Bobon d'Austrasie - The Source link goes to porn site :-/

I have been searching, and here is what I was able to find.

1. There are no references in Medlands to any of these individuals.

2.. Bobon is sometimes spelled Bobbon. He is also sometimes referred to as Ratbod.

3. There is a Wikipedia entry: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mummolin (with no references) for Mummolin which shows that he had two sons, Duke Bobon and Bodogisel. It further shows that Babon had a daughter Ermengunde, which yesterday I connected to my version of Bobon's profile.

4. There is a French Wikipedia entry: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodogisel for Bodogisel (also with no references) that shows the relationship between the two brothers and the father.

5. I could not find and references to Sigoald III as a son of Bobon.

There are many private genealogies that show these relationships, but all without references.

Maybe someone else can find a more respected authority.

Bernard

Here is another duplicate of Bobon:

Ratbod de Auvergne

Along with duplicates of his father and daughter and others

Bernard

Hmm - :-/ Thank you for searching. So, no actual sources? Is the line being used to link people into 'prestigious' lines?

Sharon;

I couple of thoughts;

1. So, no actual sources? - I am an amateur, and have no resources available to me other than Medlands and using Google to search the web. I was hoping that someone (including the curators and managers of these profiles) with better resources than I would find an authority on this individual. So far no one has responded. Does that there are no sources or that no one has looked?

2. Is the line being used to link people into 'prestigious' lines? Possibly, but most "prestigious" Medieval persons were born after Bobon, and therefore would not be an ancestor of his.

3. My last comment is more theoretical. I understand that Wikipedia entries are not considered in the same light as other, more scholarly sources. I fully support that position. But what if no sources are found to either confirm or refute the two, independent, Wikipedia entries that do exist. My view is a dubious source is better than nothing. Otherwise, you will be forced to disconnect all the various versions of Bobon from all their ancestors and decedents, leaving a bunch of isolated single profiles. Is this in the best interest of the WFT? Is that the policy of GENI?

If no further info is forthcoming, I would suggest that you should merge the various profiles together, preserving the father from one, and the one child from the other that are both consistent with the Wikipedia articles, recognizing that if better info is found in the future that they may be changed.

What do you think?

Hi Bernard - I'll go and take a look at both issues now. Just a quick response to your chat above:
1. Medlands is a good indicator of actual sources - so none there suggests that there are likely to be none (readily available, or in actual fact).
2. Okay
3 Wikipedia is fine if it lists reputable sources - my response was to you saying that it doesn't.

Re "My view is a dubious source is better than nothing. Otherwise, you will be forced to disconnect all the various versions of Bobon from all their ancestors and decedents, leaving a bunch of isolated single profiles. Is this in the best interest of the WFT? Is that the policy of GENI?"
Short answer - yes and yes.
Geni is committed to removing fictitious profiles that have no sources to validate them. In the Medieval lines there are so many of these fakes from various attempts to create vanity links in a time when this was difficult to check.
See projects: https://www.geni.com/projects/Spurious-Pedigrees/10512, https://www.geni.com/projects/Descents-from-Antiquity/12283 and https://www.geni.com/projects/Fictional-Genealogy/8908 just for starters.

Although it's hard to let them go, sometimes, these unsuourced links stand in the way of real scholarship while they are there. They also make geni somewhat of a laughing stock in the genealogical community, and they prevent us finding our real lines.

This is the extract on Charlemagne from The Descents From Antiquity Project:

=== Charlemagne ===

Millions of people in the world today are descendants of the Frankish emperor Charlemagne, and they can prove it. Charlemagne’s family were upstarts, however. There are no proven links between Charlemagne and his predecessors in the Merovingian dynasty. In fact, Charlemagne has only 10 proven ancestors. Using Ahnentafel numbering, his ancestry looks like this:

# [Charlemagne Charlemagne]
# [Pépin III, King of the Franks Pepin the Short], father
# [Bertha Broadfoot of Laon, Queen of the Franks Bertrade of Laon], mother
# [Charles Martel Charles Martel], father’s father
# [Rotrude Rotrude], father’s mother
# [Charibert, count of Laon Caribert of Laon], mother’s father
# ---
# [Pépin ll "the Fat" d'Héristal, Mayor of the Palace of Austrasia Pepin of Herstal], father’s father’s father
# [Alpais Alpaida], father’s father’s mother
# ---
# ---
# ---
# [Bertrade de Prüm Bertrada of Prüm], mother’s father’s mother
# ---
# ---
# [Ansegisel de Metz Ansegisel], father’s father’s father’s father
# [Saint Beggue of Austrasia Begga], father’s father’s father’s mother

In Charlemagne’s time, genealogists working under the patronage of the royal family claimed that Charlemagne had several connections to the Merovingian dynasty. These claims enhanced the royal family’s prestige and made it look like Charlemagne’s family had a genuine claim to the throne. Modern scholars doubt these connections. Even though the evidence is reasonably contemporary, the political motivations make it suspect.

Some modern scholars, working with original documents, believe they have found evidence to show that Charlemagne’s ancestry can be traced, probably, to an old Roman senatorial family. The reconstruction is plausible, because the Franks who Charlemagne ruled had conquered the old Roman province of Gaul in 486, and the Franks are known to have intermarried with the surviving Gallo-Roman aristocracy.

# [Flavius Afranius Syagrius, Consul 382 Flavius Afranius Syagrius], of Lyons; a Gallo-Roman senator
# [[clarissima Femina] (Syagria)], his unknown daughter; married [Tonantius Ferreolus Ferreolus]
# [Tonantius Ferreolus, II Tonantius Ferreolus], a Gallo-Roman senator; married [Papianilla Papianilla], clarissima femina, a relative of the [Papianilla Papianilla] who was a daughter of the emperor [Avitus, Western Roman Emperor Avitus], and who married [Saint Sidonius Apollinarius, Bishop of Clermont Sidonius Apollinaris]
# [Tonantius Ferreolus Tonantius Ferreolus], a Gallo-Roman senator; married [Industria de Narbonne Industria]
# [Duke Ferreolus de Rodez Ferreolus], a Gallo-Roman senator; married [Saint Deuteria (Doda), abbess of Saint Pierre de Reims Dode], abbess of St.-Pierre de Rheims
# [Ansbert of Moselle Ansbert], a senator; married [Blithildis Bilichilde]
# [Arnoaldus de Metz Arnoald], Bishop of Metz
# [Saint Dode of Metz Dode], probably his daughter; married [Saint Arnoul, Bishop of Metz St. Arnulf], Bishop of Metz
# [Ansegisel de Metz Ansegisel], probably their son; married [Saint Beggue of Austrasia St. Begga]; daughter of [Pepin of Landen Pepin I], Mayor of the Palace of Austrasia
# [Pépin ll "the Fat" d'Héristal, Mayor of the Palace of Austrasia Pepin of Herstal], Mayor of the Palace of Austrasia; married [Alpais Alpais / Alpaida]
# [Charles Martel Charles Martel], Mayor of the Palace of Austrasia; married [Rotrude Rotrude]
# [Pépin III, King of the Franks Pepin the Short], Mayor of the Palace of Austrasia; married [Bertha Broadfoot of Laon, Queen of the Franks Bertrada of Laon]
# [Charlemagne Charlemagne]

(Based on the work of David H. Kelley and Christian Settipani. See, for example, Don Stone, [http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/1998-03/... soc.genealogy.medieval], March 11, 1998)

Using this reconstruction as a starting point, many other scholars have attempted to extend Charlemagne’s ancestry further, with varying degrees of success.

Hmm, so going back to Mummolin, Mayor of the Palace of Neustria
What sources prove the existence of Mummolin, Mayor of the Palace of Neustria? Justin Durand, can you pop your head in here - as you've worked on this profile and appear to have found none.

From the profile for Arnoaldus de Metz It is a subject of much debate among genealogists whether or not Arnoald is the father of Arnulf bishop of Metz, who, according to Christian Settipani's early publications, is a perfect candidate. Settipani contradicts himself in newer publications, stating that Arnulf of Metz couldn't have been Arnoald's son given to no mention of the former having any royal blood. Further speculation indicate Arnulf's father could be a Bodegisel, based on documents from old Frankish legends. This statement is also uncertain. He states instead that Arnoald was Arnulf's father in law.

Sharon Lee Doubell Hola Sharom ,puedo ser uno de los millones como tu dices?
Este es el perfil maestro de Charlemagne.
Nota del curador Sharon Lee Doubell (5/11/2018):
Charlemagne
http://www.geni.com/projects/Charlemagne-Emperor-of-the-West/1550
•
Charlemagne is your 35th great grandfather.

Este es el perfil maestro de Charlemagne.
Nota del curador Sharon Lee Doubell (5/11/2018):
Charlemagne
http://www.geni.com/projects/Charlemagne-Emperor-of-the-West/1550
Charlemagne is your 35th great grandfather.
You
→ Juan Iges Blom
your father → Carmen Cristina Blom
his mother → Ana Hilda Madsen
her mother → Lars Mathiasen
her father → Mathias Larsen
his father → Sophie Margrete Mathiasdatter
his mother → Karen Jensdatter
her mother → Kirstine Margrete Christiansdatter
her mother → Christian Jeppensen Bruun
her father → Karen Nielsdatter Bruun
his mother → Niels Frandsen Bruun
her father → Johanne Andersdatter Grøn
his mother → Anders Eriksen Grøn, til Tamdrup Bisgaard
her father → Erik Jensen Grøn, til Voergaard
his father → Maren Andersdatter Bjørn of Voergaard
his mother → Anne Bjorn Laurensdatter Muus, af Stenalt
her mother → Laurens Jensen Muus, til Stenalt
her father → Mette Strangesdatter Bild
his mother → Mette Olufsdatter Glob
her mother → Oluf Mogensen Glob
her father → Mogens Anderson Glob (Due)
his father → Korsridder Anders Nielsen Due, til Tubetorp
his father → Niels Alexandersen Falster
his father → Margrete Valdemarsdatter, Prinsesse af Danmark
his mother → Sophia of Minsk
her mother → Volodar Glebovich, Prince of Minsk
her father → Anastasija Jaropolkovna Jaropolkowna, Princess
his mother → Kunigunde von Weimar-Orlamünde, Erbin von Beichlingen
her mother → Adela van Leuven
her mother → Ada de Lorraine
her mother → Urraca d'Ivrea
her mother → Berengar II of Ivrea, king of Italy
her father → Gisela de Friuli
his mother → Berengario I, re d'Italia
her father → Giséle of Cysoing
his mother → Louis I, The Pious
her father → Charlemagne
his father

Bernard, do you read French wikipedia typically or did the English wikipedia page lead you there?
In really desperate cases i use Chrome's inbuilt translator to read all the different language wikipedia's off a particular page as the info between didn't wikipedia can be enormous.
Another trick is to check the Discussion (or is it Talk) tab of the wikipedia page, there can be mountains of extra info on those pages.

Sharon, a lack of sources on Medlands can simply indicate Crawley hasn't invested much effort on that line. It doesn't follow that there is nothing to find.

> Mummolin

I don't have citations to primary sources. He is mentioned briefly in academic literature, so there seems to be no doubt about his existence.

See, for example, Suzanne Fonay Wemple, Women in Frankish Society: Marriage and the Cloister, 500 to 900 (Univ. of Penn. Pr., 2015),.

https://books.google.com/books?id=DLUzCwAAQBAJ&pg=PT74&lpg=...

And, of course he's also mentioned by Settipani, who is an academic historian.

> Arnulf

I recommend the following article from French Wikipedia: It shows the complexity and history of the problem.

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origine_des_Arnulfiens

One of the main arguments against Arnulf as a son of Arnoald is that Arnulf is described as a Frank, while Arnould is described as coming from a Senatorial (Gallo-Roman) family. The two categories are mutually exclusive.

Alex RE "Sharon, a lack of sources on Medlands can simply indicate Crawley hasn't invested much effort on that line. It doesn't follow that there is nothing to find."
Yes, - this is me fishing for what else there might be.

Shew Justin - that article reads clearly to start with, but seems to devolve into a confusion of speculation as it goes on. It might be that the translation is less efficient the longer the document, or that it's different people contributing - or it might well be me.

What do you two think?

> What do you two think?

I don't understand the question.

Sharon - Thanks for you efforts on this "fishing" expedition.

To answer your question about the French Wikipedia entry, the English entry did not lead me to the French entry, and I don't normally read anything in French. There was an "about" section in one of the profiles that had links to both entries. Although I had 3 years of HS French (over 1/2 century ago), I used Google translate to read it in English.

I went back and looked at both the English and French Wikipedia articles. I erred when I said there were no references, Actually the English article has 1 reference, and the French article has several.

Although Justin's reference to Wemple's book does not mention Bobon, it does establish the relationship between Mummolin and Bodogisel, which is consistent with the Wikipedia reticles.

To be clear - Bobon is a real person, he is mentioned in several articles documenting the "Mayors of the Palace" and all are consistent with his existence, place in the sequence of mayors and the dates he served. However, none of those articles discussed his parents, wife or children.

Bernard

Shew Justin - that article reads clearly to start with, but seems to devolve into a confusion of speculation which didn't as it goes on. It might be that the translation is less efficient the longer the document, or that it's different people contributing - or it might well be me.

What do you two think?

This seemed seminal to me, but maybe not:

"The study of fake Carolingian genealogies leads to their division into two distinct groups:

the so-called Metzine genealogies, which were established by the scribes of the bishopric of Metz around 810 and claim that Saint Arnulf is the son of Arnoald,
the so-called Fontenelle genealogies, which affirm that Saint Arnulf is the son of Bodogisel .
In the xiii th century , Aegidius Orval is the first to identify Bodogisel and Arnoald as a single character, to reconcile these two groups of genealogies."https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origine_des_Arnulfiens

In my opinion the article reads as though it has had many authors. Not uncommon with Wikipedia.

I've seen papers arguing for and against each of these theories, so I might be filling in the blanks from other things I've read.

What I take away is that the Arnulf's ancestry is not clear. If someone wants to argue a particular solution, I'm interested to read it but I'm not going to think they're better and smarter than everyone else with a theory ;)

Re Mummolin: "However, none of those articles discussed his parents, wife or children...Bernard"'
That's what i found.

Settipani does. But hard to find a copy.

It's not just you, Sharon, the subject *is* confusing. The bottom line is that there are several competing theories, several possible constructed genealogies, and little to no evidence for choosing between them. (I read the French Wikipedia article *in* French.)

I really was suffering from info overload last night :-) Bernard was talking about Bobon not Mummolin regarding absence of info on family.

E R s ce même tems Grimoald qui avoit épouſé la fille de Ratbod
Duc des Friſons, aiant appris que Pepin ſon pere étoit malade à Jupil
ſur la Meuſe, s'y rendit pour lui rendre viſite.

Les principaux de la compagnie étoient le Duc Bobon fils de Mommo
lene, qui y alla avec ſa femme, & qui étoit comme le Paranymphe, Domegi
ſele, Anſouald & le Maire du Palais Vaddon, qui avoit été autrefois Gouver
neur ou Comte de Saintonge.

Source:
LES MONUMENS
de
LA MONARCHIE
FRANGOISE.

I posted the link below in a discussion on Mummolin, but it applies here as well.

I think the last three posts by Erica Howton are very interesting, especially the middle one.

It specifically provides the reference material used.
It also details Mummolin's marriage and his two sons, including Duke Bobon.
If you follow Bobon's link it also provides a list of references, and details regarding his marriage and his children.

I am posting this reply on this discussion, and also on several other related discussions. I would like to re-focus these discussions to the original issues.
On 12/14/18 I posted on the Medieval Dups thread 2 dups for duke Bobon, both locked and neither connected to WFT. I had created a temporary 3rd version in order to attach Bobon's daughter, Ermengarde d'Austrasie
Sharon Lee Doubell felt she needed more info, and started several profile discussions questioning the very existence of Bobon, his children, his brother (Duke Bodogisel) and his father, Mummolin. This was the correct thing to do. There have been many posts from different users providing a variety of sources. My opinion is that the post by Erica Howton (https://wc.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=wtm2&......) is particularly definitive, but that is just my opinion.
Side digressions have also occurred, including whether or not Mummolin ever held the title of " Mayor of the Place of Neustria".
However, the original issue of the three Bobon duplicates has not yet been decided, nor whether his relationship with his father, brother and children have acceptable sources to allow them to exist.
I am not sure more info will be forthcoming, since the last post was 1 week ago. Perhaps we could make a decision based on what was already found and posted?

Is this the site you're looking at?

https://wc.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=wtm2&id=I...

If so, what I see are two good secondary sources -- Settipani and Mommaerts. That's enough to convince me Bobon was a real person, but I see no citations to primary sources so I remain skeptical about his genealogy.

I belong to the Yahoo group that has the Mommaerts chart. I have a good opinion of Ford Mommaerts but this particular chart is just a quick reference guide to his reconstruction of this area. It doesn't cite primary sources and it's not definitive.

Then too, Settipani's material is very often also speculative. I would want to see a copy of the relevant page(s) from Les Ancetres de Charlemagne to see whether he cites any primary sources for these relationships.

Justin Swanstrom http://sites.rootsweb.com/~medieval/addcharlENG.pdf

Les ancêtres de Charlemagne
- Página 147
https://books.google.com.ar/books?isbn=1900934159
Christian Settipani - 2015 - ‎
Surtout, nous possédons un document du VIIe siècle, le testament d'Adalgisel Grimon, noble diacre de Verdun qui cite sa sœur Ermengonde, son frère Adon, son neveu le duc Bobon et, sans la nommer, sa tante paternelle enterrée à Amay.

Sorry for leaving this Bernard Joseph Albanese. I'm on holiday at the beach, and there hasn't been long enough to sit and figure out the logical lines to put/keep/cut on geni.
It certainly isn't immediately obvious :-(

On Mummolin, Mayor of the Palace of Neustria -
I'd say that we've decided that he exists, but there is no proof of his family. So those relationships should be cut until we find proof of the father of ... de Metz Sandregisisle, seigneur de Bibigny Sigolène d'Austrasie Ratbod de Auvergne Gallus Magnus of Rome.