Harald I "Fairhair", king of Norway - Why does my tree break when it comes to Harald's daughter Ingebjørg?

Cousin Hanne,

You wrote that so beautifully about mathematics. Also,

* Thank you for information on Niels Henrik Abel, who is my 7th cousin four times removed. Niels Henrik Abel

* I am cousin of Tycho Brahe, in several ways, an astronomer and mathematician who famously lost his nose in a mathematical debate (drunken quarrel)! Tycho was "the first competent mind in modern astronomy to feel ardently the passion for exact empirical facts."
Tycho Brahe

* Harald I "Fairhair", king of Norway is my 29th great grandfather.

Hugs from Sunny California

I just leave this here... :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fm0hOex4psA

KR Arsi

if you have the noble line as I have, you are related in one way or Another. bye

Hello again, Åsa 21st cousin once removed!

Previously we had discussed that you and I are perhaps twice related through Magnus Barefoot, King of Norway (my 24th great grandfather and also your relation). Magnus Barefoot, King of Norway is Harald I "Fairhair", king of Norway's fourth great grandson.

There's a new feature on Genic.com to see other paths of relationship.

Cheers!

What I find fascinating about geni.com is use of selected reasoning among the users. We are all related to "Harald I "Fairhair", king of Norway yada, yada, yada but I'm not related to President Donald J. Trump!. That's the epitomy of selective reasoning. Omitting certain facts, such as whether you are related up or down the chain. I'm related down the chain directly to "Harald I "Fairhair", king of Norway and that's the reason perhaps you are also looking at the profile. Is everyone related up the chain to Adam and Eve? Sure, but that's not as interesting.

Another selective reasoning among the geni users comes up with pedigree of famous people. This is a forum to discuss "Harald I "Fairhair", king of Norway" and the topic of Donald J. Trump's relation came up. Some curators of Geni.com are digging in their heals to pit one genealogist (their favorite Gary Boyd Roberts) against an acclaimed Icelandic genealogist Oddur F. Helgason. One says Donald J. Trump is not related to "Harald I "Fairhair", king of Norway and the other says that he is. Both are just opinions! It seems the relationship in question is "King James IV of Scotland."One genealogist (Roberts) says Trump is not related while the other genealogist (Helgason) says that he is. But wait, I thought we were all related!?! No, again this is selective reasoning.

My opinion is that we are NOT all related genetically, but we're more of a mesh with some interwoven connections. On geni.com many of us are interested in our direct ancestors up the chain. When we look at "Harald I "Fairhair", king of Norway or Charlegmagne, for example, we must look up the chain to find the connection. I can look up the chain to find a direct connection to each.

And so I proclaim that not everyone is related UP THE CHAIN to Charlemagne. He had 18 children which is a nice brood, but this doesn't mean everyone in the world can trace the tree UP to him! And the same is true of "Harald I "Fairhair", king of Norway.
Yes, DOWN THE CHAIN from Adam and Eve, you may be related.

In conclusion I'd like to say that humans typically married within socioeconomic groups, within small geographical areas, within shared languages. Nobles had a much wider array of geographical areas than most. The wild card, as I have mentioned before are mistresses, yet these mistresses also shared a similar socioeconomic group, within a small geographical area, within a shared language. As well, pomp and circumstance controlled genetics as it often was forbidden to marry certain people.

Go ahead and call me arrogant, but I'm just pointing out the nuances of logic. Nobody "nose" the troubles I've seen around here, but I continue to enjoy the entertainment. My cousin Tycho lost his nose in a mathematical battle, but nobody knows the other guy who took his nose! Think of that. He may have lost his nose but not his wit ~ he earned his standing in life not because of his social class but because of his intellect, but then again his wealthy family supported. Fame matters a bit in genealogy. It's much more interesting. The stories are more vibrant and well documented in a noble's life than a peasant's life.

Soy un Ciudadano común en este Universo que habita este planeta Tierra en América del Sur en la República Argentina, nací aquí por muchos motivos algunos conocidos otros no, sé que primero fui un Espermatozoide, tarde aproximadamente 72 días en madurar y su capacidad fertilizadora dura algunas semanas una parte es la que contiene los 23 cromosomas con toda la información genética necesaria para crear un nuevo ser humano en cuanto logre fecundar un óvulo femenino. https://www.lifeder.com/espermatozoides-partes-funciones/
Para ello mi primera batalla fue contra millones de Espermatozoides este primer proceso también lo vivieron todos mis antepasados.
Que quiero decir tuve dos padres Argentinos hijos de cuatro padres de cuatro países distintos con distintas Religiones y culturas diferentes se que esa Información Genética se transmitimos a nuestros hijos y ellos a mis nietos
Interesante debate .

#1: A wise man recently said to me (exact words): "You should not belive, you should know. The Denmark Church Records for for example her marriage clearly states that it is Christella Frederikke Lovise Bang." (Bjørn Petter Brox, that was you about 9 hours ago.)

Applying the same logic: YOU SHOULD KNOW whether a Norse Mythology link is a good source. Is it? A Norse mythology website is proof!? http://lind.no/nor/

#2: There's no proof that "?? ??, (Ingebjørg's mother)" existed. Is there? I've proposed we remove "?? ??, (Ingebjørg's mother)" because you SHOULD KNOW a good source for the profile and not just believe it is accurate.

#3: Removing "?? ??, (Ingebjørg's mother)" does not affect the profile of "Ingebjørg Haraldsdotter," since her father is still connected to her.

#4: FURTHER REASON TO CLIP "?? ??, (Ingebjørg's mother)"
Birthdate for ?? ??, (Ingebjørg's mother) is 810 and 864?

* Husband Harald I "Fairhair", king of Norway / Konge Harald Halfdansson was born circa 850. I think it would be unusual for the female to be 40 years senior to her husband. This is highly improbable.

* Daughter Ingebjørg Haraldsdotter was born circa 865? It would be impossible for her to give birth at one year of age.

CONCLUSION: "?? ??, (Ingebjørg's mother)" appears fabricated. We must "know" and not believe her to be the mother.

Disconnect/clip the relationship. https://www.geni.com/people/Ingebjørg-s-mother/6000000010442614110

~M. Foss N.

P.S. "Harald I "Fairhair", king of Norway was such a stud! Geni presently lists 7 wives and 1 partner, but the book, Heimskringla: History of the Kings of Norway (Paperback)
by Snorri Sturluson, says there are a dozen.
#1: ?? ?? birth estimated between 810 and 864, died ?
#2 :Åsa Håkonsdatter; circa 860, died circa 905
#3: Gyda Eriksdatter; circa 852, died 932
#4: Queen Ragnhild Eiriksdotter; circa 870, died circa 897 MENTIONED* and it is told that after he married Ragnild he let go of 11 wives.
#5: Svanhild Eysteinsdotter; before circa 850, died after 892 MENTIONED*
#6: Snøfrid Svåsesdotter, circa 860 died 932 MENTIONED*
#7 Åshild Ringsdotter , between 855 and 869, died 913 MENTIONED*

*Heimskringla: History of the Kings of Norway (Paperback)

Partner
Tora <<Mostaff>> Mosterstong 894- died after 925

What is the source data for the birthdate range?
Birthdate for ?? ??, (Ingebjørg's mother) is 810 and 864?
* If born in 810.... Husband Harald I "Fairhair", king of Norway / Konge Harald Halfdansson was born circa 850. I think it would be unusual for the female to be 40 years senior to her husband. This is highly improbable.
* If born in 864....Daughter Ingebjørg Haraldsdotter was born circa 865? It would be impossible for ?? ??, (Ingebjørg's mother) - ?? ?? to give birth to Ingebjørg Haraldsdotter at one year of age.

https://www.geni.com/people/Ingebjørg-Haraldsdotter/600000001044308...

private there are no sources for her date of birth, and the fact that you see anything at all, the range 810 - 864 depends on the Genis software, it creates an estimation, thus, nothing to bother none of us with.

If we at the other hand, belive that the daughter Ingebjørg was born around 865, then we can think that the mother was at least 14-15 years old, (maximum ca. 50 years old), that would create a different range for her mother, 815 - 850, but assuming Harald was born around 850, it would then be more correct to enter, born before 850 on that mother, but, the dates are anyway just estimations, Ingebjørg could in fact have been born between 865 - 873, we have a range that allows for adding 8 year to her, this would affect the mothers estimated range as well, so that she might have been born after 850.

It is anyway, better to not enter any dates at all in this case.

For what it’s worth (not a lot) unless we have some data to do proper between calculations, better to let “the system” estimate the range. On the other hand location entry is very helpful & “the system” does that poorly, especially for historic locations.

Let's review the facts on
?? ??, (Ingebjørg's mother) (Wife of Harald I “Fair hair” King of Norway
https://www.geni.com/people/Ingebjørg-s-mother/6000000010442614110
#1: No name.
#2: No source for date of birth. Geni estimates birth between 810 and 864.
*If 810 is her birthdate, "Fairhair" husband is 40 years younger.
*If 850 is her birthdate, same age as husband, she gives birth at 14 (plausible)
*If 864 is her birthday, "Ingebjørg" daughter was born when she was 1 (Impossible)
#3: No death date.
#4: No marriage date.
#5: Source: Mythology Web site, which appears to be transcribed incorrectly! If you will look at the source you will see that ?? is actually the daughter!
http://lind.no/nor/index.asp?lang=gb&amp;emne=asatru&amp;person=Ing...
I now will present you with a HUGE merge opportunity (six profiles)…

You will then see that ?? ??, (Ingebjørg's mother) = Åshild Ringsdotter

I propose we merge these six profiles

#1: ?? ??, (Ingebjørg's mother) (Wife of Harald I “Fair hair” King of Norway)
For https://www.geni.com/people/Ingebjørg-s-mother/6000000010442614110

Gender:
Female
Birth:
estimated between 810 and 864
Immediate Family:
Wife of Harald I "Fairhair", king of Norway
Mother of Ingebjørg Haraldsdotter
Added by:
Norma Brandsberg on May 21, 2008
Managed by:
Bjørn P. Brox and 4 others
Curated by:
Bjørn P. Brox

NOTE: this profile should not be the mother!
It should be reassigned as the daughter of Harald I “Fair hair” King of Norway
The husband is Halvdan jarls

#2: Ingebjørg Haraldsdotter (wife of Halvdan jarls)
https://www.geni.com/people/Ingebjørg-Haraldsdotter/600000001044308...
Ingebjørg Haraldsdotter MP
Norwegian: Ingebjørg Haraldsdotter, Halvdan jarls hustru
Gender: Female
Birth: circa 865
Lade, Trondheim, Trondheim, Sør-Trøndelag, Norway
Death: 920 (51-59) Norway
Place of Burial: Norway
Immediate Family:
Daughter of Harald I "Fairhair", king of Norway and ?? ??
Wife of Halvdan Jarl
Mother of Gunhild Halvdansdatter
Half sister of Guttorm Haraldsson; Halvdan Haraldsson; Halftan Haraldsson «the White» Kvite; Sigfrod Haraldsson; Aalov Haraldsdatter and 17 others
Added by:
Sherry Klein on March 3, 2007
Managed by:
Palle Christensen and 69 others
Curated by:
Bjørn P. Brox

#3: Ingebjørg Haraldsdotter (wife of Halvdan Jarl, Finnmarksjarl)
https://www.geni.com/people/Ingebjørg-Haraldsdotter/600000008406887...
Ingebjørg Haraldsdotter
Gender: Female
Birth: circa 865
Lade, Trondheim, Sør-Trøndelag, Norway
Death: circa 920 (47-63) Norway
Immediate Family:
Wife of Halvdan Jarl, Finnmarksjarl
Mother of Gunhild (Gunnhildur) Halvdansdatter
Added by: Niels Jørgen Hansen on November 18, 2018
Managed by: Niels Jørgen Hansen

#4” Ingegjerd Haraldsdotter (Wife of Halvdan Jarl)
Ingegjerd Haraldsdotter
Ingegjerd Haraldsdotter MP
Norwegian: Ingegjerd Haraldsdatter
Gender: Female
Birth: 870 Norge
Death:9 20 (50) Norge
Immediate Family:
Daughter of Harald I "Fairhair", king of Norway and Åshild Ringsdotter
Wife of Halvdan Jarl
Sister of Ring Haraldsson; Dag Haraldsson and Gudrød Haraldsson Skirja, King on Isle of Man
Half sister of Ingebjørg Haraldsdotter; Guttorm Haraldsson; Halvdan Haraldsson; Halftan Haraldsson «the White» Kvite; Sigfrod Haraldsson and 14 others
Added by:
Jillian on March 18, 2009
Managed by: Bjørn P. Brox and 14 others
Curated by: Bjørn P. Brox

#5: Ingeborg Haraldsdotter (birth 896!)
Ingeborg Haraldsdotter
Gender: Female
Birth: 896
Immediate Family:
Wife of Halvdan Jarl
Mother of Gunhild Halvdansdatter
Added by: Andreas Berne on May 30, 2019
Managed by: Andreas Berne

#6: Ingebjørg Haraldsdotter
https://www.geni.com/people/Ingebjørg-Haraldsdotter/600000001044308...
Female
Birth:circa 865
Lade, Trondheim, Trondheim, Sør-Trøndelag, Norway
Death: 920 (51-59) Norway
Place of Burial: Norway
Immediate Family:
Daughter of Harald I "Fairhair", king of Norway and ?? ??
Wife of Halvdan Jarl
Mother of Gunhild Halvdansdatter
Half sister of Guttorm Haraldsson; Halvdan Haraldsson; Halftan Haraldsson «the White» Kvite; Sigfrod Haraldsson; Aalov Haraldsdatter; Rörek Haraldsson; Sigtrygg Haraldsson; Frode Haraldsson; Torgils Haraldsson; Eirik Haraldsson; Bjørn Haraldson; Olav Haraldsson; Ragnar Haraldsson «Rykkil»; Halvdan Haraldsson «Longlegs» Hålegg; Gudrød Haraldsson «Gleam» Ljome, Konge av Hadeland; Ragnvald Haraldsson «Straightley» Rettilbeine; Prins af Norge, Konge over Hadafylke, Sigurd Rise Haraldsson "Hrise"; Ingegjerd Haraldsdotter; Ring Haraldsson; Dag Haraldsson; Gudrød Haraldsson Skirja, King on Isle of Man and Håkon I Haraldsson «den gode» Adalsteinfostre « less
Added by: Sherry Klein on March 3, 2007
Managed by: Palle Christensen and 69 others
Curated by: Bjørn P. Brox

Two of them are actually medieval duplicates, so I isolated them so that they can be deleted; they should not be merged in. That would be #’s 3 and 5.

Further explanation: https://www.geni.com/projects/Medieval-Tree-Clean-Up-Please-Park-Un...

It’s a bit misleading, though, since “unsourced “ is no longer a cutting line — medieval duplicate branches are merged in below the Middle Ages, isolated, and deleted.

Anne, thanks for handling the problem! You know best on how to handle, I just wanted to present my findings and work towards resolution. I look forward to reviewing it later.

Again thanks!

Anne, I am of course, most interested in how you handle this one with Bjørn P. Brox.

?? ??, (Ingebjørg's mother)
https://www.geni.com/people/Ingebjørg-s-mother/6000000010442614110

Based on what I have outlined above:
The husband relationship should be clipped from Harald I "Fairhair", king of Norway.
The husband relationship should be connected to Jalvdan Jarl, Finnmarksjarl
Halvdan Jarl

?? ??, (Ingebjørg's mother)
?? ??, (la madre de Ingebjørg) es su bisabuela número 32.
Halvdan Jarl
Halvdan Jarl is your 31st great grandfather.
Ingebjørg Haraldsdotter
Ingebjørg Haraldsdotter is your 31st great grandmother.
Este es el perfil maestro de Ingebjørg Haraldsdotter.
Nota del curador Bjørn P. Brox (4/11/2010):
To many merge this profile with her half sister Ingegerd, so we need to keep it locked.

private
It would be preferbel that you start your genealogy with you self, your parents, their sibblings, and successful work your own way up in the chain, by correcting your closest family, step by step, adding sources, places, dates, missed out profiles, and by doing so, you will be experienced enough so that when or if you ever reach thoose profiles high up in the tree, you will know what to do about it. As it seems now, you starts off in the wrong end of your tree, as it might acctually be so that due to grave errors closer to you, none of them might be your ancestors. This is a tip that all newbies should follow as it would save us all from mistakes, added duplicates, wrong mergings etc.

Ulf, It would be preferable that you not micromanage my exploration of geni.com.
Please focus on the topic at hand, not the geni users (me).

The topic at hand is "Harald I "Fairhair", king of Norway and relations.

#1: I worked up the chain and found my 29th Grandmother: "?? ??, (Ingebjørg's mother) (Wife of Harald I “Fair hair” King of Norway)" and this did not look correct:
https://www.geni.com/people/Ingebjørg-s-mother/6000000010442614110

#2: I made the proposal that "?? ??, (Ingebjørg's mother)" be changed to "N.N." as it was wrong to presume she indeed was the mother of Ingebjørg!

#3: I made the proposal that "?? ??, (Ingebjørg's mother)" = "Åshild Ringsdotter" and it appears that I have found some superfluous data (no less than 6 by the similar date and name of "Ingebjørg Haraldsdotter" which supports the theory!

#4: I made the proposal that "?? ??, (Ingebjørg's mother)" is NOT the wife of Harald I “Fair hair” King of Norway, nor is she the mother of Ingebjørg.
* She appears to be the daughter of Harald I “Fair hair” King of Norway
* And the wife of Halvdan jarls

If you would like to present your research as I have done, please do so Ulf.

Gunhild Halvdansdatter

Gunnhild, farmor til Hårek, var datter til Halvdan jarl og Ingebjørg som var datter til Harald Hårfagre.

Det berättas, att då konung Harald gifte sig med Ragnhild den mäktiga, skilde han sig från nio hustrur. Haralds barn uppfostrades vart och ett där det hade sin mödernesläkt.
Drottning Ragnhild den mäktiga levde i tre år, sedan hon kommit till Norge; efter hennes död for hennes och konung Haralds son Erik för att fostras hos hersen Thore Hroaldsson i Fjordarna. Han uppfostrades där.

Då fäste konungen Snöfrid och tog henne till hustru; han älskade henne med sådant raseri, att han försummade sitt rike och allt vad som ålåg honom. De fingo fyra söner: Sigurd oäkting, Halvdan högben, Gudröd stråle och Ragnvald likben.

Då han var nära sjuttio år gammal, fick han en son med en kvinna som kallades Thora Mosterstång, Hon härstammade från ön Moster och var av förnäm börd; hon räknade släktskap med Horda-Kåre.

Already here, we have 12 wifes in total to Harald. Source, Heimskringla.

Ulf, thank you for your story, which I have translated:
"Gunnhild, grandmother to Hårek, was daughter of Halvdan jarl and Ingebjørg who was daughter of Harald Hårfagre. It is told that when King Harald married Ragnhild the mighty, he divorced himself from nine wives. Harald's children were raised each where it had their modern family. Queen Ragnhild the Mighty lived for three years, after coming to Norway; After her death for her and King Haralds son Erik to be reared at Hersen Thore Hroaldsson in the fjords. He was raised there. Then the king attached Snöfrid and took her to wife; He loved her with such fury, that he neglected his kingdom and all that incumbent him. They had four sons: Sigurd Bastard, Halvdan Högben, Gudröd Ray and Ragnvald Likben. When he was nearly seventy years old, he received a son with a woman called Thora Mosterstång, she descended from the island aunt and was of noble descent; She counted kinship with horde-the-same. Already here, we have 12 wifes in total to Harald. Source, Heimskringla."

Proposed changes:

#1: Remove the words "Ingebjørg's mother" from the profile "?? ??, (Ingebjørg's mother)". A name not known should not presume relationships. I feel it should be changed to "N.N." but "??" is fine.

#2: Merge the six almost identical profiles of "Ingeborg Haraldsdotter." I believe curator Private User has taken the lead to resolve this issue; however there is a problem with two of the profiles.

#3: Change relationships: "?? ??, (Ingebjørg's mother)" is NOT the wife of Harald I “Fair hair” King of Norway, nor is she the mother of Ingebjørg.
* She appears to be the daughter of Harald I “Fair hair” King of Norway
* And the wife of Halvdan jarls

CONCLUSION:
* Åshild Ringsdotter is the mother of Ingebjørg, and
* "?? ??, (Ingebjørg's mother)" is the daughter of Harald I “Fair hair” King of Norway.

Do not agree. But I’m not going to argue further.

Erica, which part do you not agree? All or just some of the points below:

#1: Remove the words "Ingebjørg's mother" from the profile "?? ??, (Ingebjørg's mother)". A name not known should not presume relationships. I feel it should be changed to "N.N." but "??" is fine.

#2: Merge the six almost identical profiles of "Ingeborg Haraldsdotter." I believe curator Anne Brannen has taken the lead to resolve this issue; however there is a problem with two of the profiles.

#3: Change relationships: "?? ??, (Ingebjørg's mother)" is NOT the wife of Harald I “Fair hair” King of Norway, nor is she the mother of Ingebjørg.
* She appears to be the daughter of Harald I “Fair hair” King of Norway
* And the wife of Halvdan jarls

CONCLUSION:
* Åshild Ringsdotter is the mother of Ingebjørg, and
* "?? ??, (Ingebjørg's mother)" is the daughter of Harald I “Fair hair” King of Norway.

I’m not a student of this area, I’m just a “Geni says” descendant. However, I’ve been following discussions since 2007, and have confidence in the skills and interpretations of those who invest in it.

Logic for naming and tree placement has been explained and I have no reason (or interest) in changing it.

private — you mention me, in the thread above, as someone who would be involved in decisions about whether or not to merge the profiles listed.

I’m not.

I isolated two of the profiles because they are medieval duplicates. They will probably get deleted tomorrow.

But the other profiles are not only master profiles, but have curator’s notes specifically saying not to merge them.

If this were in a piece of the tree that I’m expert in, I might — if I disagreed with the curator — get involved in the argument. I would have to have an excellent argument, though, since it’s obvious from the curator’s notes that the similarities have already been noted.

But I already took care of my piece of things, when I isolated the duplicates. I will most certainly not be arguing with a Scandinavian curator that they don’t understand a piece of the Scandinavian tree that they have clearly thought about carefully.

Any more than they would come on over to the Welsh tree and argue that we should merge the reams and reams of Welsh profiles that have the same name as a sibling but are not the same at all, and that I have careful curator’s notes on, so that the profiles that look the same but aren’t don’t get merged.

Anne thank you so much for explaining! I don't have the curator view so I'm not privy to these kinds of issues you bring up.

Thank you also for isolating two of the profiles because they are medieval duplicates. I'm not sure what that means, but it certainly helps reduce the number of similar profiles and I'm grateful.

M Foss N. Estimates for birthyear range that Geni gives, are just Geni automatically given. It is worth nothing to speculate possible mothers or fathers because of that. Also people can add duplicates to Geni. That is no source, that is no "proof" of anything.

Heimskringla gives info about many wifes and children of Harald Fairhair/Harald Halfdansson. Among them Åshild.

Children with Åshild, daughter of Ring Dagsson

Ring Haraldsson
Dag Haraldsson
Gudrød Skirja Haraldsdotter
Ingegjerd Haraldsdotter

Other children mother not known:

Ingebjørg Haraldsdotter (Lade, Trondheim, c. 865 - 920) mother unknown, married Halvdan Jarl, Finnmarksjarl who had daughter Gunhild.

You want to change Ingebjorgs unknown mother (some it might have might have been Tora, some something else. It is not KNOWN) also to one of Haralds daughters. (??why in earth). That would make Ingebjorg granddaughter to Harald. She has not been sourced to be granddaughter.

How and where does ?? unknown mother of Ingebjorg seem to be daughter of Harald.

Ingegjerd and Ingeborg are not the same person. During years many has made the same mistake here and other programs that copies Geni, that is why there is a note in Ingegjerds profile: Do not merge with her halfsister.

You have stated many things and started new threads #1, #2...and with different statements, wanting to remove some of the profiles and so on. For finding duplicates, there is own thread and still work to be done, so that is option to work with if you do not want to concentrate to building your tree. I think you have been kindly answered many times now about this subject.

Good day for all and thanks for the input

I started writing before there was notes of curator Anne Brannen or M Foss N answer seen. Good good so this is all ok finally. Good day from North pole :)