Maud d'Eiville de Wauton - Parents?

Private User Writes

Her parents were

John de Deyville of Walton was born in 1225 in Ellesmere, Shropshire, England died on December 28, 1277, in Walton, Warwickshire, England

Shirley de Deyville of Walton was born in 1233 died in 1266 in Walton, Warwickshire, England.

see for example:
http://objgenealogy.com/indiI1916.html -- although birth date is off -- i have 1263-1325

—-

Can anyone affirm or deny?

Tagging curator Hatte Blejer (absent until Nov 1)

Maud is the daughter of Roger d'Eiville, according to this chart in the Hundred of Launditch:

https://books.google.com/books?id=iytSAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA143&dq=...

From Jim Weber’s database

https://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=jwe...

Obviously there is a great deal of confusion over everything about Maud, but her first name--and that one of her husbands, at least, was John le Strange. Following are what some respected sources state:

Ancestral Roots (249-32) merely states "Maud de Walton" (no parents, which at least is the simplest way of dealing with Maud). They cite as source "(CP [Complete Peerage] XII (1) 353, 354; C. L'Estrange Ewen, 'Observations on the LeStranges' (1946), chart opp. p. 1; 'LeStrange Records', 184-254)."

Magna Charta Sureties (137-4) states "Maud, perhaps, a de Deyville. (CP XII (1), 352-353; 'Misc. Gen. et Her.', 5th Series, IX 254-8 says she was daughter of Sir John de Wauton of Wauton Deyville. See also 'Pedigree and Progress' (Wagner) ped. 57; 'Le Strange Records, 184-253)."

Burke's Peerage states "Maud, daughter and heiress either of Roger de Deyville, of Walton Deyville, Warwicks, or of Ebles de Montibus, of Ketton, Rutland, leaving (presumably by his 2nd wife, since her putative paternity would account for the unusual forename Ebles being given to the 2nd son)."

Ok.

What this says to me is that we lock down her relationships, give her no parents, and put the information about the various speculations into the Overview.

https://books.google.com/books?id=lfIxAQAAMAAJ&lpg=PA222&ot...

Ancestress of Owen Glendower

Word.

An ancestress of mine, too, then. Huh.

Here’s an interesting comment.

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/De_Wauton-7

Concerning the parentage of Maud, many sources including older versions of the Complete Peerage made an amalgam of several people. But as explained in more recent sources such as L' Estrange Ewen, Richardson and The Victoria History of Warwickshire (under Wellesbourne), Maud de Walton (or de Wauton) was daughter of John de Wauton, son of Simon de Wauton, who bought the manor from the D'Eiville family when Roger d'Eiville had money trouble.

As explained in the VCH account, Maud was still a minor in 1277, and Walter Giffard, Archbishop of York was assigned by her parents over their manor, with the intention that Maud would inherit them. In 1281 he conveyed them to Robert Burnel, Bishop of Bath and Wells. He "undertook to marry to one of the elder sons of either his brother Hugh Burnel or of Sir Robert de Escales. As already mentioned, however, Maud married first Sir John de Strattelinges and secondly John Lestrange of Knockin, and thirdly Thomas Hastang."

Another confusion resolved only in the 20th century, comes from the fact that her second husband John Lestrange had two sons named John, one who was his main heir. He was lord of Knockin. The other was her heir, for example at Walton Deiville in Warwickshire, which was land she had by inheritance. He is referred to in some records as the king's yeoman.

The inheritance of the castle manor of Myddle came to be disputed between the heirs of the two wives. ....

We are seeing good evidence for her as a Walton. Would VCH lie?

John de Wauton

Elizabeth de Shirley Is missing her second husband

No, Elizabeth Shirley is a time traveler

Elizabeth de Shirley

John (son of Simon the Bishop) died 1277.

The dates are impossible for Elizabeth de Shirley

She’s supposed to be the daughter of Sewallis 1127 - 1200. Her husband died 1277 leaving a widow Isabel & a minor daughter & co heir Maud.

The boy children dates are OK but the locations are suspicious - Simon the Bishop is of Warwickshire, suddenly they’re in Steeple Bumstead in Essex ?

Simeon de Walton, of Steeple Bumstead in Essex & John De Walton

If Elizabeth de Shirley = Isabel the widow how come the marriage to Henry le Faun & daughter Maud are not in the Shirley pedigrees?

https://www.stirnet.com/genie/data/british/ss4as/shirley1.php

Burke’s https://books.google.com/books?id=u6IaAAAAYAAJ&lpg=PA479&ot...

I rate the VCH extremely highly, but then, that was true in my own work. Also, I used to hang out with the Northampton editor when I was in the archives in Northampton (on account of the Peterborough manuscripts had ended up there, for a while, supposedly). That was how I found out that the reason no one could figure out where the Peterborough manuscripts were was that Peterborough was a black hole of manuscripts. And what they would do is call up the archives where their MSS were -- Northampton, for instance, or Cambridgeshire -- and ask to borrow them for special occasions. And then who knows where they ended up.

At any rate.

Historians rate the VCH very very highly.

I’m thinking two different John de Walton’s are being confused. There were several Simon’s to have John sons.

Well maybe it’s OK. Em Suggs cites Magna Carta Sureties for children of Isabel Shirley, John & Maud.

https://wc.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=emsuggs&i...

So my question really is, was Elizabeth Shirley the widow of John de Wauton & mother of Maud?

https://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/warks/vol5/pp193-198#highligh...

His successor Sir John de Wauton died in or shortly before 1277, (fn. 42) leaving a widow Isabel, who married Henry le Foun, (fn. 43) and a young daughter Maud. ..,

Elizabeth de Shirley

If so, why isn’t it in Shirley Records ? We’re talking Owen Glendower ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Owain_Glyndŵr

In William Shakespeare's play Henry IV, Part 1, the character of Owen Glendower is a wild and exotic king ruled by magic and emotion.[2]

With his death Owain acquired a mythical status along with Cadwaladr, Cynan and Arthur as the hero awaiting the call to return and liberate his people. In the late 19th century, the Cymru Fydd movement recreated him as the father of Welsh nationalism.

Does it help to work back from Owain Glyndwr ap Gruffudd, Prince of Wales?

Sure, why not. I had zoomed through the Shirley’s doing some cleanup and getting them off Thomas Dyer, of Weymouth because they relate to this William Dyer, Jr., of Newport not that Dyer.

I admit to be a lurker, but since you are helping me. Doing further research I wonder if perhaps Maud Mom might be [although she is not shown as a child here]

Elizabeth de Shirley

although here the husband's dates sort of match up. If i am off base, i apologize.

cindi

Private User That’s exactly the family connection we’re debating.

That she’s Called both Elizabeth & Isabel is not a question - the nsmes seem interchangeable. But why is “Elizabeth ” Shirley not known in Shirley Family Records to have re married to
Henry Le Foun (who I can’t find anything else on). Are we then saying that Isabel of unknown parents was the surviving widow & mother of Maud?

Did Maud bring property to her Marriages that can only be explained on the mother side ?

Side note -- the names Elizabeth and Isabel are indeed sometimes interchangeable, but mostly not. The earlier the people are, the more interchangeable. This is a bit late -- we're almost 200 years past the French invasion.

But! Fun fact! Maud and Matilda are the same name, too. For quite a while.

Yah, the widow Isabel is really bothering me. If a Shirley was her mother why was Giffard her guardian ? Plus the Shirley pedigree is poor; I was just looking more at the LeStrange book, for instance, which is very nice, detailed, studied Bloomfield and Eyton, etc.

Elizabeth isn’t even listed in Visitations although her “brother” James married her sister in law Agnes Walton is:

https://archive.org/stream/visitationofcoun02camd#page/25/mode/1up

And I’m not sure Geni has the generations right, this Peerage report looks better

https://archive.org/stream/peerageofengland04colluoft#page/89/mode/1up

AND I’m stuck on - why wouldn’t Shirley’s have claimed such an illustrious descendant as Owen Glendower?

So What about postulating that Elizabeth Shirley & Isabel the widow were different people ? I do think the evidence supports Maud as daughter & heir of this John (son of Simon). Dates are right, property is right.

So, my two cents here on the Owain Glyndwr issue:

the reason the Shirleys did not claim Owain as a descendant, besides the fact that he might have been extremely popular in Wales (and still is! yes!) but was despised in England, is that his genealogy is EXTREMELY well known, and there are no Shirleys in it.

Bah da bing.

I’ll set up a second wife for John and see how that plays.

The d’Eiville Name seems to come from property: Simon, Bishop of Norwich, bought the estates.

Sorry to shut down the Owain Glyndwr inquiry. Fun while it lasted.

(He is one of my uncles; his brother in law Robert Puleston, married to Owain's sister Lowry, fought with Glyndwr, though he managed, unlike a bunch of other people, not to die in the process. He and Lowry are my direct ancestors. But I am very fond of Uncle Owain.)

I’m so glad I brought it up - it’s a key to the mystery by eliminating a possibility. I’m surprised Em Suggs hadn’t seen that in fact.

Ah, but it's Welsh. One has to know the field.

Owain did of course have some Anglo- Norman ancestry. But the Shirleys were not Marcher lords.

Ooo I found Henry le Foun - bailiff for Robert le Vavasour it looks like ?

From Patent Rolls of the Reign of Henry III.: 1247-1258 By Great Britain. Public Record Office, H. C. Maxwell Lyte (Sir.) Page 459 GoogleBooks

Pardon, for a fine of 200 marks which Robert le Vavassur made, to the said Robert, William his son, Alexander de Wandesle, Walter de Ufton, John de Scarlet, Simon le Porter, Henry le Foun, William de Morton, Stephen de Shiple, Robert de Wike, Henry Revel, John Yedrich, and William de Ufton, sometime bailiffs and ministers of the said Robert, of all trespasses in the forests, hays, woods, castles, manors, works and other bailiwicks and wardenships, which he held of the king to the day of the Conversion of St. Paul, 40 Henry III, and release to them of the king's rancour and indignation; on condition that they stand their trial in the king's court, according to law and the custom of the realm, touching trespasses committed against others than the king when the said Robert was sheriff of Nottingham and Derby or other bailiff of the king, if any will proceed against them

https://books.google.com/books?id=bivg6Arg23kC&pg=PA459&lpg...

Isabel de Wauton & Henry le Foun

Set up as parent & step parent for Maud de Walton

Does it work ?

There’s a John de Walton, sheriff of Surry - Sussex, mentioned here, but I’m thinking it’s a different family

https://books.google.com/books?id=8aXnCgAAQBAJ&pg=PA82&lpg=...