Hungarian Names - Magyarisation / Germanic

Hello - I speak Hungarian and am European born. My mom was Hungarian. Everyone in her family had Hungarian names: Erzsébet, Vilmos, Zsuzsanna, Mihály...etc. Those were the names they used. Like most Hungarians, they had nicknames, some standard ones (Bozsi, Vili, Zsuzsi, Misi...), some family inventions. These names shouldn’t be anglicized. Nor should Jewish names be used for people who didn’t use them. My two cents. Julie

Leanne, I agree we need to find a way to reflect the languages and also to include the possible Dutch naming conventions.

This is a worthwhile discussion...

we have the language section in which we can put the names as it is or was used in that language.
as far as I know in Hungary there is a list of names that are legal to use and one need permition if he wants to omit the accent

Dear All,

I am living in Hungary. My mother tongue is Hungarian. If you need help please let me know.

All the best,

Miklós

I agree that this is a problem today, but there were Mans Persons born in Parts of Hungary, that belong to Austria or Slovakia today.

In addition , there are people from Vienna to Budapest pulled or vice versa and therefore
one find the same obituary with German and Hungaron first name

I agree with the proposal. Hungary before 1918 was multilingual, so multiple versions of the forename were common. But this is not unique to Hungary.

I would also add the following principles:
- make sure Geni can find it
- the name in the historical record should always be entered into Geni
- names should not be translated if there is no evidence of their usage
- the duality also exists between Hungarian and Latin as registrars were directed not to use Hungarian in the 1850s
BTW other websites have fuzzy searches and alternative names that happily match Mihaly and Michael.

It is a complex problem, for we have come across a school of thought that favours reversing Magyarised names back to variations in common use in the Germanic speaking countries on Hungary's borders. i am not prepared to provide examples at this juncture, but do wish to say that the study of a significant number of Hungarian name variations rightly excludes names using the diminutive form. That's those ending in -ka like Lacika (= little Laci) or Sarika (= little Sara)

To Miklos Breitner.
Do any of your friends call you Nicholas, and if they do, do you feel, uncomfortable with that name?

To Julie Adam.
Did any of your mother's family (Erzsébet, Vilmos, Zsuzsanna, Mihály) get called by the Germanic equivalent of their names (Elizabeth, Wilheim, Susan, Michael), and if so, how did they feel about that?

Thank you Mike Hollosi
The points you are making are duly noted

When I first started using Geni I used the names I found in vital records, that sometimes lead to a long list of first names, like: Mihály Miksa Mendel Menachem.

Now I use the most common name(s) found in vital records. Additional names and spellings I add to the nickname field.

I mostly use the English language name field, not the Hungarian, sometimes I use the Hebrew one if the Hebrew name is known. I haven't been very consistent in using the language fields, but I try to have all names covered in the nickname field.

I will try to think about using the Hungarian or German language fields when necessary. But when it comes to maiden names and married names, I prefer the European/American style instead of the Hungarian.

Leanne, is it expected that we add a Hungarian language field to all the profiles we manage or that we should at least think about it the next time we add or edit a profile?

I manage many Hungarian profiles without a Hungarian language field, so will be a lot of work to change that. But if someone was known as Mihály, Miksa, Michael and Mendel, this in added in either the nickname field. I think these additional names show up when using Geni search.

I was invited in this thread. I have no opinion about it, as I don't know much about Hungarian naming customs.

I want to keep my grandmother's first name here at Geni as Getruda, because that's the name she used and was known as. Though her birth certificate (and birth record) list her as Gertrud, and some documents spell that as Gertrude. Same thing with her mother Lili.

Since my data has been hijacked by a VERY prolific curator, go ahead and edit/delete/vandalize my tree all you want... It seems anyone without management can alter the data I have posted... I no longer care...

Thanks Geni, for ruining a 46 year long genealogy hobby...

Iva, no expectation of having to change all profiles, only that when a conflict between the profile managers happen, rather than the profile being changed from the Hungarian name to the Germanic name and back again and so on (edit wars), that we use the proposal above.

The first time you might encounter this might be in a merge, where you have merged a family to find that a profile has 2 spouses - Michael and Mihaly. When you merge that one it will give a data conflict to use either Michael or Mihaly. To try to stop edit wars you could use the suggestion above.

Michael Hollosi, I agree with your principals - and would add one more "Geni users need to be able to find it".

Karoly (Karesz) Vandor

Hi All,
I have been researching the history of Hungarian Jews for 35 years. I first processed the demographic of local Jews in Tiszafüred, and made a database with 3400 persons' data.
They used Hebrew or Jewish names in the 19th century and the Hungarian version of the Hebrew or Yiddish given names - for example Léni, Záli, Hani, Fanni, etc. Certain names corresponded to Hebrew or Yiddish names - Ferenc -Efraim, Hermann - Zvi, etc. Later he began to separate the two names from each other. I'm sure that in the 19th century they spoke Yiddish, German and Hungarian as well. I did not encounter German names in these registers. At the family tree / people I manage or where I helped, I wrote the second version of the "Jewish" version, where it was dominant. I usually use the Hungarian language version of the names.

I use what is written on the documents. exampel born as Hermann Pollak, married as Armon Pollak, died as Armin Pajor, to do the research I need all three names. for that reason it would be ok to use all different names on geni; found a file (only in German) with family name changing http://www.ungarndeutsche.de/wp/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Madjaris... and also a book with name changing in the years 1800 to 1893, mostly with birthplace,http://mek.oszk.hu/07400/07431/07431.pdf

To Roy C Grant - no, my family members were Hungarian Jews/ Jewish Hungarians and spoke only Hungarian. I’m talking about my grandfather’s generation (b 1900). My grandfather was Vilmos and nothing else. Not Wilhelm and most certainly not William. He had his Jewish name in synagogue. This was true of the entire family. Btw, they never left Hungary. They all had typical Hungarian names. The only names that might have been taboo were Krisztian and Krisztina, but they do appear in the post-war generation. Maria is common, as is Jozsef. Erzsébet, Géza, Piroska, Karolina, Mihály, István, Andor, Gizella, Jenő.

Thanks for clarifying, Leanne.

Reverting to Pre-Magyarisation names.
(A historical concept that has no place whatsoever in Genealogy)

To briefly refresh minds, there is a school of thought that in the mid 19th century, Hungarian Jewry, or as some would have it, the populous in general, were forced to drop Germanically based names and adopt names that were more Hungarian.

Those that support that theory suggest that by Magyarising, Hungary’s Jewish population in particular were forfeiting their cultural identity. What undermines their argument however is the 1848 Hungarian revolution, where the people of Hungary rose up and fought against the oppression of the Germanic Hapsburgs. For supporting that revolution, there were many who were penalised by having their lives or at least much of their property taken away from them. That being the case, their INITIAL decision to Magyarise their own names and those of their children could have equally been a personal gesture of continued defiance against an oppressive regime. In my opinion, those advocating a return to the Germanic names that were in vogue pre 1848, are not protecting a cultural identity, they are involuntarily returning many within the Hungarian community to their former position of subservience.

This is an interesting topic. Myself being born in Hungary, working as a professional Jewish genealogist, I encounter such name variations quite often. On a family tree maker software I can put as many variations as I can see in a records + I usually put the Hebrew (the synagogue) name in a separate field. I believe the names should not be anglicized and these people mostly used their Hungarian/GErman/Biblical/Yiddish first names when they lived.
The ware of Hungarianization started because people wanted to show loyalty and also they felt proudly Hungarian, especially after the law passed by Kossuth at the end of the 1848/1849 revolt in Debrecen and then the full citizenship law of 1867.
Even though they felt Hungarian, many still used German at home as part of the traditions.

There are Hungarian Geni profiles with all the names spelled in German, even the last names are spelled in German. Let's say that in all records someone's name is Lipót Weisz, on Geni he can be found as Leopold Weiss, although he was known as uncle Lipót by his closest relatives.

I have been struggling with "germanized" Geni profiles, especially if there are no documents or other proof that support the idea that Lipót was actually known as Leopold. The way I solved this is by using the nickname field, but we can also use the Hungarian language field for this.

There are also many Geni profiles of Hungarian Jews that are fully in Hebrew or Yiddish, I think it would really help if we use the Hungarian language field to add their Hungarian names, if known.

What about adding diacritical marks to already existing profiles? Should we just add them (á, é, ó, ő etc.) or add the correct Hungarian spelling as an alternate version in the nickname field? Although I don't see a point to have Mihaly in the Hungarian name field and Mihály in the nickname field. It's different though when Ernő was also known as Erno in the USA.

"although he was known as uncle Lipót by his closest relatives." Well, even though his nephews may have called him Lipót, his uncles probably called him Leopold. That's the problem were trying to solve.

If certain names were used and those managing the profiles provide links to recognised documentary sources to confirm them, those names should occupy the priority position on individual’s Geni profile.

Unsourced probables or possibles are just speculative, and it is they and not the proven name that should be relegated to the area on the profile reserved for nicknames or alternatives. To do it the other way round not only hinders searches, it is a manipulation of factual evidence

I struggle with using "probably known" or "Might have been called" names.

In my opinion, unless we "know" that a particular person was "actually known" by a certain name, it is not correct to put that name in the profile.

My husband's great uncle was Mihaly but when he came to Australia he was known as Michael. So for him it is appropriate to use both names Mihaly and Michael. If he had never come to Australia, he would never have used Michael, so it would not have been appropriate to call him Michael.

I totally agree with you Leanne. None of us were around100 years or so ago to even convert possibles into probables, so it is essential that only the name discovered in archival records is given priority. If managers dispute a name, the argument can easily be settled by both parties providing links to their archival sources so that the names receive parity. (e.g. Janka - Johanna) If one or other party fails to do so, it is their chosen name that has to be considered as speculative, and therefore relegated to a secondary position or removed altogether

Very valuable discussion. A great lot of important points already made.

This is my "2 cents" - (as aptly put ...):

Like many, I usually put most important versions taken from actual documents in the main name field and secondary variants under "aka/nicknames" but usually don't use the Hungarian language setting as so often I'm dealing with individuals who've straddled their lives between several countries belonging to the then Austria-Hungary empire.

However I frequently delve into sources such as the press media of that era. And even those who were known by their family or firm in e.g. Budapest under a Hungarian name might turn up in a newspaper article in e.g. Vienna or Prague under a German equivalent, whether they travel for business or personal reasons or simply stay put but have some sort of reputation outside the immediate area.

An extra point I'd especially like to add here is that some members only enter the unmarried surname of a wife (noticed principally in Hungary-based profiles). This impedes a search for someone under a combination of her initial family name plus the one assumed from her husband, making finding a duplicate difficult - particularly with extremely common names that include hundreds of potential matches.

And, of course, we can all "make mistakes" (I often get completely cross-eyed looking at archaic scrawls on available records) so it's really really good to have sources cited exactly and links to such provided on respective profiles in order that entries can be monitored subsequently for their veracity.

Pip de P. James, yes reading some of these sources can be difficult and it is very easy for anyone to make a mistake. Compounding that is that spelling may not have been consistent - ie I have 3 original certificates from my husbands family and the spelling is different on them all.

Referencing to your source is a great way to be able to easily go to the source particularly if you are queried years after you put the information in. It really helps others too - they can "see" the same information you have and it is easier to work together to interpret the source.

Merging duplicate profiles also has the chance to cause name changes and other issues - and if sources are attached it makes it easier to determine the corrections needed.

When I come across an unusual spelling of a popular first name, I often compare it with the MACSE database that has millions of Hungarian entries. If i don't even find it there, i have to assume that the submitter has made a token error. We all do. If that error is constantly repeated by the same Geni subscriber however, the submitter may not realise that their continued use of that incorrect spelling hides all those profiles where they have used it from anyone else on Geni who is searching for records of their ancestors.