History of the Mayflower Planters, by L.C. Hills, and the Norman fitz Rogers from Sicily— please advise

The dating here is funky

page 4, Sir Symon's only surviving child, and sole heiress, was his daughter, Elizabeth deFurneaux born in 1330. She married first about 1350, Sir John Blount, Knight and a Constable of the Tower by whom she had a daughter Alice about 1351. Sir John died about 1384, leaving an attractive and wealthy widow, who inherited many large estates. Dame Elizabeth's second marriage was to John FitzRoger and she thus became the patriarchal mother of the later, distinguished ROGER-FURNEAUX FAMILY of England

Because

SIR JOHN FITZ3 ROGER (JOHN2 FITZROGER, AARON1) was born 1386, and died October 04, 1441 in at his home at Bryanstone. He married AGNES DE MERCAUNT 1406. She was born in Seamer, Suffolk Co

She’s having a second family 35 years (1386) after known child in 1351? Age 50?

Maybe he’s a step son.

James Rogers of New London Had been since been disproven from the Rogers pedigree given in Encyclopedia of Connecticut biography: genealogical-memorial; representative citizens, Volume 2 .American Historical Society, The American historical society, incorporated, 1917 - Connecticut, Page 239 https://books.google.com/books?id=JyoEAAAAYAAJ&lpg=RA2-PA239&am...

What are these “vast Furneaux estates?” It does not look like they stayed Furneaux?

https://books.google.com/books?id=2KJJAQAAMAAJ&lpg=PA38&ots...

Archaeologia Cambrensis W. Pickering, 1868 - Wales “Contributions toward a cartulary of Margam” Page 38 - 39

(Text in next post)

Among the St. John evidence [Lansdown M.S. 860a. fol. 348] is a charter by which “Elizabeth le Blount, wife of the Lord John le Blount, Kt., in her widowhood, grants to John Purvill, perpetual vicar of Lankarvan, and to John Tokiker, son of William Tokiker, all the pasture between my wood in the castle of Penmark, and the brook there, etc. Dated 13 May, 36 Ed. III ....

Sir John [Blount] and Lady Elizabeth [Ferneaux] had one daughter, Alice le Blount, heiress of the Humfranville and Furneaux estates. She married first Sir Richard Stafford, who was dead 8 R. II, and afterwards Sir Richard Storey, who survived. She died childless, 1414-5. [Inq. p.m., 2 H. IV, No. 27.] Upon Lady Storey's death the Furneaux estates seem to have gone to the descendants of the sisters of her grandfather, Sir Simon, but the descent of those of Humfranville, and the manner in which they eventually reached St. John is not so clear. ....

Re your question above, what is Aaron in Italian —

They were still using Norman names. They hadn’t assimilated. So Aaron doesn’t need to translated.

But Aaron isn’t a common Norman name.

It was known in England, though.

An$ yes the name means son of Roger, but it had become a surname by that time.

Elizabeth, Lady Blount was a widow in 1362, so if she remarried, wouldn’t it have been long before her supposed 1387 Burial: Abbey, Athelney, Somersetshire, England?

Her son born 1386?

There’s a missing generation. Since the Furneaux lands went to her daughter, and then her grandfather Simon de Furneaux’s supposed sisters, how is Sir John Fitz Roger, Knt. her heir?

Answer. He wasn’t her son. He was a property manager.

Agree?

Sweet, we finally have someone interesting. Friend of Chaucer !

https://books.google.com/books?id=D7qBsLfYaYwC&lpg=PA169&ot...

Sir Richard Sturry, Knt.

Derek Brewer! One of the big guns.

So it looks like Richardson did a thorough job on this family grouping

https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000084725637672&

No sign of a Fitz Rogers.

Can I go ahead and spin off Sir John the Furneux estate manager from not his wife? Among all other reasons, the chronology is whacked.

Yep.

Thanks for taking me up on this. You have been very useful!

To answer the question re "Aaron" in Italian: if it was used at all, it was *extremely* rare. The 1753 Catasto for Calitri contains dozens of Antonios and assorted Angelos, Andreas, and Ambrosios, but not one single Aaron in any variation.

Erika said:
"Shirley Edmonds do you know the book?"

Somewhat. Lots of errors.

RE: "History of the Mayflower Planters, . . . . "
https://books.google.com/books?id=7R9FrcTCswMC&pg=PA141&dq=...

Shirley says:
Personally I wouldn't quote anything from it about Stephen Hopkins or Richard Warren. Those are the two Mayflower guys I know best. The actual records from Plymouth regarding the family are accurate, but there's too much goofy stuff in the book that was copied from some place that was opinion or supposition or totally wrong to begin with.

STEPHEN HOPKINS
page 116 is wrong and totally outdated.... Looks like they copied out of that awful "Signers of the Mayflower Compact" fiasco from the 1890s. All I can see of page 116 in the preview format is that they are repeating the disproved Gloucestershire thing. At least they got his death range correct (between the will and the inventory).

page 44 again repeats the Gloucestershire thing.

It says first wife is unknown -- WAAAY TO OLD TO BE USED. Obviously was published before 1998 when Caleb Johnson found Mary in the Hamsphire records along with baptisms of Constance and Giles Hopkins.

IF YOU SEARCH for the name "Wheldon" it comes up close to a clip about Stephen Hopkins Page 124 is wrong. There is no son of the Mayflower Hopkins named Stephen who was bp 22 Dec 1609 at St. Stephen, Coleman St, London. It's listed as "possiblity only" but it isn't even the right record. THE CORRECT CHURCH for the baptism of an unknown Stephen was really "St. Katherine Coleman" and the date was actually 3 Dec 1609. Banks made the original mistake, Hodges copied it, and you know the rest.

See explanation for how that error got invented:
https://books.google.com/books?id=rCBON29ATpsC&printsec=frontco...

IF YOU SEARCH for the name "Whelden" you again see that name "Catone" which is only seen in Giles Hopkins' will. We now know that Catherine Wheldon/Whelden's baptism record spelled her name Kathren. But those records weren't found until 10 years ago...again -- out of date book for any PRE-Plymouth into for these guys!

RICHARD WARREN
IF YOU SEARCH for the name WARREN one of the preview pages is 150--- it's wrong. He didn't marry Elizabeth Jewet/Jouatt/Ivatt, the widow of Francis March or Marsh. She was NOT the widow of "Juat Pratt". That name is probably an attempt to write out her maiden name as it appears in various records and the really hard job of trying to decipher the handwriting. "Ivatt" was read Pratt in one record and they didn't bother to find any other spellings. Juat is something related to Jouatt or Jouett all variations of Ivatt.

There was a different Richard Warren who married the widow Marsh/March but they were married AFTER Richard of the Mayflower had died.

Shirley's recommendation for the PLANTERS book. Thumbs down.
(But not as thumbs down as the awful "Mayflower Signers" book by Annie Arnoux Haxtun).

------------------------

I DON'T KNOW IF YOU GUYS
HAVE SEEN THE REVIEW BY
BANGS OF THESE
MAYFLOWER BOOKS:

http://www.sail1620.org/Articles/always-more-pilgrim-books-what-s-n...

Some good. Some not so much.
--------------------------

I got here late and you guys have probably already figured this out...
"Forefathers and Descendants of Willard & Genevieve Wilson Bartlett: . ..."
is not a good source for Hopkins! Hee heee.

Shirley

It’s actually fascinating that there are new discoveries about the Mayflower ancestors, one would think otherwise in such well tracked areas.

Reading author Leon Clark Hills autobiographical statement, he billed himself as a local historian and hobbyist. I wonder who sponsored his book and how it came to be held in so many libraries ...

The lesson for the rest of us is be very careful on English origins of our arrivers.

Thank you, Shirley!

Re: http://www.sail1620.org/Articles/always-more-pilgrim-books-what-s-n...

Excellent read. Bangs is boss !

I’ve now stumbled into the Mordaunt pedigree, described on http://www.mordaunt.me.uk/origins.html

his account has been denounced as 'one of the most daring and successful concoctions intended to provide an ancient house with a Conquest pedigree,' (Quoted from "British History Online). In so many ways it does not add up, such as the facts that there is no corroberating evidence from the official record in the Domesday Book, 1086, and that Osbert would have been at least 70 or 80 years old at the time of the Norman invasion of Ireland (1169). But it achieved Henry's objectives; every gazetteer of Peerages and Baronetages published since to this day has reproduced as fact all or some of the detail.

So, did the first Mordaunt arrive with the conquest or sometime after? If after, would that have been a short time after or a long time after?

We do not know if the name was adopted before or after the arrival in England.

——

The tree on Geni does not try to make a continental connection (yay) but the next few generations are mixed up. Can anyone help? I’ve added more notes in the profile for Osbert le Mordaunt the MP tree (sourced and noted) has some variation with Bentham’s account.

And I’m peeling off the Fitz Roger wife from this family, because “that” spurious pedigree has her born in Suffolk, not Turvey in Bedfordshire.

I love it when I ask little questions and they turn into a collective dissertation.

Regarding the "Conquest", it wasn't a one-shot thing. William of Normandy spent the next twenty years breaking England to his yoke, and the job wasn't quite finished when he died. (William II Rufus tried to finish bullying the English, and got an arrow in his back for his pains. Henry I took the less violent route of marrying into the old Saxon line as represented by Eadgyth/Matilda of Scotland, whose grandfather had been Edward the Exile.)

So basically, anybody could have come along as "reinforcements" any time between 1066 and about 1110.

More evidence that JC Underwood was stringing together every Rogers he could find into a conflated mess.

Thomas Rogers, of Bradford

Biography is here

https://media.geni.com/p13/01/66/c2/93/53444849a9271344/59a83e55-99...

He was not the son of Thomas Rogers, Gent.

His father’s name was not known to the biographer, but supposedly from a Thomas Rogers, mayor of Bristol

Charlene Newport Had done some lovely sourcing work & previously gotten him off the John Rogers the Martyr family.

I connect to the American immigrant William Matlack, Sr., of Chester Township

A real source for Agnes Mordaunt is given as

Early Yorkshire charters; being a collection of documents anterior to the thirteenth century made from the public records, monastic chartularies, Roger Dodsworth's manuscripts and other available sources Author: Farrer, William, 1861-1924 Publication: Publisher Edinburgh : Printed for the editor by Ballantyne, Hanson Vol. 1, 1914

https://wc.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=curry2017&amp...

Agnes FitzRoger

Link to the actual book: https://archive.org/details/earlyyorkshirech01farruoft/page/n9

Thank you, this will help.

I’m not getting anywhere with the charters.

But the Edmund Mordaunt seen as a father of Elizabeth would, I think, have been this one:

'Parishes: Turvey', in A History of the County of Bedford: Volume 3, ed. William Page (London, 1912), pp. 109-117. British History Online http://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/beds/vol3/pp109-117 [accessed 16 December 2018].

He was living two years later, but by 1346 had been succeeded by his son Robert Mordaunt. (fn. 14) The next lord of this manor of whom mention has been found is Edmund Mordaunt, probably a son of Robert, of whom it is stated in an inquisition taken in 1372 that on the Sunday before the Feast of St. Simon and St. Jude in that year, being seized with homicidal mania, he killed his wife Ellen and drowned himself on the same day in a pool in Turvey. (fn. 15) Robert, his son, who according to Halstead united in one the hitherto separate manors of Mordaunts and Ardres, died some time before 1397, (fn. 16)

http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00451110&tre...

Cites

S01719] The Visitations of Buckinghamshire .
Page 185

[S01354] ~Burke's Peerage and Baronetage, 1999 .
1992

[S01534] The Wallop Family and Their Ancestry 1928 , Watney, Vernon James.
564

https://archive.org/details/visitationofcoun5859byuphil/page/185 No daughter Agnes listed

http://www.mordaunt.me.uk/biographies.html

Edmund, the elder, our Member’s grandfather, is now chiefly remembered for the bout of insanity which led him to murder his wife and immediately afterwards drown himself at his manor of Turvey. Perhaps as a reaction to these tragic events, his son, who was then under age, passed the rest of his life quietly, out of the public eye. He made a general settlement of his property upon feoffees in 1391; and it seems likely that when he died shortly afterwards his heir, the subject of this biography, was still quite young. The widowed Agnes Mordaunt remarried almost immediately. In November 1397 she and her second husband, Thomas Fotheringay, were involved in litigation for the recovery of land in Buckinghamshire which she claimed as dower, but little else is known about them for the next 15 Years.3

Agnes Mordaunt is listed here

http://www.tudorplace.com.ar/MORDAUNT.htm#Agnes%20MORDAUNT1

https://books.google.com/books?id=K2FHAQAAMAAJ&lpg=PA778&ot...

Genealogical and Heraldic Dictionary of the Peerage and Baronetage ..., Part 2 Page 778 for the murdered Helen Brock, daughter of Ralph

Private User another companion of William the Conqueror, or more tricked up pedigree by the pseudonymous Robert Halstead ?

Sampson Fortis

I got the Osbert “Osmond” Mordaunt, of Turvey line into a more sensible chronology.

I don’t have an opinion on Agnes FitzRoger need the parents / brother’s IPM

There should be ways to better put together this John Shottesbroke, of Beckett, Esq. tree

And I’m a little lost here trying to interpret David Nash’s database correctly on Berkshire history

John Rogers, of Benham Valence

That would be the Ancestry of Elizabeth Essex

Who JC Underwood placed as a daughter of Thomas Rogers, Gent.