Francois Joseph Savoie SOLVED

Started by Joseph Bolton on Saturday, September 15, 2018
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PTID:6000000178679731825:6000000173616890340 - how so you account for the documented autopsy?

Mary, Mary...Once bad information gets on the Internet, it takes on a life of its own and proliferates, sometimes until it drives out any good information. Everybody with sufficient experience on the Internet knows this, but not everybody takes it into account (especially if they want to believe the bad information).

I don’t see anything about Savoie in this Vivaldiani study. https://www.cini.it/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Studi-vivaldiani-18-–-2018.pdf

Re https://www.genealogy.com/forum/surnames/topics/savoie/120/

You could contact the author and see if she still holds the same views. Particularly in light of a died young brother (1622 - 1628) and an autopsy report on the six year old duke in 1638.

For http://mpgigi.altervista.org/index.htm

http://mpgigi.altervista.org/index.htm

there’s a link “scivri all’autore” - you could write & ask for source data.

In any event, these sources are:

1 & 2 are the same. Irrelevant unless I’m missing something.
2. 22 year old speculation.
3. Possibly dead link to a 15 year old amateur site.

There is no sign of a coverup.

Mary, you are badly misinterpreting. At best.

However, this looks like a good chart, worth studying.

http://mpgigi.altervista.org/img_fpage/albero_genealogico_1.gif

It would have been nice for Italian Wikipedia to give an edition and page number. Here’s a search inside:

https://books.google.com/books?id=CYx3RU-TBpQC&q=Gaffarelli#v=onepa...

The study you found is not the book, Storia di Torino del cavaliere Luigi Cibrario: A. Fontana, 1846 - 773 pages, which is where Italian Wikipedia got the quote from.

You are looking at a collection of essays about Turin, not the 1846 book by
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luigi,_Count_Cibrario

https://books.google.com/books?id=CYx3RU-TBpQC&vq=dall'arcivescovo&pg=PA87#v=onepage&q&f=false

Storia di Torino del cavaliere Luigi Cibrario: 2. Page 87.

Nel 1638 già vi dimorava la corte, la quale vi si era trasferita per festeggiare la nascita del delfino, quando un male di pochi giorni estinse il picciolo duca Francesco Giacinto; morì di febbre continua il 3 d'ottobre a ore dieci di notte.
Secondo le superstizioni di quell'età, non isvanite del tutto all'età nostra, quella morte si disse pre. nunziata dalla caduta d'una saliera a tavola e dall'apparire d'una cometa caudata. Il fatto è che da lungo tempo era travagliato da una tabe polmo. nare, per cui sempre era stato pallidissimo e debolissimo, usmatico e melanconico. Avea sei anni, e come accade ne’ fanciulli di tempera più debole nel fisico, l'intelletto era svolto più assai che non comportasse l'età; lord Fielding, ambasciador d'Ingilterra, si compiaceva infinitamente della sua tenera affabilità. Preso dal male, disse a Carlo Emmanuele suo minor fratello: Pigliati pur la corona, che io ho finito di regnare.

Moribondo si fece dare il crocifisso: dopo d'averlo baciato finì la vita in queste parole: ora sono contento di morire. Durante la malattia fu cresimato dal nunzio Caffarelli, e gli fu recata a baciare l'insigne reliquia della SS. Sindone dall'abate Scoto, primo elemosiniere, accompagnato dal nunzio e dall'arcivescovo (11).

—-

Google translate:

In 1638 the court already lived there, which had moved there to celebrate the birth of the dolphin, when an illness of a few days extinguished the petiole Duke Francesco Giacinto; he died of continuous fever on October 3rd at ten o'clock in the night.

According to the superstitions of that age, not completely vanished at our age, that death was said to be pre. heralded by the fall of a salt shaker at the table and the appearance of a tailed comet. The fact is that for a long time he had been troubled by a plague. nare, for which he had always been very pale and very weak, usmatic and melancholy. He was six years old, and as happens in children with a weaker physical tempera, the intellect was much more developed than age did not involve; Lord Fielding, ambassador of England, was infinitely pleased with his tender affability. Taken by evil, he said to his younger brother Charles Emmanuel: Take the crown, that I have finished reigning.

Dying man had the crucifix given: after having kissed it he ended his life in these words: now I am happy to die. During his illness he was confirmed by the nuncio Caffarelli, and was brought to him to kiss the distinguished relic of the SS. Shroud by Abbot Scotus, first almsgiver, accompanied by the nuncio and the archbishop (11).

The Subalpine Kingdom Or Experiences and Studies in Savoy ..., Volume 1. By Bayle Saint John. Page 181. https://books.google.com/books?id=U3o5AAAAcAAJ&lpg=PA181&ots=fTzx0_...

Maria Christina had scarcely removed to the new palace in 1638, when her son, the young duke Francesco Giacinto, died at the age of six years —an event foretold by the upsetting of a salt-cellar, and the appearance of a tailed comet!

The historians of the House of Savoy record the sayings of this young prince, and inform us that Lord Fielding, the English ambassador, took much pleasure in his society.

"Delfino" = "dauphin" = heir (i.e. Carlo Emmanuele)
"Picciolo" = modern Italian "piccolo", little.
"polmonare" is one word and means the kid had lung trouble.
"asmatico", not "usmatico" and it means asthmatic (duh).
"che non comportasse" is an example of the Italian "double negative" and should be read as a positive "[his] intellect was much more developed than expected for his age".

Google Translate really doesn't give the flavor of the text!

I’m struck by how public this all was. Ambassadors with access to small children; Christine’s love affairs an open secret; comments about intellect (and lack thereof). What happened to hagiography? :)

You’re not reading the whole article, nor are you understanding the Italian correctly, nor are you chasing the footnotes used by the historian; nor does the historic anecdote from the historian of the Savoie House at the time have anything to do with the entombment. It’s a direct quote from witnesses to his death in 1638.

Other references include the letter from the lover in 1638 reporting Francis Hyacinth’s death, held by the Royal Archives, as referenced by another and different historian.

This is the Ambassador to England who spoke highly of the six year old Duke’s intelligence.

http://cryptiana.web.fc2.com/code/feilding.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basil_Feilding,_2nd_Earl_of_Denbigh

I would look for his letters but they’re in code.

Joking! But you’d have to go to Warwickshire.

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/0da59f61-1a4f-4...

Or you could accept his statement in 1638 was correctly reported.

Mary, please compile the various citations offered from the year 1638.

That is totally not true. Everything I’ve posted has a citation. Read again.

Citation?

According to the Ordini Dinastici Real Casa Savoia, Francois was born in 1622. This is by far the most credible source.

Do you mean that website typo you never verified?

Posting again. The publication date is irrelevant, the citation (source for the data) is.

La Reggenza di Maria Christina, Duchessa di Savoia. Con nuovi documenti
By Augusto Bazzoni. Page 120. https://books.google.com/books?id=aI58aehdAIIC&vq=1638&pg=PA120#v=o...

Look at the last five pages for the many citations offered. They are far more reliable than your puff page.

The age 15 would be a mistake based on the typographical error of 1622 instead of 1632. But it doesn’t matter what it’s called. It’s a mistake, and it should be called to the webmaster’s attention so it can be corrected and no longer mislead you. The site is not archival, it is not cited, it’s purpose is not academic; it’s pretty, well designed, and meets its purpose, which is publicity and fund raising. For verification of dates in history, you go to the historians, not the publicists. The historian who was Christina’s biographer offered citations for primary documents held by the archives of the Kingdom of France. That’s pretty good, and is consistent with all the other reports.

You mean, you don’t take a historian’s for a fact, and you do an internet web site?

I think you need to be talking to a professional historian for understanding vetting. Your local university person is probably fine. Most academics who publish are quite accessible.

Let me know when you’ve done so.

I already did, Mary. You’re standing firm on a typo, and are unwilling to even ask the question of the source. Why?

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