Astrid Trygvesdatter and Kong af Viken Tryggve Olavsson since there are doubts about Tryggve being the father of Olav I Tryggvason, King of Norway. And that is where this line's trustworthyness stops. Everything above Olav and Astrid is considered fictional by the modern medeival viking historians because they think that Snorre wanted to link Olav back to Harald Haarfagre, but there are no good sources confirming such a link.

Remi Trygve Pedersen, Thank you for the reply. I will slowly work my way through the article and will likely learn a lot. My comments were on Kings to be sure but also on the lesser know descendants. I do not mean to pick on Debra Jean Gifford-Nelson-Gunter-Carroll as all of probably have ancestral lines with questionable profiles. She was kind enough to post her line and thus made it fairly simple to pull out her ancestors for discussion.

For example one of the people on her list is Holmfrid Erlingsdatter Reve / Losna. On her profile are these comments.

"Hun var muligens datter av Erling Åmundsson, moren er ukjent."

The source of the above statement is not listed but next Jo Rune Ugulen is quoted

Holmfrid Erlingsdotter er ofte rekna som dotter av stormannen Erling Åmundeson i Hildugard, som tilsynelatande også må ha ått jord i Sogn. Men eg er skeptisk til at dette kan vera rett. Vedrørande dette, sjå kap.

So not only does the profile list her mother as unknown but a well-known Norwegian genealogist also cast doubt on he father.

Maybe I expect too much in the way of certainty on the families from medieval Norway.

Private User

her mother → Oluf Mogensen Glob
This parents of this person are unknown. He was only known as Oluf Glob, as far as we know.

her father → Mogens Anderson Glob (Due)
The parents of this person are unknown. He was not called Anderson.

his father → Korsridder Anders Nielsen Due, til Tubetorp
This person is a conflation of two different people. The ancestor of the Due family, was not know as "Nielsen"; while Anders Nielsen, the son of, Niels Alexandersen Falster, did not have any descendants (If you read Danish, see Danmarks Adels Aarbog, 2009-11, p. 573 & 599).

his father → Niels Alexandersen Falster
The mother of this person is not kown. Valdemar the Great is said to have a daughter Margrethe, but she was a nun and did not have any children.

her father → Kong Stenkil Ragnvaldsson av Sverige
his father → Dronning Astrid Njaalsdotter, of Sandnes
his mother → Njaal Finnsson, af Sandnes
her father → Gunhild Halvdansdatter Skjalge
his mother → Ingebjørg Haraldsdotter
her mother → Harald I "Fairhair", king of Norway

In order to construct the line between Harald and Stenkil, you need to use a combination of two thirteenth-century sagas (Heimskringla and Hervarar saga ok Heiðreks) the information of which on family relationships in the ninth-century - four hundred years earlier - are generally considered to be inaccurate, mistaken, or fictional.

Private User

her father → Johanne Andersdatter Grøn

I haven't been able to identify a primary source that confirms this person's existence. She doesn't seem to be mentioned by DAA 1895.

Private User good job.

Could you make the profiles and links on Geni correct according to your findings which would make the World Family Tree more correct.

Remi Trygve Pedersen I'd love to! But the Geni interface rarely allows non-curators to remove ancestors, regardless of how fictitious they are. I always get the same message, that this action will split the tree and is therefore not allowed.

As it is much easier for non-curators to add ancestors it is not strange that the page is seemingly flooded with strange conjectures and people who never existed.

Private User Send de du vil slette linken til men som du ikke får lov til, til meg, så skal jeg slette linken for deg, deretter kan du fortsette med arbeidet ditt.