Bobon d'Austrasie - The Source link goes to porn site :-/

Angus Wood-Salomon and Pam Wilson (on hiatus) Curate two of these profiles and may like to come and check that they are happy with this.

This wife of his lacks sources: Palatina de Soissons

I'm also disconnecting this one: N.N. in favour of this one:N.N.

Sharon - Have a great time at the beach! You deserve a break.

There is no immediate rush, I just didn't want it to be forgotten, with no final decision.

Bernard

This Mummolin af Neustria is unsourced and under 12 years old for the birth of his child Bobon d'Austrasie, so I'm disconnecting him and his unsourced wife Artemia- Vitri-en-Pertois from the world tree.

Bernard - we're waiting for the cat to show up before we can leave (She went into hiding this morning) so it's probably a sign that I should do it now :-)

cf Bobon d'Austrasie

Regarding this Bobon d'Austrasie, and his wife, N.N. of the Burgundians and son Sigoald III, duke of Austrasia - no historical primary/secondary sources are cited, and they're newly created profiles - so I'm going to disconnect them from the world tree, and invite their managers to come and help us establish the sources.

So that leaves us deciding on the verifiability of the sources for Bobon d'Austrasie and his Ermengarde d'Austrasie ...

My feeling is that we don't have the primary sources available to verify any of these three relationships - Mummolian as father of Bobon/Babo and Bodogisel.
Christian Settipani proposing theories in this area is the main source documentation referenced, but nothing provides the original documentation he is referencing. It may be that the Bobon descent line goes nowhere important, so nobody has put the source online yet.
The possible problem with showing these three in a relationship, is that it it is part of an unproved attempt to link Bodegisil as the father of the Arnoul of Metz that aspires to set him up the husband of Saint Chrodoara and the father of Arnoul of Metz and therefore conveniently the ancestor of Arnulfians and Carolingians.

Bobon
Duc d'Auvergne
Les principaux de la compagnie étoient le Duc Bobon fils de Mommolene, qui y alla avec ſa femme

LES MONUMENS DE LA MONARCHIE FRANÇOISE, QUI COMPRENNENT L'HISTOIRE ..., Volum 1

Tor, if you are following the discussion about pirmary sources then you already know we need more than just "LES MONUMENS DE LA MONARCHIE FRANÇOISE".

We are looking for an actual, real, document from this period that says something about these people and their relationships.

Maybe that document is there. If you think it is, then we look to you to cite THAT document and quote the text you think is relevant.

https://archive.org/stream/bub_gb_0EX8K4nxOBYC_2/bub_gb_0EX8K4nxOBY...
Le seigneur Bobon, fils de Mommoline, fut chargé d'ac- compagner Rigonthc, ...... caractère français ; elle con- courra avec le génie allemand à introduire dans ...

Juan Carlos, maybe you can clarify the text here. If I'm reading correctly -- and it's possible I'm not -- this passage that calls Bobon a son of Mummolin -- is just explanatory text by Cénac-Moncaut, the author.

I'm not seeing a citation to an original document.

If that's true, I have deep concerns about accepting this account. Cénac-Moncaut has a very bad reputation as an historian.

The article from French Wikipedia says:
"Il est l'auteur d'un nombre considérable d'ouvrages, dont des « romans historiques et méridionaux », réunis sous le titre Aquitaine et Languedoc ; d'études historiques, géographiques, philologiques, la plupart étant fortement mises en cause dès leur parution pour leur manque d'assises véritablement scientifiques ; des publications de contes, dans un style ampoulé et moralisateur ; d'essais politiques : partisan d'idées libérales avant la révolution de février, il écrit des pamphlets anti-démocrates après la proclamation de la République. Ses ouvrages sont généralement signés simplement Cénac-Moncaut, plus rarement avec ses prénoms, et parfois Édouard Féal Cénac-Moncaut."

Google's automatic translation to English gives at least a sense of how bad he was:
"He is the author of a considerable number of works, including "historical and southern novels", brought together under the title Aquitaine and Languedoc ; historical, geographical, philological studies, most of them being strongly questioned as soon as they appeared for their lack of a truly scientific basis; storytelling publications, in a bombastic and moralistic style; of political essays: a supporter of liberal ideas before the February revolution, he wrote anti-democratic pamphlets after the proclamation of the Republic. His works are generally signed simply Cénac-Moncaut , more rarely with his first names, and sometimes Édouard Féal Cénac-Moncaut."

We can do a more exact translation if someone thinks it would reveal a better reputation.

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justin_C%C3%A9nac-Moncaut

Juan Carlos, I appreciate the link to Les ancêtres de Charlemagne in your message above. Last time I looked Google had restricted the text. There are still some key pages I'm not getting. I would need to make a trip to a local library in order to really take a look.

I'll spend more time here later, but skimming the text now it seems Sharon is correct that there is not enough here to do much more than assert primary documentation for Bobon's existence. ("Un autre fils de Mummolin, Bobon, fut également ambassadeur à Byzance en 584"). I see this snippet on p. 125 but don't see the surrounding text or the supporting documentation.

This is not the only piece that's hidden. The ancestry of Arnulf begins on p. 121, but pages 122 to 127 which would contain key pieces of the discussions are also hidden. And -- we already know from comparing the different charts on pages 52 and 54 that Settipani already sees the descent from Arnulf as less certain than other parts of the genealogy.

However, I think Settipani is giving us a fragmentary tree, albeit not connected to Charlemagne with certainty.

There is some meat on p. 165 where Settipani is finally dealing with Mummolin. Settipani says "Il [this Mummolin] s'idenifie apparemment à Mummolin de Soissons père du duc Bobon et de Bodogisel . . ." This tells us something but there is more to the argument here. Pages 145, 147, the chart on page 149, and so on.

Assuming a real reading stands up to it, I'd think I'd be inclined to accept that chart,

(But notice Arnulf does NOT connect here.. His name appears for convenience of understanding the possible connection.)

Sorry folks, I mis-typed there. It is not Arnulf who does not connect. It's Bobon's "children". Dotted line there.

I could delete that message, go back, edit it, and re-post, but it seems easier to make the correction, and also have the chance to say that this stuff is very labor intensive. I think we should all be able to expect people to dig out and post this stuff themselves when they want to make a change. -- And I'm only half joking here ;)

Thanks Justin - you are a star.
I did follow Juan Carlos' link to the Settipani theory. (Are his books available / cheap enough to buy?- because I would definitely do that straight away - it would make these discussions so much easier.)
For your and my reasons above, it seemed not quite sufficient. I'm more worried about setting up one of number of competing theories on Geni though, as this invites mismerges.

If everyone here is happy that the Mummolian as father of Babo and Bodegisal is considered by contemporary historians to be as accurate as we can get it, we can definitely keep them like that and lock them in place.

?Puede ser util¿ Bodogisel is a noble Frankish Austrasia, brother and son of Duke Babon Mummolin , Count Soissons. Sent an embassy to Constantinople in 589 , he stopped in Carthage where the mob killing. Babon his brother is known to have also sent an embassy to Constantinople in 585. According to many historians, it is likely the father of Arnulf of Metz 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 and thus the ancestor of Arnulfiens and Carolingians 5 .
Notes and references
Christian Settipani , The Ancestors of Charlemagne , Paris, 1989, 170 p. ( ISBN 2-906483-28-1 ) Christian Settipani , "The contribution of onomastics in the study of genealogies Carolingian" in Onomastics and Kinship in the medieval West , and Prosopographica genealogic, Oxford, 2000, 310 p. ( ISBN 1-900934-01-9 ) , p. 185-229 Christian Settipani , The Prehistory of the Capetian ( New genealogical history of the royal house of France , vol. 1) , ed. Patrick van Kerrebrouck, 1993 ( ISBN 2-9501509-3-4 ) , p. 139-146 Hervé Pinoteau , The French royal symbolism, V e - XVIII th century , PSR editions, 2004, p. 43 Bodogisel and Mummolin being attached to Mundéric and Clodéric the Carolingians would then be the direct descendants of the Frankish kings of Cologne.

- , Préfets de P A R I S.
[ 141 .. # Louis de France, Dauphin f .
1 Erchinoald Préfet de Paris. º
2 Mummole en 588.
# Ercembald en 665.

Childebert avoit envoié en Ambaſſade à Conſtantinople vers l'Empereur
Maurice, Bodegiſile fils de Mommolene de Soiſſons, Evance fils de Dyname
d'Arles, & Grippon François de nation, qui s'étant embarquez, aborderent à
un port d'Afrique, & ſe rendirent à Carthage, où ils attendoient les ordres du Ambaſſa
Prefet de laVille pour s'embarquer.

Les principaux de la compagnie étoient le Duc Bobon fils de Mommo
lene, qui y alla avec ſa femme, & qui étoit comme le Paranymphe, Domegi
ſele, Anſouald & le Maire du Palais Vaddon, qui avoit été autrefois Gouver
neur ou Comte de Saintonge.

Toir, if you read Settipani here you will see that he has more doubts here than you do.