History of the Mayflower Planters, by L.C. Hills, and the Norman fitz Rogers from Sicily— please advise

Started by Anne Brannen on Thursday, December 13, 2018
Problem with this page?

Participants:

Profiles Mentioned:

Related Projects:

Showing 1-30 of 68 posts
12/13/2018 at 7:56 AM

A query, oh my American Colonial experts, from your medievalist cohort.

I’m working on a line that is supposedly from Normans in Sicily, supposedly descended from the de Hautevilles, who then went to England.

It’s sounding decidedly suspicious to me, and the only evidence I have found so far is from L.C. Hiil’s “History of the Mayflower Planters.”

The relevant passage isn’t even that helpful — here, from Sir Aaron Fitz Roger, Il

“Source of the following is: History of MF Planters by L.C. Hills: The Rogers Family: Sir Tancred de Hautville, born c970. died aft 1058, a nobleman of Hautville near Cautauces, Normandy, m. firstly c992 Moriella; m. secondly c1013 Fredistand. There among their sons were Robert, Roger and William. Robert "Guiscard" born 1015, became a great General, commanding Norman troops in Italy, and was created Duke of Apulia 1059; King of Naples and had other honors, and died in 1085. His brother Roger became Grand Count Roger I 1089-1102 of Sicily. He was born 1030 and died in 1101/2. Duke Robert and his brother Grand Count Roger were largely responsible for the Norman conquest of Sicily, and the FitzRoger name in South West England is said to have arose from descendants of these brothers. Religious upheaval in Sicily forced Aaron Fitz Rogers, a merchant of Rome, to flee to London where he engaged in business. The Rogers Family were given the right to bear the coat of arms accredited to Grand Count Roger I of Sicily. Aaron Rogers was born in Italy c1260/70.”

As you can see, the line is “said to have arose” from descendants of Robert and Roger, sons of Tancred de Hauteville.

But there is no actual line, and the one we have on Geni was connected to one of the descendants of the brothers who had no issue himself. I disconnected that, but the line still needs to be cleaned up and sourced.

Certainly Normans might have been getting out of Sicily in 1282, when the French were getting massacred in the War of the Sicilian Vespers — which, despite its name, wasn’t a religious war. It started after vespers one day, but concerned the Sicilians getting very tired of being mistreated by the French. At any rate, that a Norman family might be going to England from Sicily isn’t impossible or improbable.

Also, who gave the FitzRogers the right to bear the arms of Roger of Sicily? Was that in Sicily? Did they get them from the Anglo-Normans when they went to London?

But the line of this particular family seem to me to be romanticized. Maybe they were descended from Tancred, but there were many Norman knights who took over Sicily, so that’s not necessarily so. Unless the carrying around the arms of Roger of Sicily is a true thing.

Quick and dirty Wikipedia links:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tancred_of_Hauteville

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Guiscard

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_I_of_Sicily

Those of you who know the book, does LC Hills give sources?

12/13/2018 at 11:02 AM

While I look for the book and reviews etc I’ll drop off this blog

https://boardwalkbarb.blogspot.com/2014/06/the-rogers-tree.html?m=1

Ben Angel had done a lot of work on the Rogers lines at one point, so if you cycle down to the immigrant ancestors, you’ll see his source info. There was mythology to disambiguate.

Also, post the Mayflower passenger arriver profile, it should have contemporary sources cited. The current “authority” is here

http://mayflowerhistory.com/rogers-thomas/

12/13/2018 at 11:05 AM

Amazon link to book (1936)

https://www.amazon.com/Mayflower-Planters-passengers-authentic-gene...

1936, he’s lifting from previous studies, and Hopkins lines have had new information after then.

12/13/2018 at 11:17 AM

Some view into an ebook version, keyword Thomas Rogers

https://books.google.com/books?id=7R9FrcTCswMC&lpg=PA141&ot...

12/13/2018 at 11:30 AM

http://www.deloriahurst.com/deloriahurst%20page/2046.html

Alice Palladini considers Thomas as father of John "iffy". Thomas and Joan were Mayflower passengers.

[5911] per Arianne L.
widow of a Thomas Rogers (not the Rogers of the Mayflower)

per MAYFLOWER INCREASINGS by Susan Roser died between 11 Jan-10 Apr 1621

(So LC Hills made an unwarranted connection into a “historic pedigree”, I think)

12/13/2018 at 11:50 AM

Here’s the author’s Geni tree

Leon Clark Hills

Shirley Edmonds do you know the book ? No “Constance Dudley” myth, that’s a good sign. :)

Anne - I see Rogers Family, Underwood, 1911 as a source on Page 136

https://books.google.com/books?id=7R9FrcTCswMC&lpg=PA141&ot...

12/13/2018 at 11:53 AM

https://books.google.com/books/about/Lineage_of_the_Rogers_Family_E...

Which got a good review from the W&M Quarterly in 1912

12/13/2018 at 11:56 AM

Ancestry search screen

https://books.google.com/books/about/Lineage_of_the_Rogers_Family_E...

Original data: Underwood, John Cox,. Lineage of the Rogers family, England : embracing John Rogers the martyr, emigrant descendants to America and issue. New York: Press of W.E. Rudge, c1911.

The sponsor of the Publication was The John Rogers Society

12/13/2018 at 11:59 AM

Which is here

http://www.johnrogerssociety.org/genealogy.html

And has an Ancestry tree

https://www.ancestry.com/family-tree/tree/61798362/family/familyview

(Somehow I’ll get to your medieval question)

12/13/2018 at 12:04 PM

Lol. I know you will. I’m just waiting.

12/13/2018 at 12:15 PM

The Ancestry tree breaks with Wikipedia here

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tancred,_King_of_Sicily

Giving Tancred an unknown son, “Unknown Rogers III 1175–1193”

https://www.ancestry.com/family-tree/person/tree/61798362/person/34...

Father of Aaron Fitz-Roger 1192–

https://www.ancestry.com/family-tree/person/tree/61798362/person/34...

There is no narrative or sourcing in this tree so far.

12/13/2018 at 12:31 PM

Bogus descent from John Rogers the Martyr

http://dgmweb.net/Resources/GenLin/Gen-RogersJohn-bogus.html

Geni’s Rev. John Rogers "The Martyr"

Rev. John Rogers "The Martyr" is your fourth great uncle's 7th great grandfather. (Really? https://www.geni.com/path/Erica-Howton+is+related+to+Rev-John-Roger...)

And we’ve topped him at John Rogers, of Deritend

John Rogers Society tree gives him parents https://www.ancestry.com/family-tree/person/tree/61798362/person/34...

The Williams Book pages on “children of Tancred”

https://www.ancestry.com/interactive/22868/dvm_GenMono005473-00006-...

https://www.ancestry.com/interactive/22868/dvm_GenMono005473-00006-...

I can download upload to Geni profiles if you like.

12/13/2018 at 12:41 PM

John Cox Underwood, Lt. Gov. of Kentucky on Geni.

Not a trained historian.

12/13/2018 at 1:03 PM

This database cites from the Underwood book and also tops John Rogers the martyr where Geni does.

https://wc.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=richhelm&...

I don’t think they get into medieval - no Tancred - but would need more names.

12/13/2018 at 2:05 PM

So, so far I think you have fluff, and the tree tops at Roger

(Who is noted in the Underwood book as Aaron “or” John FitzRogers, based on who knows what garble)

http://www.myhubbardmtn.com/family%20htm/rogers.htm

A nicely presented unsourced descent at link above.

12/13/2018 at 2:09 PM

The American immigrant for that register report is John Hall, III

12/13/2018 at 2:19 PM

Elizabeth de Furneaux, Lady Blount

From https://groups.google.com/forum/m/#!topic/soc.genealogy.medieval/0o...

The identity is easily found in Miscellanea Genealogica et Heraldica,
Series III, Volume III, pp. 272-276.

Sir John Blount's second wife was Elizabeth de Furneaux, daughter of
Sir Simon de Furneaux d. 1351 and his wife Alice, daughter of Sir
Henry de Umfreville of Penmark. ... Elizabeth's daughter Alice was first the wife of Sir Richard Stafford
mentioned above and her second husband was Sir Richard Stury, son of
Sir William Stury, Governor of Guernsey and Jersey.

(And follows some argument about which John Blount)

“John Blount, died 1358, who married Iseult (Isolda is the Latin form),
is a separate and distinct person from John Blount, Knt. (died before
1370), of Hampton (in Hampton Lovett), Worcestershire, Belton,
Rutland, etc., who married Elizabeth, daughter and heiress of Simon
Furneaux, Knt. The heir of the latter John Blount was his daughter,
Alice Blount (died 1414), wife of Richard Stafford, Knt., and Richard
Sturry, Knt.”

——

So - what’s the source of Elizabeth’s second marriage ?

12/13/2018 at 2:27 PM

And https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Rogers-1793 notes

Research suggests that this person may never have existed. See the text for details.
Biography

Aaron FitzRoger is sometimes claimed as the father (or grandfather) of John FitzRoger, and a male-line descendent of Tancred, King of Sicily. In fact, there is little if any evidence for the existance of such a person. He is first described by John Cox Underwood in about 1911.[1] While it is unlikely that he is a complete fabrication by Underwood, it seems likely that Underwood's desire to find what he considered to be a fitting ancestry for John Rogers, the Martyr (and for Underwood himself) lead him to accept even the flimsiest of evidence. Underwood cites no sources, so it is difficult to remove the layers of supposition and wishful thinking to determine whether any kernel of historicity remains.

According to Underwood, Aaron or John — it is unclear whether Underwood believed them to be alternate names for the same individual, or two siblings — was born in the 1260s in Italy to Norman parents, a great grandson of Tancred, King of Sicily. He then moved to England with his family. One son settled near Maidstone in Kent, and the other went to Gloucestershire and Somerset, finally settling in the latter county. The latter son (or a son of his) was supposedly John FitzRoger.[1]

Many recent online genealogies put Aaron's death in 1325–30, in London.[2] Many of the same genealogies put his son's birth in about 1335, when Aaron would perhaps have been in his 70s. It is presumably for this reason that Underwood suggests there may have been an intervening generation.

12/13/2018 at 2:35 PM

For the marriage of John Fitz Roger, Gent., to Dame Elizabeth Blount, Underwood cites Hutchins History of Dorset, Page 250

https://www.ancestry.com/interactive/22868/dvm_GenMono005473-00006-...

Lineage of the Rogers family, England : embracing John Rogers the martyr, emigrant descendants to America and issue Section: Furneaux lineage of the Rogers ancestress. Page 15.

12/13/2018 at 2:40 PM

Biography of that author, Rev. John Hutchins, and his hero wife

https://dorset-ancestors.com/?p=473
http://www.dorsetlife.co.uk/2016/12/hutchins-dorsets-reverend-histo...

Underwood’s Citation does not give the Hutchins volume number.

12/13/2018 at 2:49 PM

Here’s an anyone can read version of Underwood’s work

https://books.google.com/books?id=fnEbAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA272&lpg...

Genealogical and Ancestral Notes: ser. 1, v. 2. 47 families of Robinson ...
By William Hopple Edwards Page 7

12/13/2018 at 3:07 PM

http://www.opcdorset.org/BryanstonFiles/Bryanston.htm Parish records for Bryanston in Dorset begin around 1599, however I presume there are records for this fellow who left a Will:

2. Sir John Fitz Roger, only child of John Fitz Roger, Gent. and Elizabeth de Furneaux, was born in 1385 and died on 4 October 1441. He married Agnes (Mordaunt) de Mereaunt (1415-1441) of Seamer, Suffolk County in 1406 when he was just past the age of 19. He was the manager of the vast Furneaux estates and bought 'Benham-Valence' and other properties in Berkshire and Dorset. He received a Knighthood through recognition of military service performed. He was one of the wealthiest people in his section of England. He and Agnes had two sons, John and Thomas. He died 4 October 1441 at his home at Bryanstone, and is buried at St. Martin's Church there. His will was dated 21 September and proved 10 November 1441. It was at this time the 'Fitz' to the Roger name was dropped and ultimately a terminal 's' added. His second wife was Anne, daughter and heir of Sir Thomas Etchingham, and widow of Dr. Audley

12/13/2018 at 3:30 PM

Here is Richardson’s link for Elizabeth Furneux

https://books.google.com/books?id=VNQKAAAAYAAJ&vq=Furneux&p...

12/13/2018 at 3:39 PM

http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/families/Echyngham.pdf Page 36 for Anne Etchingham, married 1) John Rogers son of John, their son Henry 2) John Touchet, Lord Audley. Her will 1498.

12/13/2018 at 3:47 PM

Lol.

I know if I sicced you on this there would be LOTS to work with.

Here is what I'm seeing:

Y'all are in charge of what happens after the Rogers cross the pond.

Before that, as far as I can see, that there was an Aaron fitzRoger, who came into England from Sicily, at the time that Normans were getting massacred in Sicily, which would be a good time to leave. So far so good.

AND it's not impossible -- that he was descended from Tancred.

BUT we don't know what the line was.

Which did not stop people, as is common, from making up generations and sticking them together so as to fabricate a line to Tancred.

Our practice now is to cut off such lines, and put in notes and curators' notes and all explaining the situation and inviting people to submit primary sources, or citations of primary sources. (After which we do not hold our breaths, as those things do not appear. Because if they existed they'd be being cited. A lot.)

So I'm going to give it a while, and I'll give notice, but I think this is where that's going.

As to what happened to Aaron's descendants -- hey. I'm not even there yet.

12/13/2018 at 4:04 PM

So “... Connecticut Biography”, again, only Gen Underwood as source, Begins their Rogers line at Elizabeth Furneaux. Who is still looking dicey to me but the son existed and managed estates.

https://books.google.com/books?id=JyoEAAAAYAAJ&lpg=RA2-PA239&am...

So that’s where I think we should cut Ancestry, and the connection to Tancred is not currently findable.

12/13/2018 at 4:09 PM

We are in agreement except we can cross ponds:)

Also it is clear that Underwood had an agenda, he was an active proponent of “The Lost Cause.” So he needed glorious ancestors for his John Rogers the martyr (except that John Rogers goes back two generations ...).

The “merchant of London from Italy” is somehow appealing / plausible, but if there was such a fellow, how do you even connect him with our Dorset Estate managers who entered history ?

12/13/2018 at 4:21 PM

I'm concerned about that.

I'm fine with the Merchant of London, Survivor of the Sicilian Vesper War.

But how everhthing gets connected to him I'm not clear on yet.

Lordy I hato romanticization.

12/13/2018 at 4:27 PM

I think it’s too fuzzy to connect. Underwood uses loose language there (“unquestionably! Must certainly be!”) but in the later pedigree entries he’s dry and factual. So he was covering the fuzz with hyperbole.

Fitz Rogers just means “son of a man named Roger,” correct ? And there must have been dozens, hundreds ? Before the “fitz” was dropped? A little late in our Dorset estate managers compared to international London merchant practice?

Also - what is “Aaron” in Italian?

12/13/2018 at 5:21 PM

I can see wanting to descend from Roger l, Count of Sicily

http://www.bestofsicily.com/mag/art411.htm

But it’s a long social way from him to Bryanstone in Dorset. Longer even than the path from Dorset to the 7Th Day Sabbaritans of early Rhode Island.

Showing 1-30 of 68 posts

Create a free account or login to participate in this discussion