King David of Israel - GENI IS SHOWING TODAY'S JEWS LINKED TO KING DAVID THROUGH ARAB MONARCHS !!??

@Andrea (Andi) Bowe wrote: "i have found geni impossible to use well because it will not allow you to find the closest link and you have no control of whether it says someone is your great grandfather one time and someone's 5 times removed husband's cousin another time."

I agree. I suggest that we be allowed a choice between two paths -- shortest (which may include marriages) and DNA-Only, which may be longer, but is far more intersting to most of us.

Unless one knows who Zedekiahs daughters were and where they went and with whom, one will NEVER know anything of King David’s descendants. Him even having a profile on this site is no more than an illusion.

Private User Dear Jeremy
My research traced the geneological connections of the ancestors of "Imam" Ali Zainul Abedin the son of "Imam" AlHussein ibn Ali (The grandson of Prophet Mohammed PBUH) and Princess Shahrbanu daughter of King Yazdgerd III the last Sassanid king. One of her ancestors King Bahram V's mother is Shushandukht (Susana) daughter of Nathan II the Exilarch of the Jews in Babylon a descendant of Prophet King David and his lineage is known in Jewish sources. On the other hand another ancestor of Shahrbanu is Princess Myrod the Parthian - The -wife of Sassanid King Ardashir I- one of her ancestors through Armenian kings and kings of Iberia in Georgia is Prince Alexander son of Herod the Great and Princess Merimne the Hasmonean (Tribe of Levi). The Sassanid genealogy is partly available through a history researcher at the University of Michigan- Ian Mladjov. This is the link to
his genealogy trees. https://sites.google.com/a/umich.edu/imladjov/home?authuser=0

Hi Private User,

I've heard of Shushandukht, but I'm not expert on that part of history, so I can't evaluate from a genealogical perspective. Do you know if there are primary sources from her time?

Regards,

Jeremy

Private User
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Randy Schoenberg would you mind making a list of all the lines you severed? No to complain, just so that I know where I am no longer connected to 3/4 of my "fantasy" tree. This would be appreciated. Thanks!

Randy Schoenberg Earliest I can now find is Yehoshua Zimri.

I'm guessing some of the earlier Kalonymos profiles didn't check out?

This seems like an excellent basis to move forward from though.

Private User

To connect to the biblical tree there are several ways and several branches, one of them is through Rashi who was a descendant of Joshua Ben Zimri, the problem here, that between Joshua Ben Zimri and Yochanan HASANDLER are separated 22 generations not all names are known.
It is possible to get around this by either opening 22 profiles, or one profile that will connect Joshua Zimri and Yochanan HASANDLER.
I remember there was such a profile, and I do not know who and why it was deleted

Haim Katz - Hachoen Wartski what Randy is trying to do here is to have evidence at each step along the way.

I think there's three "maybe" lines, but we need evidence in each case.

1. The Yochanan HaSandler line. From the early 2nd century to 940CE is a lot more than 22 generations though. More like 40. I don't think we should add a bunch of blank profiles. I'm not sure what the correct way to indicate traditional descent from one person to another is.

2. The Kalonymous family. Even if they're not descended from the Davidic line (I don't know if there are any old traditions about that), they still go way back in history, almost to late antiquity.

3. Various people who supposedly went from Babylonia to Spain during the Medieval era. There's a lot of medieval (and later) forgery in that genealogy though, so we have to be careful.

Am I missing any lines?

Private User

There are several lines that reach the biblical tree, and there is of course the line that connects to Aharon HaCohen ... This lines was cut off a few days ago, I do not know if the developer of the profiles that connected to Aharon had verified information ... One thing is for sure, he was wrong when he wrote the family name Rafa for decades , this is certainly not true.

I tried to verify the information that person added, in my meager ability I was able to verify parts of it, because I have no expertise in the biblical tree, I preferred not to continue checking.

But, one thing is for sure: Rabbi Yekutiel Rapaport, is son after son of Aharon HaCohen (and this information is certain), are all the names that the same person opened up to Aharon HaCohen correct? As I wrote, I was able to verify some of the names, preferring not to proceed to the biblical tree

Private User

Do you have any information on the subject?

Shraga F kahana, Rabbi

You opened the profiles between Rabbi Yekutiel Rapaport and
Ezra the Scribe

Do you have solid evidence for the names you wrote? If so,I would be very grateful if you would write us what information you have, .

Haim Katz - Hachoen Wartski

On the issue of severing hypothetical ancient lineages, I believe the best policy is one that combines elements of skepticism and speculation. If there isn't sufficient documentary evidence for a particular connection than I believe a severance is justified, but I would also hope that the profiles on each side of the cut include a note, either in the 'About' section or as a 'Discussion' keeping alive the speculated connection between the two profiles. This will permit current and future researchers to come up with more evidence one way or the other.

Genealogists have been studying and debating the Dynastic lineage for a long time (by Dynastic (aka Messianic) I refer only to the patriline, son-to-son, line from King David). Our generation of genealogists is the first to have a new research tool available: ydna haplogroup classification. If there be a way to identify the Dynastic lineage in modern populations, I am sure that ydna haplogroups are going to play a large part in the investigation. This method has worked extremely well in the case of the Aharonic-Cohanic lineage (https://www.academia.edu/43340967/Tracing_the_yDNA_Lineage_of_Aharo...) and I have begun to examine similar haplogroup aspects of the Dynastic research: https://www.academia.edu/53234866/Phylogeographic_Origins_of_the_Ju... This is only the beginning of a new chapter in this nascent field and we are lucky to be on the forefront of discovery.

Haim Katz - Hachoen Wartski
The one thing that could impede good progress on deep Jewish genealogy is the simple fact that a substantial portion of the GENI genealogical work was done 10-20 years ago. Earlier proponents of these trees may not be aware of the recent phenomenal expansion of y-haplogroup cladistics (building of the haplogroup tree via genetic testing), and of the importance of identifying the y-haplogroup of these lineages. Somehow there has to be a way of bringing back earlier GENI tree builders for the purposes of obtaining their help with identifying the y-groups on their trees. Ideally, this would be done under the auspices of a Jewish Studies department in a University so that some funding could be obtained to cover the testing costs.

Private User

Thank you very much for the detailed explanation.

Just as there are those who are son after son of Aaron Hachoen (and I am an example of such a person), I am sure there are those who are son after son to King David.

Unfortunately, both in previous centuries, and religious people today, change family trees to show that a certain person is the descendant of someone important in the history Of the Jewish people son after son, the changes they made, make it more difficult for us to study the truth.

A good example of this is Rashi, who according to Naftali Wakstein is probably a descendant of King David through his son Shaftia, but it is through Rashi's mother, people changed the family tree, and showed the connection through his father.

One last thing I should note is (and this annoys me very much): And I will ask for the reference of the CEO of Geni and the curators dealing with the Bible tree: there should be a uniform policy in Geni between Jews, Christians and Muslims ... ,
It is not possible for us Jews to cut whole branches of the family tree (some of which are certainly true) on the grounds that there is not enough evidence to prove them true, while for other religions, nothing is cut, even though their "connection" to King David is based only on their ambition and passion.
There should be a uniform and transparent policy

Thanks for your response
I'm one of the most active people in Geni, I work a lot on the family tree and invest a lot in it..., and as a direct descendant of The Kozker Rebbi I always make sure the information I bring is , based on sources, then after much effort, the branches are cut off one after another. Thousands of hours go down the drain.

Then I ask myself, why bother, in any case All the hard work I put in will be cut at the end.
.
And by the way, about curators on the Muslim side I do not know, but there are very many curators on the Christian side, who give a stage to people's desire to show that they are "descendants" of King David, both they and I know this is not true at all
So, is there a uniform policy between the religions? I doubt it

Erica Howton

The Jewish curators at Geni also admit that they are not really versed in the Bible tree, and indeed for that you need someone who really understands this very very well.
.
So I will ask an innocent question: If the Jewish curators also admit that they do not really understand the subject, why are only the entire branches of the Jews erased, and all the thousands of hours of work I invested erased?

Haim Katz - Hachoen Wartski I supposed we could go cutting elsewhere on the tree as well. :)

For example, I've read historians that say Shushandukt was not a historical person (earliest source seems to be several centuries later). I imagine that there would be *very* angry people if we cut that profile though.

There's also some very sketchy stuff in medieval Spanish profiles. Some of the people claimed to have come over from Babylonia to Spain are conflated from multiple historical people. Some of their descendants are listed as marrying into Spanish nobility (which is actually plausible, since Jewish converts to Christianity in that era were typically adopted by noble families in the process), but the details are presented here on Geni as concrete facts, while the sources clearly indicate speculation.

Jason Scott Wills I don't think there's a point in this case. As far as I know there isn't a specific Geni policy around minimum genealogical evidence.

I think the general approach taken here was necessary. There was a real mess that was getting hard to work with, and now it is feasible to go through one profile at a time and build things back up with evidence along the way.

The problem with Jaim's profiles is that it's a mix. If they were all fraudulent that would actually simplify things! Some are real. Some are completely made up by him. There's also many that appear to come from a book from the 60s that is generally not accepted by other historians.